Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[miklcct]

There are two trains, both departing at 16:34, from Guildford to London Waterloo on South Western Railway. One is a reservable fast train and the other is a local slow train.



This shows that confusion can really happen if a reservation coupon only uses the time and destination as the identifier. Such reservation can happen for an advance ticket from Guildford to the North because the fast train is reservable, and catching the slow train by mistake can lead to missing the long distance train from London.

 

[zwk500]

A similar situation occurs at Milton Keynes Central, where there are 2 16:55 trains to Euston, both operated by West Midlands Trains (branded LNR). One is non-stop the other a slow train.

The simple answer to both of these is to change the fast train so that it is advertised to depart 1 minute earlier, thereby creating a clear 16:33 and 16:34 to Waterloo, or 16:54 and 16:55 to Euston. The more complicated answer (although still perfectly feasible) is to use train or service numbers to distinguish each train.

 

[swt_passenger]

…The more complicated answer (although still perfectly feasible) is to use train or service numbers to distinguish each train.

Which is exactly what the OP has been fishing for with a number of recent questions in different discussions.

 

[tspaul26]

Or just print the arrival time and station as used to be done on the old ‘boarding card’ style tickets.

No train numbers needed.

 

[Horizon22]

This is the sort of situation where a "via" should be included to reduce any confusion.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is the sort of situation where a "via" should be included to reduce any confusion.

Or in this particular case the platform suggested by the journey planner might be a good choice?

 

[Horizon22]

Or in this particular case the platform suggested by the journey planner might be a good choice?

That too, but people are easily confused so whatever helps!

 

[tspaul26]

This is the sort of situation where a "via" should be included to reduce any confusion.

Potential confusion between an itinerary ‘via’ and a route restriction ‘via’.

It also wouldn’t work where the fast and stopping trains take the same route via the same intermediate station.

Or in this particular case the platform suggested by the journey planner might be a good choice?

Platforms can change though.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

At Guildford show the stopping service as a train to Vauxhall. No need to mention Waterloo.

 

[swt_passenger]

Potential confusion between an itinerary ‘via’ and a route restriction ‘via’.

It also wouldn’t work where the fast and stopping trains take the same route via the same intermediate station.

Platforms can change though.

Indeed. But the train from Portsmouth is never going from P1. The OP isn’t going to be caught out anyway, unless he loses his memory before he goes for the same train again…

 

[skyhigh]

That is a supplementary departure board that clearly shows the calling points and the time at each station.

I suspect the main boards will have had a comment such as 'Express service' or 'Local stopping service'? on each service?

 

[tspaul26]

Indeed. But the train from Portsmouth is never going from P1. The OP isn’t going to be caught out anyway, unless he loses his memory before he goes for the same train again…

Indeed, this smacks of someone seeking a problem to which his preferred ‘solution’ can be applied.

 

[Paul Kelly]

At Guildford show the stopping service as a train to Vauxhall. No need to mention Waterloo.

That doesn't solve the problem in the OP where the passenger has a reservation on the 16:34 to Waterloo and doesn't know which train it is on.
Edit: it would solve it if the reservation was on the fast train, but the reservation might be on the slow train due to different quota availability

 

[miklcct]

That doesn't solve the problem in the OP where the passenger has a reservation on the 16:34 to Waterloo and doesn't know which train it is on.
Edit: it would solve it if the reservation was on the fast train, but the reservation might be on the slow train due to different quota availability

The slow train is unreservable. However, it will be a problem if a passenger holding a reservation on the 16:34 fast train takes the slow one by mistake.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed. But the train from Portsmouth is never going from P1. The OP isn’t going to be caught out anyway, unless he loses his memory before he goes for the same train again…

No, but if the OP is told his train will leave from Platform 5, and there's no 16:34 from platform 5 (maybe it's been moved to 6 instead) then confusion in an unfamiliar passenger is understandable.

That doesn't solve the problem in the OP where the passenger has a reservation on the 16:34 to Waterloo and doesn't know which train it is on.

The simplest solution does resolve this very neatly though - adjust the advertised times. OPs reservation would then be on the 16:33 to Waterloo and the 16:34 would be understood to be a clearly separate train.

 

[Horizon22]

Is this a recent phenomenon due to a timetable adjustment? And is it permanent? If the answer to both of these is "yes", then I'm sure a comment to station staff or even SWR twitter or another contact method might be helpful as the issue might not even have been identified and a "false time" with a 1 minute customer allowance can be included for clarity.

 

[tspaul26]

The simplest solution does resolve this very neatly though - adjust the advertised times. OPs reservation would then be on the 16:33 to Waterloo and the 16:34 would be understood to be a clearly separate train.

This can cause other issues, such as broken connections.

The simplest solution is to print the arrival time on the reservation coupon. The system is obviously capable of this because it was done previously.

 

[Jan Mayen]

0733 Three Bridges to London Victoria, one from platform 2, the other from platform 4, same calling points. The one from platform 4 gets in first.

 

[mmh]

There are two trains, both departing at 16:34, from Guildford to London Waterloo on South Western Railway. One is a reservable fast train and the other is a local slow train.

View attachment 112285

This shows that confusion can really happen if a reservation coupon only uses the time and destination as the identifier. Such reservation can happen for an advance ticket from Guildford to the North because the fast train is reservable, and catching the slow train by mistake can lead to missing the long distance train from London.

Were you confused? Presumably not otherwise you'd be saying you got a train you didn't intend to.

This sort of thing has been reported as a problem for 30 odd years. It began on the internet on uk.railway on usenet, where seasoned travellers would claim confused tourists at Norwich or Cambridge ended up in Liverpool rather than London. I don't recall a single report of that actually happening.

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

 

[zwk500]

This sort of thing has been reported as a problem for 30 odd years. It began on the internet on uk.railway on usenet, where seasoned travellers would claim confused tourists at Norwich or Cambridge ended up in Liverpool rather than London. I don't recall a single report of that actually happening.

The issue of potential confusion of totally separate stations is a very different one and has been discussed many times before.

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

For these kind of routes the old Southern Region style 2-digit route code isn't a bad idea. Or at least a 'metro/mainline' branding.

 

[A S Leib]

At Guildford show the stopping service as a train to Vauxhall. No need to mention Waterloo.

Iirc Watford DC services are usually shown as South Hampstead services at Watford Junction, and don't some further southwest South Western stations already do that (but for Clapham / Woking)?

 

[boiledbeans2]

The old style dot matrix LED boards at the station clearly say "via Woking", "via Cobham" or "via Epsom"

The OP posted a new TV screen, which I guess was rolled out very recently (I don't remember seeing that screen when I was at Guildford station recently), so I'm sure improvements could be made. They could display "London Waterloo via Woking" instead of just "London Waterloo".

I can't clearly remember what's displayed on the dot matrix LED boards on Sundays, when both fast and slow services go "via Woking". If I remember, it says "Stopping Service" for the slow service on the boards?

 

[swt_passenger]

The old style dot matrix LED boards at the station clearly say "via Woking", "via Cobham" or "via Epsom"

The OP posted a new TV screen, which I guess was rolled out very recently (I don't remember seeing that screen when I was at Guildford station), so I'm sure improvements could be made. They could display "London Waterloo via Woking" instead of just "London Waterloo"...

As far as I can tell, some of the slow train calling pattern, (including all the stops and the arrival times at intermediate stations), will be listed on the next page, 2 of 3. I still think it’s pretty obvious which is the slow train.

 

[yorkie]

If the arrival times are shown, I don't see an issue; passengers can then see which is due in first.

Alternatively if appropriate via points are shown (or similar messaging; I recall seeing "Local stopping service" used in lieu of a geographical via point for some Northern services) then again, there is no issue.

 

[raspberrypeel]

Had this once at Crewe.

Two trains both heading to London Euston, with the same departure time. One was LNWR, the other was Avanti West Coast.

 

[brad465]

At Bromley South, Victoria trains are shown as "This train is fast to Victoria" if they run non-stop, avoiding confusion with the all stations via Herne Hill (and also the semi-fasts calling at Denmark Hill, which usually gets their later than a fast as well). Perhaps some form of advertisement like this would also help for situations as described in the title?

 

[skyhigh]

Perhaps some form of advertisement like this would also help for situations as described in the title?

I expect there was on the main boards. The one pictured is a supplementary board that popped up at NR stations over the last year or so (and aren't all that great really, one at Leeds showed departures from London Victoria for a few months).

 

[etr221]

My thought: if it matters which train is which, then there has to be a manner in which they can be distinguished. And it needs to be consistently applied, so that all concerned know (and know that they know) which is the relevant train.

What this thread shows is that - with just time and a destination (and often people only know their origin and destination points and times) - it's not easy...

 

[cactustwirly]

No, but if the OP is told his train will leave from Platform 5, and there's no 16:34 from platform 5 (maybe it's been moved to 6 instead) then confusion in an unfamiliar passenger is understandable.

The simplest solution does resolve this very neatly though - adjust the advertised times. OPs reservation would then be on the 16:33 to Waterloo and the 16:34 would be understood to be a clearly separate train.

Or just advertise the stopping train as going to Earsfield rather than London Waterloo.

Like TfL rail at Reading has a destination of Ealing Broadway rather than London Paddington

 

[43096]

This sort of thing has been reported as a problem for 30 odd years. It began on the internet on uk.railway on usenet, where seasoned travellers would claim confused tourists at Norwich or Cambridge ended up in Liverpool rather than London. I don't recall a single report of that actually happening.

So why do the departure boards at Norwich say "Lime Street Liverpool" if it's an urban myth?