Rust (on signaling diagram)

[Jan Mayen]

On Open Train Times Map, the line between Waterloo (East) and Cannon Street has the word 'RUST'. Would this mean it is now unusable? Or could an EMU still use, but generate a lot if sparks?

 

[Noodle]

Think the concern would be track circuit issues.

 

[The Puddock]

It's a reminder to the signaller that they'll need to take certain precautions if signalling a train over that section of line. Rusty rails in themselves don't cause a line to be signed out of use, you just have to be careful when you eventually send a train along them if that line has train detection provided by track circuits.

 

[30907]

It's a reminder to the signaller that they'll need to take certain precautions if signalling a train over that section of line. Rusty rails in themselves don't cause a line to be signed out of use, you just have to be careful when you eventually send a train along them if that line has train detection provided by track circuits.

Indeed - I saw a FB photo today or yesterday of a train that had just used the curve owing to a signalling failure.
EDIT: on Blood and Custard Discussion Group FB page, posted 13 April

 

[Horizon22]

I'm fairly sure The Metropolitan link (or whatever the exact name is) has been out of action for years now.

 

[FR510]

The Met Reversible hasn't been used regularly really since the London Bridge rebuild was finished. Used to be daily ECS workings round there, but not any more. With the frequency of Thameslink services going past there isn't the pathways for the SE ECS workings to go that way.

 

[takno]

Iirc everybody wanted to just get rid of it and turn it into carriage sidings, but getting rid of the route was too much trouble, so they just recreated the connection in the new signalling system. Whether anything could actually ever be routed round it is a different question

 

[Annetts key]

As The Puddock says, the RUST shown in a a TD berth/display/box on RTT typically is an (unofficial) reminder to a signaller that they need to carry out the relevant rule book rule in track circuit areas if the rail head is rusty or contaminated. This is because a rusty or contaminated rail head may result in the track circuit not detecting trains, hence less (automatic) protection from the signalling system.

 

[Tim M]

It would be perfectly possible to overlay axle counters on this connection to overcome a track circuit failure. This was done on Hong Kong MTR back in 1988 where a track circuit failure on a headshunt point would have stopped the job. Just need to add an ‘OR’ function in the interlocking. Subject to need of course.

 

[LAX54]

As The Puddock says, the RUST shown in a a TD berth/display/box on RTT typically is an (unofficial) reminder to a signaller that they need to carry out the relevant rule book rule in track circuit areas if the rail head is rusty or contaminated. This is because a rusty or contaminated rail head may result in the track circuit not detecting trains, hence less (automatic) protection from the signalling system.

Not allowed past the previous controlled signal, until the train has passed clear of the signal ahead of the affected track circuits.

 

[Horizon22]

Not allowed past the previous controlled signal, until the train has passed clear of the signal ahead of the affected track circuits.

So essentially double block working for that section?

 

[LAX54]

So essentially double block working for that section?

Yes, for all intents and purposes, if that section was 'protected' by an Auto, then it could of course give a false clear, holding the prvious controlled stops that scenario

 

[Chris Hamilton]

A reminder to treat the section as failed and use the relevant parts of rulebook TS11 to pass traffic over it, namely double blocking and ensuring the train is complete before sending another train in - doesn’t need to be the driver, just a competent staff member. I’ve been asked to observe tail lights by the signaller when at the exit to a leaf fall area during my investigations into some wrong side failures.

There are some lines (such as Dalmeny to Winchburgh near Edinburgh) where that situation is so regular (now that the daily Queen Street to Kirkcaldy train no longer runs) that a train briefly vanishing from the panel is no longer attended by the S&T (at least not as a priority), though still reported to them. These are recorded by Incident Control, the Signalbox and the S&T on a “Rust Register”.

If a train goes into a rusty section and vanishes without the relavent rule book sections being applied, it will be treated as a “Wrong Side Failure” and investigated as such. Which, depending on the length of failure, can mean an entire shifts work for an S&T team.

The easiest way to rectify it is to just send a train through under restrictions. Especially if it’s a long section.

 

[Annetts key]

If the rails of a track circuit (TC) are already known to be rusty, it should not be treated as a new failure. If after engineering work, where the P.Way have renewed the rails, a signaller is not required to report the TC or TCs.

Where I used to work, there is a freight yard. At first, the signallers kept reporting wrong side failures on multiple track circuits. but with only two trains a week (each a run around move), the rust was never going to get worn away.

Needless to say, the S&T attended. No guessing what they found. All reported TCs worked correctly when tested unless tested on the rusty head of the rail. Soon an instruction was issued such that the full Signalling Failure Investigation (SFI) wrong side failure testing no longer needed to be carried out on TCs that were known to be rusty.

Now, the signallers no longer report any of the relevant TCs and just work to the relevant part of the rule book.

Yes, if the infrastructure owner has some money available, axle counter(s) can be provided in place of the affected TCs. But if the line is not used often, it’s unlikely any money will be available...

 

[modernrail]

Out of interest, how easily does rust shift? Will one train do it or does it take quite a few (and does it depend on how long the rust has been there for?)

 

[Annetts key]

It depends on a number of factors:

• How rusty the rail head is (which includes how long it’s been rusty for, worse is new rail that has been lying around unused for a long time),
• How often trains run over it,
• What type of trains are running it,
• Weather conditions,
• Are trains accelerating or braking, or normally going at a steady speed over it,
• Type of track circuit equipment.

The best service trains for clearing rust are fully laden heavy freight trains, especially if they brake while travelling over the affected section. Even so, it normally takes multiple trains.

Even for a branch line with a regular DMU service and occasional freight train, new rail may take four or more days before enough of the rust has worn away such that the TCs work reliably.

In comparison, a main line that has been closed to all traffic for three days, but during which the weather has been wet/raining, three or four HSTs would be enough to clear the light surface rust.

 

[modernrail]

It depends on a number of factors:

• How rusty the rail head is (which includes how long it’s been rusty for, worse is new rail that has been lying around unused for a long time),
• How often trains run over it,
• What type of trains are running it,
• Weather conditions,
• Are trains accelerating or braking, or normally going at a steady speed over it,
• Type of track circuit equipment.

The best service trains for clearing rust are fully laden heavy freight trains, especially if they brake while travelling over the affected section. Even so, it normally takes multiple trains.

Even for a branch line with a regular DMU service and occasional freight train, new rail may take four or more days before enough of the rust has worn away such that the TCs work reliably.

In comparison, a main line that has been closed to all traffic for three days, but during which the weather has been wet/raining, three or four HSTs would be enough to clear the light surface rust.

Interesting, thank you! I had no idea about this complication with rust on the rails.

 

[philthetube]

Out of interest, how easily does rust shift? Will one train do it or does it take quite a few (and does it depend on how long the rust has been there for?)

At Uxbridge sidings there was a siding which had not been used for a long time, myself and one other driver had to run a train in and out of it in order to clear the rails, it took for trips,8 journeys before the signals picked up and sis before they were considered reliable.