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Routing - A question on opinions from other experts.

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tony_mac

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The intention is that the groups are for interchange purposes only, so the routeing point is Huddersfield rather than Deighton or any other station in the group.
But, that's just guesswork, isn't it? As far as I can gather, a routeing point is (almost!) always referred to by group name, rather than by station name.

What about Bradford, Warrington, Liverpool, etc.?

Or for Middlesbrough? Thornaby is a much more likely interchange point for many journeys.
Darlington to Stockton passes the fare-check at Thornaby, but fails at Middlesbrough, so what then?

I wasn't saying it is definitely valid - but as there isn't any guidance on which station to use, you could use any of them without contradicting the guide.
This was actually suggested to me on here, with the Darlington to Stockton route, and nobody contradicted it then!
 
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clagmonster

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I think in this case, we need to check what the routeing guide actually says, as there is an ambiguity.
4
"If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination
with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point
only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station.
(bit for destination station removed)
• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)"
This is the key part of the argument. All the routeing guide says is that we need to compare the fare from the routeing point, which is the Huddersfield group, not just a specific part of it. Indeed, as far as I am aware no distinction is made between different members of a group, so all are equal. As there is no other instruction, as far as I can see we must be able to choose ourselves which member of the group we use for the fare comparison, so Deighton is a perfectly valid choice, so Brighouse-Huddersfield-Leeds in my opinion is a valid route.
 

glynn80

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This is the key part of the argument. All the routeing guide says is that we need to compare the fare from the routeing point, which is the Huddersfield group, not just a specific part of it. Indeed, as far as I am aware no distinction is made between different members of a group, so all are equal. As there is no other instruction, as far as I can see we must be able to choose ourselves which member of the group we use for the fare comparison, so Deighton is a perfectly valid choice, so Brighouse-Huddersfield-Leeds in my opinion is a valid route.

This has to be the logical interpretation.

There are some routeing points such as the Bristol Group which has five members to the group, two of which contain the word Bristol (Temple Meads to the south and Parkway to the north). Fares to these two stations are obviously going to differ and the Routeing Guide does not specify which of these is to be used when carrying out the fares check process. The only understanding thus is that any member of the group can be utilised and no one member of any group is more important than another in fares checking.
 

yorkie

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Or for Middlesbrough? Thornaby is a much more likely interchange point for many journeys.
Darlington to Stockton passes the fare-check at Thornaby, but fails at Middlesbrough, so what then?
I agree. Darlington to Stockton is valid via Thornaby, there is no question about that, therefore it is automatically valid via Middlesbrough. There is no need to check the fare to Middlesbrough!

If Stockton was a member of Middlesbrough Group (which it isn't) then it would not be valid to double back between Thornaby and Middlesbrough, except on a direct Darlington to Stockton train (if any do that).

However as Stockton is not a member of Middlesbrough Group, there is no issue.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This has to be the logical interpretation.

There are some routeing points such as the Bristol Group which has five members to the group, two of which contain the word Bristol (Temple Meads to the south and Parkway to the north). Fares to these two stations are obviously going to differ and the Routeing Guide does not specify which of these is to be used when carrying out the fares check process. The only understanding thus is that any member of the group can be utilised and no one member of any group is more important than another in fares checking.
I agree. It would have to say something like "the most expensive station in the group" or alternatively it could say "the primary station in the group" (they could then nominate one particular station to be the primary station). There may be another altnernative method to determine a specific station, but none that springs to mind.

In the absence of any defining statement that limits you to a particular choice of station, I cannot see how anyone can impose that choice, therefore Deighton is a valid choice. The fact that booking engines allow travel via Deighton/Huddersfield suggests that the booking engines agree. That doesn't mean the booking engines are always right - we know they are not always right. But they are certainly more often right than they are wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It doesn't specify in the routeing guide what happens when the routeing point is a group, rather than a station.
In this case, Deighton to Leeds passes the fares check rule, so you can say that Huddersfield Group to Leeds is valid for this journey.
The fares check rule doesn't come into it. Deighton is a member of Huddersfield Group. Therefore no fares check to determine appropriate Routeing Points (RPs). It is an RP. I agree it's not clear but the implication is that doubling back within the group is not valid, but in some cases that is rather unfair and probably would not be enforced as it defies common sense.
I thought you were asking about whether a journey from Deighton to Leeds passes the fares check from Huddersfield, which is why I said the fares check rule doesn't come into it.

I now realise you were asking about Brighouse to Leeds, using Deighton (as a member of Huddersfield Group) to Leeds to determine if Huddersfield Group is a valid RP for that journey. I agree that it is.

The implication is that Deighton to Leeds is not valid via Huddersfield (no fares check rule applies and no easement permits doubling back) but Brighouse to Leeds is valid via Huddersfield. This is almost identical to the situation of Cross Gates/Garforth/East Garforth/Micklefield to York not being valid via Leeds, but South Milford to York is valid via Leeds.
 

tony_mac

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I agree. Darlington to Stockton is valid via Thornaby, there is no question about that
Actually, that was my question!
At first glance, it's not the shortest route or a direct train (except on Sundays), and Middlesbrough fails the fares-check so there seemed to be no valid routes at all!
But, Thornaby / Eaglescliffe passes the fares check, and it's also within 3 miles of the shortest route.
The fact that booking engines allow travel via Deighton/Huddersfield suggests that the booking engines agree
I think, as glynn80 said, it's more likely that the system simply don't know about the doubling-back at Deighton - I've seen that before around Birmingham.
 

yorkie

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More confusion!:lol:
Actually, that was my question!
At first glance, it's not the shortest route or a direct train (except on Sundays), and Middlesbrough fails the fares-check so there seemed to be no valid routes at all!
But, Thornaby / Eaglescliffe passes the fares check, and it's also within 3 miles of the shortest route.
Well it is the shortest route within 3 miles even if you include the route avoiding Middlesbrough, but what really matters is that it's the shortest route over which regular services operate. In other words, the existence of the Thornaby avoider doesn't prevent it being the shortest route. So it could be argued that you don't even need to look for mapped routes, and if you don't need to look for mapped routes then you do not need to determine an appropriate RP.

I think, as glynn80 said, it's more likely that the system simply don't know about the doubling-back at Deighton - I've seen that before around Birmingham.
I was referring to a ticket from Deighton not knowing that it is doubling back between Deighton and Huddersfield. I agree that the system doesn't realise that you are doubling back between Deighton and Huddersfield with a ticket from Brighouse but that's allowed anyway by the Group Station rule.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I must say I cannot completely agree with these various interpretations. Although in the case of the Middlesbrough example this may be OK - as there is no direct service. However, in the Brighouse case there are direct trains via 2 different routes, one of which is definately shorter. In this case I cannot understand how it can be interpreted how the fare from Deighton is relevant. Neither train stops at Deighton so you cannot change there. You have to go to Huddersfield if you wanted to go this way. In which case I would argue that it is perfectly reasonable to take the Huddersfield fare into account.

I know Metrocards are different as they are zonal, but the last time I was at Brighouse a few months ago, the timetable poster said that to go via Huddersfield to get to Leeds you would need a zone 5 Metrocard even though Brighouse is in zone 4. Now if using a Metrocard you would need the higher priced higher zones ticket to go that way, then surely the same could apply with ordinary tickets?
 

tony_mac

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I think that zonal tickets are different.

As there is no rule to tell you which fare to use in a group, what alternative would you suggest?

Personally, I think that the quickest route should be valid for 'Any Permitted' tickets anyway.
 

clagmonster

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The reasoning behind my thoughts is that Deighton is a member of the Huddersfield group just as much as Huddersfield is, and nowhere is it stated that any particular station in the group must be used for the fare comparison. I assume that whoever wrote that part of the routeing guide either didn't consider this idea, or assumed that in all cases fares from all members of a routeing group must be the same.
You state that neither train stops at Deighton. Surely that is the entire point of the group stations, in order to allow doubling back between stations where trains don't stop for interchange purposes. I would also state that using my argument, it would be an equally valid interpretation to take the Huddersfield fare into account, as there is nothing to state that we can't.
This is another case where the fares system has become ambiguous through poor wording. It would be quite simple to rectify this by rewording the routeing guide slightly, or alternatively, as I believe you yourself have suggested for other fares in West Yorkshire, making the current Brighouse-Leeds fare (and I suspect other fares from Brighouse) route not Huddersfield, and increasing the price of the route any permitted to be the same as, or slightly higher than, the Huddersfield fare.
I also agree that a zone1-4 Metrocard would not be valid for Brighouse-Leeds via Huddersfield, as it is a zonal fare and not a point to point season.
 

yorkie

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A routing point for Brighouse is Huddersfield Group. There are no instructions that a particular member of the group has to be chosen. Deighton is a member of Huddersfield Group and the fare from Deighton is the same as Brighouse, therefore Huddersfield Group is an appropriate routeing point.

It is valid to take a train to Deighton, and then a train from Deighton to Leeds. If there was no Group, then you could not double back between Deighton and Huddersfield. However Deighton and Huddersfield are members of Huddersfield Group, therefore double-backing within the group (ie between Deighton and Huddersfield) is permitted.

There is no other logical interpretation.

If the claim is that Huddersfield Group is not an appropriate RP, then the question is: why not? where does it say a particular member station must be used? I cannot find such a statement anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that zonal tickets are different.
.
No doubt about that, they do not use the Routeing Guide. In effect they have their own replacement - a zonal map.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I was wondering about Wigan NW to Bury as the Best / Fastest route by map would be WIGAN NW - Warrington Bank Quay - Man Pic-Bury rather than take the Longer / slower route from Wallgate Ill be using me Priv Discount for the Ticket.

The only permitted route from Wigan to Manchester is the direct one (map GM), the through ticket from Wigan to Bury is to Metrolink Zone A. Railcard discounts are not permitted on through tickets to Metrolink destinations (the only discount allowed is for children - 50%).

The only way to go via Earlestown and/or Warrington is by splitting the ticket.
 

Multiple Unit

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Would I be right in thinking that from Chester I can Change at Warrington for Birmingham considering that CTR-B-HAm is a Limited Service, Though what Im looking at is Buying ticket from WIGAN to W-TOn and a Ticket from CTR to B-Ham making it much cheaper.
 

yorkie

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Would I be right in thinking that from Chester I can Change at Warrington for Birmingham considering that CTR-B-HAm is a Limited Service, Though what Im looking at is Buying ticket from WIGAN to W-TOn and a Ticket from CTR to B-Ham making it much cheaper.
Are you talking about a Chester to Birmingham ticket?

What you need to do is go to http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/ and follow the instructions.

In Section B we see that Chester and Birmingham Group are routeing points, so no need to determine appropriate routeing points or do any fares comparisons, we can go straight to Section C.

In Section C we see that permitted routes from Chester to Birmingham Group can be found on the following maps:-
BC
BC+CH
BP+LC
BP+LC+CL
CC
CC+CL
WS

In Section D we need to look at the maps, you can see the maps here:-
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/Maps.asp

If you can find a map combination that allows travel via Warrington, without double-backing in accordance with the rules, then it is valid. If you cannot, then it isn't.

I've not got time to check the maps now, but if you think you have found a map combination that allows it but are unsure, reply here and I'll check.
 

krus_aragon

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CC+CL does the job:

Chester-Runcorn-Warrington on map CL
Warrington-Crewe-...-Birmingham on map CC

Although with regards to the 'infrequent' service from Chester to Birmingham, there's an hourly service via Wrexham and Shrewsbury.
 
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