Same Country - Another World

[21C101]

A holiday. In the UK, but a UK where trains and buses are fully integrated.

Turned up at Belfast Bus station to get a bus to Armagh.

First surprise. Its also the main railway station.

Second surprise, you have to buy your ticket from the ticket office, not the bus driver.

Third Surprise. On asking if I could get a local bus back part of the way instead of the express bus was offered a whole of Norniron "Travelcard" for £1 extra including rail travel.

(The rail/bus station at Belfast is being replaced with a new one with 8 platforms and a bigger integral bus station soon).

Fourth Surprise, the bus to Armagh is a full blown express coach not a bus (Destination blind was claiming to go to Cork, although it actually went to Monaghan where there used to be a connecting bus to Cork years ago).

So, soon on the motorway to Armagh. Fifth surprise. Armagh (pop 15,000) has a proper bus station with indoor heated waiting room, toilets and. ticket office. Basicallyna rail station for buses.

On the way back, got some broad gauge rail travel in and as we had a "travelcard" went on to Bangor taking advantage of Belfasts "Laganlink" Cross city railways that are similar vintage to Thameslink. Fifth surprise. Bangor also has a bus and rail combined station with all the usual faclities.

Basically all the trains and buses are operated by the same authority and fully integrated.

If you live in Armagh you are not greatly inconvenienced by the railway being closed because there is a perfectly civilised alternative running hourly (and connecting with train at Portadown if you are going to Dublin)

Isn't that what should have been done in GB when Beeching was let loose?

 

[yorksrob]

It's impressive that the authority runs a good alternative to the railway and keeps the railway running. In Beeching terms, that would be an excuse for ditching the railway line.

West Yorkshire has some good bus stations. Some are very handy for rail connections. Others are on opposite sides of town !

Sounds like NI runs its public transport as a good PTE (but without the Westminster fetishes of railway privatisation and bus deregulation).

 

[GardenRail]

It's impressive that the authority runs a good alternative to the railway and keeps the railway running. In Beeching terms, that would be an excuse for ditching the railway line.

West Yorkshire has some good bus stations. Some are very handy for rail connections. Others are on opposite sides of town !

Sounds like NI runs its public transport as a good PTE (but without the Westminster fetishes of railway privatisation and bus deregulation).

Pity many of West Yorkshire's bus stations are frequented by 3rd rate cowboy bus companies. Wakefield, and Globe Holidays for example. Pontefract and Watersons. When it comes to buses, I'd sooner a large corporate company, with well maintained buses be in charge. Arriva or Stagecoach. Sadly, Globe Holidays and Watersons won't convince me to leave the car at home.

Can't speak for NI but, it sounds like everything a transport network should be.

 

[yorksrob]

Pity many of West Yorkshire's bus stations are frequented by 3rd rate cowboy bus companies. Wakefield, and Globe Holidays for example. Pontefract and Watersons. When it comes to buses, I'd sooner a large corporate company, with well maintained buses be in charge. Arriva or Stagecoach. Sadly, Globe Holidays and Watersons won't convince me to leave the car at home.

My local route's Arriva, and to be fair they do ok.

But I suppose, that's the luck of the draw with deregulation, and presumably NI has never been forced down that road.

 

[21C101]

My local route's Arriva, and to be fair they do ok.

But I suppose, that's the luck of the draw with deregulation, and presumably NI has never been forced down that road.

You soon realise that there are subtle signs that you are actually in another country governed by its own laws (albeit mostly clones of England/Wales). Train symbols not double arrows pointing you to a station. Wigwag flashing red lights below no entry signs on motorway slip road ends. Green ringed 20 signs (advisory 20mph limit) and different banknotes in cashpoints (although the Bank of England ones are just as common).

Various other er "cultural" differences that can change either side of a crossroads but I won't go there, suffice to say painting large and detailed pictures on the rendering on the outside of buildings is a popular passtime as is hanging out flags.

 

[yorksrob]

You soon realise that there are subtle signs that you are actually in another country governed by its own laws (albeit mostly clones of England/Wales). Train symbols not double arrows pointing you to a station. Wigwag flashing red lights below no entry signs on motorway slip road ends. Green ringed 20 signs (advisory 20mph limit) and different banknotes in cashpoints (although the Bank of England ones are just as common).

Various other er "cultural" differences that can change either side of a crossroads but I won't go there, suffice to say painting large and detailed pictures on the rendering on the outside of buildings is a popular passtime as is hanging out flags.

Northern Ireland always is, and always will be its own entity.

But I'm particularly interested in how the lack of privatisation/deregulation of public transport has affected the transport system in comparison to Great Britain.

 

[telstarbox]

My local route's Arriva, and to be fair they do ok.

But I suppose, that's the luck of the draw with deregulation, and presumably NI has never been forced down that road.

Possibly in the 1980s/90s when deregulation was happening in GB, NI wasn't the most attractive environment for commercial operators?

 

[telstarbox]

You soon realise that there are subtle signs that you are actually in another country governed by its own laws (albeit mostly clones of England/Wales). Train symbols not double arrows pointing you to a station. Wigwag flashing red lights below no entry signs on motorway slip road ends. Green ringed 20 signs (advisory 20mph limit) and different banknotes in cashpoints (although the Bank of England ones are just as common).

Various other er "cultural" differences that can change either side of a crossroads but I won't go there, suffice to say painting large and detailed pictures on the rendering on the outside of buildings is a popular passtime as is hanging out flags.

Don't forget all the breads!

Have you got an example of the wigwags?

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly in the 1980s/90s when deregulation was happening in GB, NI wasn't the most attractive environment for commercial operators?

Quite possibly.

The interesting question is whether NI has been worse off for it.

 

[21C101]

Northern Ireland always is, and always will be its own entity.

But I'm particularly interested in how the lack of privatisation/deregulation of public transport has affected the transport system in comparison to Great Britain.

Yes it is a very interesting "control" and one that deserves more detailed observation and comparison.

 

[21C101]

Don't forget all the breads!

Have you got an example of the wigwags?

Pic of one here

File:"No entry" sign, Belfast - geograph.org.uk - 2112565.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

 

[21C101]

Quite possibly.

The interesting question is whether NI has been worse off for it.

From what I saw: Never, Never, Never!

(although I suspect English Taxpayers pay for it....)

 

[Falcon1200]

Other differences in NI include bank notes, and my Costa loyalty card not being valid in Belfast!

But I'm particularly interested in how the lack of privatisation/deregulation of public transport has affected the transport system in comparison to Great Britain.

Could one reason for having good express coaches be the savaging of the NI rail network in the 1960s, arguably even worse than the Beeching era?

 

[yorksrob]

Could one reason for having good express coaches be the savaging of the NI rail network in the 1960s, arguably even worse than the Beeching era?

Undoubtedly that has lead to NI leaning more towards bus transport. I'm more interested in how the whole system fits together, rather than express coaches per se.

 

[bangor-toad]

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip over here and got to see some of the transport we have.

As with anything in NI, transport matters are a bit confusing with the past heavily weighing in on how things are now. The NI rail system had it's own version of Dr Beeching. It was Sir Henry Benson and his 1960's recommendation was to close all of NI rail system except the lines to Bangor and Larne and the line towards Newry (and then Dublin). That didn't completely happen but much was lost. Lots of buses were introduced instead. Much was made of some of what appear to be blatant sectarian decisions.
The NI rail system was basically kept going on minimal investment. Buses / coaches were used as they were more flexible and NI socio-economic factors meant there was possibly a higher demand for buses than in England.
Then there were the Troubles. There's no need to go into details of that here but many, many buses were destroyed. It'd have been a brave commercial operator who could have worked with that. The bus network was always kept in public control. The Good Friday Agreement came after the political drive to privatise transport networks. The GFA brought changes and growth but there was never a drive to privatise NI buses and rail.
Translink quietly got on with delivering services and over the last 25 or so years has made many improvements.
(There's a *lot* missed out from that version of history but it should give a context)

So currently we have Translink who offer the transport services.
There's NI Railways. The longer distance coaches are branded Goldlink. Medium distance bus services are branded Ulsterbus and there are various metro style services in the cities & towns. All road transport are just brands and there are no ticket restrictions between the brands - you buy a ticket for where you want to go and use whatever the services are that go there. On the whole the branded buses / coaches stick to the services they normally provide but occasionally you get unexpected vehicles turning up with no fuss - an almost new Goldlink coach on a local bus from Belfast to Bangor was nice though...

There are many areas where integration works well.
You've seen the integrated train/bus stations. Some are really quite nice. (The Bangor building has a heated floor - it's actually very pleasant in the winter months whilst waiting there). The same staff help for both rail and road.
Tickets are so, so much simpler than in the mainland. I have never found an instance of where a split ticket saves money in NI. You buy for the journey you want, either as a paper based ticket or on the app or you get one of the various travel cards. Fares, by mainland standards, are cheap. The one day iLink card for all of NI, including travel in the peaks, is only £17.50 (£1 less if you already have the card). That's so much less than most of the tickets I use in England.
Rail replacement buses are simpler. It's all the same company and the costs are so much less as it's reallocating resources rather than needing to bring in external contractors. And it's using the buses / coaches that are already being used so the assets are not sitting idle. For short notice / emergency disruption it's also much easier to find alternatives.

It's not all perfect though.
The rail and road divisions don't really co-ordinate timetables. There are many situations where the trains are timed to arrive just in time to see the bus / coach leave. Economic reality does apply though - many local bus services stop in the late afternoon / early evening as there isn't a demand for them. There are still some sectarian pressures brought to bear by the various political groups - anyone not familiar with NI would have been completely baffled by the recent machinations on the route of a potential new Glider bus service.


I would say the benefits of the integrated system massively outweigh the small problems.
Come and visit and have a look for yourself!
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[telstarbox]

Pic of one here

File:"No entry" sign, Belfast - geograph.org.uk - 2112565.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Thanks!