RRB with non-working chair lift

[sprunt]

And this it the issue.

Accessibility of transport is a worthy goal but it can lead to a worse service for everyone - e.g. whilst this was not a busy coach, what if it had been. Should 60 people be delayed or 1. The coach is not unsafe or unusable for 59 of those people.

Perhaps it should be taken out of service so that all 60 of the people will make a noise and it'll be more difficult for the operators just to sweep their ignorant disregard of wheelchair users under the carpet.

 

[randyrippley]

Reported to the traffic commissioners

Upon googling based off the information available, I would guess it's an Ex Stagecoach Volvo B7 Plaxton Profile.

That looks like a good guess

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes it should be but I can tell you with absolutey certainty that 99% of drivers do not check any wheelchair facilities as part of the morning walk around check.

I'm sure the DVSA and traffic commissioners will be very interested to know who the operators whose 99% of drivers do not check the ramp operation are.

Accessibility of transport is a worthy goal but it can lead to a worse service for everyone - e.g. whilst this was not a busy coach, what if it had been. Should 60 people be delayed or 1. The coach is not unsafe or unusable for 59 of those people.

It's not a "worthy goal". It's enshrined in law.

The coach was not fit for service, end of. If people still can't get that after all these years then I'm afraid that's their problem.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm sure the DVSA and traffic commissioners will be very interested to know who the operators whose 99% of drivers do not check the ramp operation are.

The issue is, you'll find it's common across all operators. Even the most highly regarded. It takes too much time for most drivers to want to do.

 

[scrapy]

It should be noted that getting a taxi within an hour that can convey an electric wheelchair is near impossible especially outside big cities.

Taxis that are accessible, generally only have to be accessible for manual wheelchairs, very few will take electric wheelchairs.

We don't know if the bus arriving in 15 minutes was going to do an extra trip to convey the passenger to Kirkby (quite possible in the 45 min layover) or whether the passenger would be expected to wait for the scheduled departure time of that bus, effectively an hour later.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The issue is, you'll find it's common across all operators. Even the most highly regarded. It takes too much time for most drivers to want to do.

I assume you're referring solely to coaches with wheelchair lifts here, rather than service type vehicles fitted with a manual fold-out ramp? For the latter, such checks take barely any time at all.

 

[Benjwri]

I believe northern have gone for an operator with a cheap and cheerful response

To be fair it can be extremely hard to source enough replacement buses, and increasingly so they have to resort small operators.

I think there has been somewhat of an overreaction here given the details we have. The bus driver was obviously not intentionally driving with a broken ramp, as he made an effort to unlock it, rather than just saying it was broken. Whether he checked it that morning we do not know.

Regarding whether it should have been taken out of service, this seems like a bit of cutting off your nose despite your face. I agree at the end of the journey the bus should have been taken out of service, but when it’s a case of 1 person can’t travel, or everyone can’t travel including the original person, I feel the answer is fairly obvious.

The only failure I can really see is not trying to arrange a taxi at least.

 

[randyrippley]

To be fair it can be extremely hard to source enough replacement buses, and increasingly so they have to resort small operators.

I think there has been somewhat of an overreaction here given the details we have. The bus driver was obviously not intentionally driving with a broken ramp, as he made an effort to unlock it, rather than just saying it was broken. Whether he checked it that morning we do not know.

Regarding whether it should have been taken out of service, this seems like a bit of cutting off your nose despite your face. I agree at the end of the journey the bus should have been taken out of service, but when it’s a case of 1 person can’t travel, or everyone can’t travel including the original person, I feel the answer is fairly obvious.

The only failure I can really see is not trying to arrange a taxi at least.

Realistically getting a taxi capable of carrying a battery wheelchair to Rainford is going to take a long time, assuming you can find one who's prepared to do it by invoice rather than cash.
Rainford is a little village and taxis are like hen's teeth

 

[RJ]

I’ve worked as station staff for many years and been to efforts not to be on shift when the service is being operated by rail replacement buses as the entire day is going to be spent consoling aggrieved passengers.


A fairly common occurrence is ex-London buses with the centre doors isolated. The ramp is under those doors so they intentionally send buses out that can’t deploy the ramp. In these cases I’ve been ready to request an accessible taxi, but sometimes the passenger in the wheelchair is able to board through the front doors. Taxis aren’t always available, the buses should really have functioning ramps.

When coaches turn up, they aren’t always equipped with a ramp or the driver can’t or won’t deploy it.

The standby bus is usually either “broken down”, “needs a tacho break” or the driver doesn’t know the route. More often than not they are unavailable to cover when a vehicle that can’t carry wheelchairs turns up.

I’ve worked as a coordinator and when working in that capacity, the above problems have a tendency to resolve themselves with a quickness as if by magic!

If rail replacement is deemed a revenue stream then some effort should be made to ensure the ramps work.

 

[Robertj21a]

I’ve worked as station staff for many years and been to efforts not to be on shift when the service is being operated by rail replacement buses as the entire day is going to be spent consoling aggrieved passengers.


A fairly common occurrence is ex-London buses with the centre doors isolated. The ramp is under those doors so they intentionally send buses out that can’t deploy the ramp. In these cases I’ve been ready to request an accessible taxi, but sometimes the passenger in the wheelchair is able to board through the front doors. Taxis aren’t always available, the buses should really have functioning ramps.

When coaches turn up, they aren’t always equipped with a ramp or the driver can’t or won’t deploy it.

The standby bus is usually either “broken down”, “needs a tacho break” or the driver doesn’t know the route. More often than not they are unavailable to cover when a vehicle that can’t carry wheelchairs turns up.

I’ve worked as a coordinator and when working in that capacity, the above problems have a tendency to resolve themselves with a quickness as if by magic!

If rail replacement is deemed a revenue stream then some effort should be made to ensure the ramps work.

Quite, but it's largely down to cost. Many Rail Replacement buses in provincial areas are, nowadays, supplied by small private operators - it used to be a good income stream for the major operators (with more buses available/replacements if needed etc).
The bigger operators often feel that the income is now too little, but the small operator (with few suitable buses) is more desperate to keep income rolling in, even if it's low.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically getting a taxi capable of carrying a battery wheelchair to Rainford is going to take a long time, assuming you can find one who's prepared to do it by invoice rather than cash.
Rainford is a little village and taxis are like hen's teeth

You'd be able to get one from a Liverpool operator within 20-30 minutes or so. It is a small village but it's hardly Altnabreac or something.

 

[markymark2000]

using a joystick controlled electric wheelchair.

Heres one thing that I forgot to ask earlier on, how big was the wheelchair? Irrespective of the lift, there could be more issues here as coach lifts and bus ramps are officially only rated for 300kg.

I also know that some of the electric wheelchair varieties don't have clasp points. If the chair can't be clasped into the coach, it can't safely travel.

Not relevant to this situation, but some firms refuse to take electric wheelchairs because of the battery. Given what I know, I'd hate to be a wheelchair user on rail replacement as there's so nany issues which can be faced. There's only a few times I've helped a wheelchair user and gone 'that went perfectly'. If it's not a drivers attitude (generally trying to cut corners to save time), it's a coach issue or company policy issue. If it's not that, the location isn't suitable (no kerb for the bus ramps or not level for coach lifts). It's so sad to see and it's something that I campaign on a lot internally. Sadly I'm a lone voice in that.

 

[randyrippley]

Heres one thing that I forgot to ask earlier on, how big was the wheelchair? Irrespective of the lift, there could be more issues here as coach lifts and bus ramps are officially only rated for 300kg.

I also know that some of the electric wheelchair varieties don't have clasp points. If the chair can't be clasped into the coach, it can't safely travel.

Not relevant to this situation, but some firms refuse to take electric wheelchairs because of the battery. Given what I know, I'd hate to be a wheelchair user on rail replacement as there's so nany issues which can be faced. There's only a few times I've helped a wheelchair user and gone 'that went perfectly'. If it's not a drivers attitude (generally trying to cut corners to save time), it's a coach issue or company policy issue. If it's not that, the location isn't suitable (no kerb for the bus ramps or not level for coach lifts). It's so sad to see and it's something that I campaign on a lot internally. Sadly I'm a lone voice in that.

It was a pretty hefty unit, one of those outdoor joystick controlled machines like Steven Hawking used. 7-8" wheels or thereabouts
If a taxi were used, you'd need a converted van with ramps or lift. No way you could lift it in manually, even if there were two of you
Thinking about it after the event I'm not sure there was any safe way of locking it in place to the bus floor

 

[markymark2000]

It was a pretty hefty unit, one of those outdoor joystick controlled machines like Steven Hawking used. 7-8" wheels or thereabouts
If a taxi were used, you'd need a converted van with ramps or lift. No way you could lift it in manually, even if there were two of you
Thinking about it after the event I'm not sure there was any safe way of locking it in place to the bus floor

Anything over 300kg can't go on buses or coaches as the lifts/ramps are not approved for it and so there would have been a risk of the chair breaking the lift while in the air. Sadly this is one of the huge 'discresion' areas as seemingly no one anywhere is ever trained to know the weight of the wheelchairs. I responded to the DFT accessibility consultation saying we need an approval scheme and wheelchair users carry a card to say what the weight of the chair is and what category it is. Then there is never any dispute over whether it is suitable for buses, coaches or trains etc etc.

To get a taxi which accommodates them kind of vehicles, even in big cities, you are looking 2-3 hours at times as it's quite as specific vehicle then that you are looking for. It's one of the few things that you can't plan for on rail replacement and until you see a chair like it, no one will ever understand the issues. Even passenger assist, if you say you have an electric wheelchair, some will say 'that will easily get into [type of vehicle]' but the differences in size between all of the electric wheelchairs is huge.

Thinking about it after the event I'm not sure there was any safe way of locking it in place to the bus floor

Normally the straps are kept in the lockers or sometimes (in the case of Levantes with the 'magic seats', the straps are attached to the bottom of the 'backrest' chair).

 

[richw]

It was a pretty hefty unit, one of those outdoor joystick controlled machines like Steven Hawking used. 7-8" wheels or thereabouts
If a taxi were used, you'd need a converted van with ramps or lift. No way you could lift it in manually, even if there were two of you
Thinking about it after the event I'm not sure there was any safe way of locking it in place to the bus floor

It’s possible that it wasn’t a permitted unit from your description.
In law only certain classes of chairs need to be accommodated.
If they’re capable of over a certain speed, or over a certain size they aren’t covered by legislation and also aren’t permitted due to vehicle design.
However this is all irrelevant to the original post. The ramp either has to be working or the vehicle has to be carrying a psvar exemption certificate to work rail replacement

 

[Mak1981]

It’s possible that it wasn’t a permitted unit from your description.
In law only certain classes of chairs need to be accommodated.
If they’re capable of over a certain speed, or over a certain size they aren’t covered by legislation and also aren’t permitted due to vehicle design.
However this is all irrelevant to the original post. The ramp either has to be working or the vehicle has to be carrying a psvar exemption certificate to work rail replacement

I could be wrong but I don't believe there are classes of wheelchairs in law that must/not be carried it's simply maximum overall weight capacity of ramp, which is usually 300kg and most powered wheelchairs usually are designed to be below that weight inc the user, I believe it is different for mobility scooters where tgere is different classes of mobility scooters which can/cannot be carried

 

[richw]

I could be wrong but I don't believe there are classes of wheelchairs in law that must/not be carried it's simply maximum overall weight capacity of ramp, which is usually 300kg and most powered wheelchairs usually are designed to be below that weight inc the user, I believe it is different for mobility scooters where tgere is different classes of mobility scooters which can/cannot be carried

I think I may be muddling them up, but it was related to size and speed. In my head I think the speed was 8mph. Size will be chair plus user being 300kg.

 

[GusB]

Upon googling based off the information available, I would guess it's an Ex Stagecoach Volvo B7 Plaxton Profile.

That was what I thought when I did an image search; quite a few Profiles popped up. It struck me that the operator has quite a mixed bag of vehicles, which I imagine would make it very difficult to ensure that drivers are trained on every type.

 

[djw]

I think I may be muddling them up, but it was related to size and speed. In my head I think the speed was 8mph. Size will be chair plus user being 300kg.

The Use of Invalid Carriages on Highways Regulations 1988 (SI 1988/2268) defines three classes of invalid carriages:

• Class 1 - not mechanically propelled
• Class 2 - mechanically propelled at no more than 4 mph
• Class 3 - mechanically propelled, capable of exceeding 4 mph but not exceeding 8 mph

Most of the differences are irrelevant to this discussion, this is a UK-only concept and, indeed, many users will not know what Class their powerchair or scooter is. Indeed, I wonder how many Class 3 users know that the law requires them to engage a speed limiter to hold their speed below 4 mph when operating on a footway (i.e. pavement) and that their chair must be registered with DVLA (though it does not have to display registration plates, be taxed or have third-party insurance). A rear-view mirror is compulsory on Class 3, but most Class 3 powerchair users take the mirror off because it gets in the way and does not give an especially useful rear view.

The 1988 Regulations originally set the maximum unladen mass as 113.4kg for Classes 1 and 2, and 150kg for Class 3. However, The Use of Invalid Carriages on Highways (Amendment) (England and Scotland) Regulations 2015 (SI 2015/59) raised the limit for all classes to 200kg when the usual user has a clinical, postural, hygienic, caring or nursing need for additional equipment. The 2015 amendment was primarily to allow for chairs with multi-axis powered seating systems or sit/stand systems, which can exceed 150kg - some chairs have lift, tilt, recline and powered footrests.

The nameplate on a wheelchair will typically contain the maximum user mass and the maximum total loaded mass, but it is very unlikely to contain the unladen mass of a particular chair. Most modern powerchairs are modular - the prescriber or user selects a base model, then the configuration for that particular chair. As modular chairs can be reconfigured after leaving the factory, the manufacturer will not show a nameplate unladen mass as it could be inaccurate. If you add powered lift to a chair that did not have it before, you are going to add a fair amount of mass to the chair for the lift mechanism and the actuator that drives it. Upgrading the batteries on a chair will also add a significant amount of mass - most chairs still use lead-based batteries (gel cells or AGM that are rated for deep discharge).

On top of all this, many users will not know their mass accurately, especially those whose mobility is most affected. It can be quite an ordeal to weigh someone who cannot transfer without being hoisted.

Most chair/user combinations are going to be under 300kg - most chairs are under 150kg and so are most users. However, I can think of one chair that is up to 180kg from the factory with a 160kg maximum user mass - and that is before you add on heavy accessories such as gel-filled pressure relief cushions. It would be better if PSVAR lifts and tiedown systems were rated at 350kg, but I appreciate this will increase costs whilst only making the vehicle accessible to a small number of additional users.

There will always be some who cannot fit on an accessible coach, especially bariatric users using heavy duty chairs, who are likely to be too heavy and too wide.

 

[david1212]

The Use of Invalid Carriages on Highways Regulations 1988 (SI 1988/2268) defines three classes of invalid carriages:

• Class 1 - not mechanically propelled
• Class 2 - mechanically propelled at no more than 4 mph
• Class 3 - mechanically propelled, capable of exceeding 4 mph but not exceeding 8 mph

Most of the differences are irrelevant to this discussion, this is a UK-only concept and, indeed, many users will not know what Class their powerchair or scooter is. Indeed, I wonder how many Class 3 users know that the law requires them to engage a speed limiter to hold their speed below 4 mph when operating on a footway (i.e. pavement) and that their chair must be registered with DVLA (though it does not have to display registration plates, be taxed or have third-party insurance). A rear-view mirror is compulsory on Class 3, but most Class 3 powerchair users take the mirror off because it gets in the way and does not give an especially useful rear view.

The 1988 Regulations originally set the maximum unladen mass as 113.4kg for Classes 1 and 2, and 150kg for Class 3. However, The Use of Invalid Carriages on Highways (Amendment) (England and Scotland) Regulations 2015 (SI 2015/59) raised the limit for all classes to 200kg when the usual user has a clinical, postural, hygienic, caring or nursing need for additional equipment. The 2015 amendment was primarily to allow for chairs with multi-axis powered seating systems or sit/stand systems, which can exceed 150kg - some chairs have lift, tilt, recline and powered footrests.

The nameplate on a wheelchair will typically contain the maximum user mass and the maximum total loaded mass, but it is very unlikely to contain the unladen mass of a particular chair. Most modern powerchairs are modular - the prescriber or user selects a base model, then the configuration for that particular chair. As modular chairs can be reconfigured after leaving the factory, the manufacturer will not show a nameplate unladen mass as it could be inaccurate. If you add powered lift to a chair that did not have it before, you are going to add a fair amount of mass to the chair for the lift mechanism and the actuator that drives it. Upgrading the batteries on a chair will also add a significant amount of mass - most chairs still use lead-based batteries (gel cells or AGM that are rated for deep discharge).

On top of all this, many users will not know their mass accurately, especially those whose mobility is most affected. It can be quite an ordeal to weigh someone who cannot transfer without being hoisted.

Most chair/user combinations are going to be under 300kg - most chairs are under 150kg and so are most users. However, I can think of one chair that is up to 180kg from the factory with a 160kg maximum user mass - and that is before you add on heavy accessories such as gel-filled pressure relief cushions. It would be better if PSVAR lifts and tiedown systems were rated at 350kg, but I appreciate this will increase costs whilst only making the vehicle accessible to a small number of additional users.

There will always be some who cannot fit on an accessible coach, especially bariatric users using heavy duty chairs, who are likely to be too heavy and too wide.

All very relevant and something I can relate to with an engineering background and through the years knowing several powered wheelchair / scooter users.
The gross weight is very relevant but so are the dimensions both for the PSVAR lift and the onboard position and restraint. Once onboard while a scooter user would or almost without exception at least could move to an adjacent seat a powerchair user may well need to remain their chair.
In the former case while time consuming the scooter could be brought back down the lift and carried in the luggage area. Of course it still has to be secured - up to 150kg on wheels can not be loose. The issue here is that if the passenger is either unaccompanied or not assisted by someone to be responsible for the chair that responsibility passes to the RRB driver.

 

[richw]

All very relevant and something I can relate to with an engineering background and through the years knowing several powered wheelchair / scooter users.
The gross weight is very relevant but so are the dimensions both for the PSVAR lift and the onboard position and restraint. Once onboard while a scooter user would or almost without exception at least could move to an adjacent seat a powerchair user may well need to remain their chair.
In the former case while time consuming the scooter could be brought back down the lift and carried in the luggage area. Of course it still has to be secured - up to 150kg on wheels can not be loose. The issue here is that if the passenger is either unaccompanied or not assisted by someone to be responsible for the chair that responsibility passes to the RRB driver.

Every PSVAR coach I’ve driver haven’t been certified for scooters, only wheelchairs. Scooters are folded in the locker

 

[Snow1964]

Heres one thing that I forgot to ask earlier on, how big was the wheelchair? Irrespective of the lift, there could be more issues here as coach lifts and bus ramps are officially only rated for 300kg.

I think the ramps on platforms (the ones that fold in half and usually clipped to a wall) have a similar rating. Some might even be 250kg.

As average adult is nearer 70-80kg so expecting a ramp to hold equivalent of 4 people is not unreasonable.

 

[Starmill]

You'd be able to get one from a Liverpool operator within 20-30 minutes or so. It is a small village but it's hardly Altnabreac or something.

Indeed. Not difficult. Just a case of a bill for doing this which obviously would be quite a bit as they'd be charging for some dead mileage.

A fairly common occurrence is ex-London buses with the centre doors isolated. The ramp is under those doors so they intentionally send buses out that can’t deploy the ramp. In these cases I’ve been ready to request an accessible taxi, but sometimes the passenger in the wheelchair is able to board through the front doors. Taxis aren’t always available, the buses should really have functioning ramps.

Indeed they should. Sending a bus off the depot to work such a service with the doors knowingly isolated is an offence on the part of the bus operator, and possibly others such as the vehicle's driver. This isn't mitigated by the provision of alternative road transport that might be accessible either. In theory the police should investigate, but I think that we all know what sort of response this would get if reported to the police.

The provision of alternative road transport might be acceptable mitigation if the ramp failed after the bus entered service but before it could safely deposit its passengers somewhere where they could be provided with onward travel.

The customer has a contract with the railway company in this case. It's unlawful for the railway company, or their bus supplier, to refuse travel to someone just because the wheelchair lift or ramp isn't working. That could be mitigated by the provision of an accessible taxi. Anyone who is disabled who is refused travel should complain, and if they're not offered a reasonable settlement should sue for damages. They might be a victim of crime too so they could even be eligible for legal aid in the case.

 

[Man of Kent]

I think the ramps on platforms (the ones that fold in half and usually clipped to a wall) have a similar rating. Some might even be 250kg.

As average adult is nearer 70-80kg so expecting a ramp to hold equivalent of 4 people is not unreasonable.

The Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000 (SI2000/1970) state that a lift on a PSV has a minimum SWL (Safe Working Load) of 300kg. It also gives the maximum dimensions of a wheelchair to be accommodated as 700mm wide and 1200mm long (and 1350mm tall, including the occupant). Unless amended by subsequent regulations, anything outside these dimensions does not have to be accommodated on a bus or coach. I don't know if these are the same dimensions as specified for rail vehicles.

 

[djw]

The Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000 (SI2000/1970) state that a lift on a PSV has a minimum SWL (Safe Working Load) of 300kg. It also gives the maximum dimensions of a wheelchair to be accommodated as 700mm wide and 1200mm long (and 1350mm tall, including the occupant). Unless amended by subsequent regulations, anything outside these dimensions does not have to be accommodated on a bus or coach. I don't know if these are the same dimensions as specified for rail vehicles.

PRM TSI, which sets the limits for heavy rail in the UK, is pretty much the same, other than 1375mm height is allowed - see Appendix M of Commission Regulation (EU) 1300/2014 (note that the link goes to the latest version applicable in the UK - the later changes are post-Brexit).

I think the ramps on platforms (the ones that fold in half and usually clipped to a wall) have a similar rating. Some might even be 250kg.

300kg is the minimum for PRM TSI compliance - paragraph 5.3.1.2 in the Annex to Commission Regulation (EU) 1300/2014.