San Francisco Trams etc

[Shinkansenfan]

The trolleybus system lasts there because of some extreme gradients in the city, which are beyond the abilities of diesel buses, especially when loaded. It was the same for the cablecars, which initially lasted, until they became a feature in their own right, because of some of the steep hills they climb, and (more importantly) descend, whilst holding on to the cable.

Alas, SFMTA is planning to phase out their electric trolleybuses (ETB) in favor of battery electric buses (BEB). By 2035.

https://www.sfmta.com/projects/all-electric-fleet-transition
The links to planning documents on the right side of the webpage provides more details.

Ride these electric trolleybuses while you can in SF!

They are joining Boston and Cambridge (the other Cambridge) in replacing ETBs with BEBs.

 

[Taunton]

Alas, SFMTA is planning to phase out their electric trolleybuses (ETB) in favor of battery electric buses (BEB). By 2035.

https://www.sfmta.com/projects/all-electric-fleet-transition

Hey ho, I wish them well starting a battery bus with a full load on this uphill street ... :

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[stuu]

Hey ho, I wish them well starting a battery bus with a full load on this uphill street ... :

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Why would that be an issue? As long as they specify buses with the same power output as the current trolleybuses then there is no problem (although Muni does seem to be terribly run so this isn't a given)

 

[edwin_m]

Why would that be an issue? As long as they specify buses with the same power output as the current trolleybuses then there is no problem (although Muni does seem to be terribly run so this isn't a given)

The extra weight of the battery, if on the driven wheels, would actually improve the "tractive effort". The issue would be if the battery capacity is too low or the regeneration isn't efficient, and it runs out of charge before the end of the day. Especially in winter, which includes summer in SF per Mark Twain, when the heating will be draining the battery too. Then they might wish they'd kept some of the wires for in-motion charging...

 

[Taunton]

Why would that be an issue? As long as they specify buses with the same power output as the current trolleybuses then there is no problem (although Muni does seem to be terribly run so this isn't a given)

But there is a huge power draw starting on such a gradient, beyond any current diesel bus (which is why San Fransisco's trolleybuses lasted), quite noticeable at the substation.

Experience with emergency batteries on current trains, specified to last for a given output but repeatedly (as AAIB reports show) quite incapable of handling that, shows there's a lot of marketing delusion bluff in the battery industry.

 

[edwin_m]

But there is a huge power draw starting on such a gradient, beyond any current diesel bus (which is why San Fransisco's trolleybuses lasted), quite noticeable at the substation.

Experience with emergency batteries on current trains, specified to last for a given output but repeatedly (as AAIB reports show) quite incapable of handling that, shows there's a lot of marketing delusion bluff in the battery industry.

The power draw on starting on a gradient is theoretically zero, as power equals force times speed and speed is zero. In practice there are inefficiencies so some power will be drawn, but any practicable vehicle will have enough power to start moving.

Power becomes more significant as speed increases, so (other things being equal) a higher power vehicle will be able to go faster up a particular hill.

However, the post you responded to says "as long as they specify buses with the same power output", although the bus will probably be heavier and therefore require more power to maintain the same speed on the hill.

 

[MisterSheeps]

a new north-south tunnel

Has been under construction since at least 2015, still not open, appears on maps (snip atrached) as 'future central subway', is intended to go from Caltrain to Chinatown. Separately are plans to extend Caltrain to the Salesforce/Transbay terminal

SFMTA is planning to phase out their electric trolleybuses

I went on the 24 route from Castro along Divisadero to Geary, there was an accident ... the battery backup trolleybus happily diverted down, along & back up a steep hill to avoid it, it only being necessary to stow & reattach the collector pole

The L Taraval street LRV route (West Portal to the Zoo) has been shut, with bus replacement, and Embarcadero - West Portal shuttle; there are sewer works which hace cut the tracks in several places, and the overgead wiring has gone. I don't know if this is permanent closure. Does anyone onow more?

 

[Taunton]

Has been under construction since at least 2015, still not open, appears on maps (snip atrached) as 'future central subway', is intended to go from Caltrain to Chinatown.

I know it's been a long time, but finally opened a couple of weeks ago, initially weekends only - so the reverse of Crossrail. The stations in scale and tunneling etc remind me of Cutty Sark on the DLR, while the perforated station wall linings look straight out of the Crossrail architects' book.

Here's a news clip (note the suit the Muni spokesman is wearing towards the end) :

'This is big': What it's like to ride SF Muni's new Central Subway; Unofficial opening this weekend

Following cost overruns and a four-year delay, the nearly two-mile extension of Muni's T-Third line is finally connecting the city's South of Market neighborhood with Chinatown.

abc7news.com

 

[Shinkansenfan]

I went on the 24 route from Castro along Divisadero to Geary, there was an accident ... the battery backup trolleybus happily diverted down, along & back up a steep hill to avoid it, it only being necessary to stow & reattach the collector pole

Worked as intended!

The L Taraval street LRV route (West Portal to the Zoo) has been shut, with bus replacement, and Embarcadero - West Portal shuttle; there are sewer works which hace cut the tracks in several places, and the overgead wiring has gone. I don't know if this is permanent closure. Does anyone onow more?

This is a temporary closure.

I know it's been a long time, but finally opened a couple of weeks ago, initially weekends only - so the reverse of Crossrail. The stations in scale and tunneling etc remind me of Cutty Sark on the DLR, while the perforated station wall linings look straight out of the Crossrail architects' book.

During initial operations where the service is not joined up to the T Line, no fares are charged.

 

[Springs Branch]

The L Taraval street LRV route (West Portal to the Zoo) has been shut, with bus replacement, and Embarcadero - West Portal shuttle; there are sewer works which hace cut the tracks in several places, and the overgead wiring has gone. I don't know if this is permanent closure. Does anyone onow more?

This is a temporary closure.

This closure is associated with a major upgrade for Taraval Street and the western end of the L-line.

SFMTA website has project details at this link.

Wikipedia also has an entry on the Taraval Improvement Project at:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_Taraval#L_Taraval_Improvement_Project

For its first 100 years in operation, the L Taraval operated similar to a bus, with rail vehicles receiving no priority over any other vehicle, obeying all stop signs, and stopping frequently when requested or when flagged down by passengers waiting at marked stops on the sidewalk. Because the rails were laid in the center of a four-lane roadway, passengers boarding or exiting must cross an active traffic lane. Often drivers would not stop for crossing passengers, leading to many being hit and injured getting off and on the L Taraval over the decades.

Starting in the early 2010s, Muni began proposing major changes to the L Taraval corridor to increase pedestrian safety and speed up trains, which would prove to be controversial.

The plan, eventually named the L Taraval Improvement Project, would dedicate the center lanes to rail vehicles, consolidate stops, and where stops remain, add traffic islands between the transit-only lane and the general traffic lane, giving passengers a protected area to exit or wait for the L Taraval. The project would also replace many of the stop signs along the route with traffic signals with transit priority, add additional traffic calming measures like curb extensions, replace the worn rails and overhead wire, along with sewer and water line replacements.

The plan was controversial because adding traffic islands would require the removal of street parking along Taraval, worrying nearby merchants, who feared less parking would reduce traffic in their businesses. The loss of parking along Taraval would be offset by moving parking spaces and meters to side streets and by converting side streets to angled parking to increase density.

 

[Bikeman78]

Hey ho, I wish them well starting a battery bus with a full load on this uphill street ... :

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Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

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To be fair, the electric buses in Cardiff whizz up the steep hills. Unlike the Dennis Darts that used to crawl up at under 10 mph. Especially if they had to stop part way up.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Worked as intended!

yes, was impressive ... i mentioned this mainly because @Taunton seemed sceptical about battery buses on hills. To me, this technology seems a reason to enlarge the use of trolleybuses, which were hitherto paralysed by obstructions necessitating diversion away from the wires

a major upgrade for Taraval Street

thank you

 

[AdamWW]

yes, was impressive ... i mentioned this mainly because @Taunton seemed sceptical about battery buses on hills. To me, this technology seems a reason to enlarge the use of trolleybuses, which were hitherto paralysed by obstructions necessitating diversion away from the wires


thank you

Wiring the centre of a city and using it to charge buses during the central part of the route and letting them go on battery on the periphery seems like a sensible scheme to me.

Less wiring to maintain, but much smaller batteries on buses and therefore lighter vehicles as they don't have to go a full day on one charge.

Getting back to San Fransico trams - is there anywhere that they share a route with trolley buses? I thought I saw that when I was there some years ago but wasn't sure.

 

[Taunton]

Getting back to San Fransico trams - is there anywhere that they share a route with trolley buses? I thought I saw that when I was there some years ago but wasn't sure.

Sure they do. Much of the way up the main Market Street, among others. I've seen it written elsewhere that the streetcars use the trolleybus wires, but that's not correct, they are separately wired (unless you count the span wires, and indeed the whole overhead knitting, as one). It wouldn't work because the streetcars use trolley wheels, while the trolleybuses use skids, and their overhead pointwork would not be compatible. Furthermore, the streetcars and trolleybuses run in adjacent lanes, each overtaking the other without issue as they progress, or run alongside, which would not be possible if they shared the positive wire. Google shows views of the multiple wires.

 

[Springs Branch]

Sure they do. Much of the way up the main Market Street, among others. I've seen it written elsewhere that the streetcars use the trolleybus wires, but that's not correct, they are separately wired (unless you count the span wires, and indeed the whole overhead knitting, as one).

To add a cherry to the cake, along the busiest downtown section of Market St (between about Fremont and 8th Street), not only do pairs of trolleybus wires run alongside the single streetcar wire, but there are also double pairs of trolleybus wires provided in each direction.

It's a sort of Fast Line and Slow Line arrangement for trolleybus wiring (but for different routes which all stop along the street, not for express running) - and with the additional, separate F-line tram wires down the middle of the street. It seems the double-up is necessary because of the sheer number of trolleybus services using that part of Market Street.

A diagrammatic map of the trolleybus wiring in downtown SF at this link shows the section, labelled 'inner' and 'outer' in blue, together with the Muni service numbers using each. You might need a street map or some familiarity with the city to understand this scheme (and remember one line on the diagram represents a pair of trolleybus wires, the F-line tram overhead is not shown, and they drive on the wrong side of the road across the pond).


Speaking of trolleybus versus tram trolley wires and @AdamWW's question - one North American streetcar operator, the former Cincinnati Street Railway in Ohio, was very unusual in using a pair of trolley wires, one live, one earth, similar to trolleybuses. So, the company's original tramcars and later PCC cars were equipped with a pair of trolley poles. According to www.streetcar.org :-

Cincinnati was unique among North American streetcar systems in requiring two overhead wires for streetcars, one to supply electrical power, the other to provide a ground and complete the circuit. This arrangement grew from an early and (pardon the pun) groundless fear of electrocution from the standard streetcar practice of returning current through the tracks.

The image attached below shows one case (photographed in April 1951) where trams and a trolleybus are using the same wires - but over 70 years ago and not in San Francisco, of course.

The F-Market line presently runs a PCC car (no. 1057) turned out in the eye-catching Cincinnati bright yellow & green livery. Obviously, this car has only one trolley pole now - and so it should, since the vehicle is actually an ex-SEPTA Philadelphia specimen, not a Cincinnati original. Allegedly, 1057 is now the most photographed of the PCCs in SF on account of its vivid Cincinnati 'tribute' colour scheme.

PCC car 1127 and standard car 154 pose for a photo with then-new trolleybus 1508 on Montana Avenue, Cincinnati, OH. 22 April 1951.
Source: Metro Bus. Image licenced for re-use under CC 2.0.

 

[Taunton]

Speaking of trolleybus versus tram trolley wires and @AdamWW's question - one North American streetcar operator, the former Cincinnati Street Railway in Ohio, was very unusual in using a pair of trolley wires, one live, one earth, similar to trolleybuses. So, the company's original tramcars and later PCC cars were equipped with a pair of trolley poles. According to www.streetcar.org :-

Same was done in London, around Greenwich, where the Observatory objected in early days to earth currents disrupting their instruments, and the first trams were fitted with two poles and a switch for the earth when in that section. The observatory moved out of London after a while, and normal arrangements were introduced there.

 

[AdamWW]

Same was done in London, around Greenwich, where the Observatory objected in early days to earth currents disrupting their instruments, and the first trams were fitted with two poles and a switch for the earth when in that section. The observatory moved out of London after a while, and normal arrangements were introduced there.

I wonder if they actually remembered/bothered to switch them over when they were supposed to?

 

[Taunton]

PCC car 1127 and standard car 154 pose for a photo with then-new trolleybus 1508 on Montana Avenue, Cincinnati, OH. 22 April 1951.
Source: Metro Bus. Image licenced for re-use under CC 2.0.

70 years on those houses in the background at the west end of Montana Ave, the old streetcar terminus, are still there (I know this is a California thread, but whetever). Here :

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[Springs Branch]

Back to Market Street . . .

I have a soft spot for San Francisco, having worked in the North Bay Area & lived in Marin County for a period of my life. I spent many evenings and weekends pottering around the city - much to the consternation of my colleagues & friends, who regarded San Francisco as a cesspool of iniquity at that time and never went there if they could possibly avoid it.

Anyhow, I always remember that ubiquitous two-tone orange and white livery which was the hallmark of Muni buses, trolleybuses and Boeing LRVs up until the mid-1990s, and was a sort of background theme-tune of my younger, more exciting days.

This colour scheme was apparently promoted as 'Sunset Orange' when first introduced around 1975, and was the product of Walter Landor, a well-known SF-based industrial and brand designer of the era. Rather than 'Sunset', the orange & white became commonly known as the Landor livery.

In the late 1970s, a handful of the Muni PCCs (still in regular service at the time ahead of full-scale commissioning of the Muni Metro subway and Boeing cars) were repainted into the Landor orange & white. Despite a possibly anticipated clash between retro streetcar style and "1970s bright new future" colours, I thought the two actually went together very well (but, as Buckingham Palace would say, opinions may vary).

It's a pity none of the restored, multi-coloured PCCs on today's Market & Wharves line have been turned out in this iconic orange San Francisco livery. Especially considering there are a number of cars running in the preceding Muni Green and white, and, as it's getting on for 50 years old now, Landor should just about be qualifying as 'heritage'.

Muni PCC car 1040 on Market Street, San Francisco, CA in February 1980.
Image source: Roger Puta collection, released into public domain via Wiki commons.

Despite Landor's organisation being San Francisco based, I have my own theory about how that orange & white scheme and the 'squiggly worm' Muni logo came about.

I suspect that back in the mid-seventies, Landor or one of his associates visited Manchester. He, or she, saw all the Selnec buses on city's streets and thought, "Hang on. We live in a damp, foggy, drizzly city too. San Francisco should have some nice orange and white buses, just like these in Manchester!" This would have taken place around 1974, when Selnec was morphing into Greater Manchester Transport, the GMT 'M-blem' logo was being introduced, and new buses were appearing in a slightly darker shade of orange. Funnily enough, the Landor livery & logo were announced in SF in January 1975!

So that's where the 'Landor' two shades of orange & white scheme and the squiggly Muni logo (still in use today, like GMT's) came from. Pure knock-off from 1970s Manchester.

 

[Taunton]

Comparably to yourself, I likewise had a period in more youthful times when I lived in Los Angeles, as shown by various posts on here (and my train library going over there in a container, and quite some years later coming back), and a weekend in San Francisco, hopping up on PSA, a onetime internal airline, was a pleasant change. Landor Associates have done a good few airline colour schemes as well, but I think with the Muni colour scheme they were drawing on inspiration from the past.

The Southern Pacific railroad, mainstream one in California and much of The West, was traditionally headquartered in San Francisco, where their classic 1920s building is still there, "No. 1 Market Street", right on the corner of Market and Embarcadero. Their main line west was long known as the "Sunset Route", and its main passenger train "The Sunset", and although their locomotive livery was predominantly black, the top passenger locos, both steam and later diesel, had an orange scheme, as seen in many Hollywood movies.

File:Night session june 23 2011 033xRP - Flickr - drewj1946.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meanwhile for traditional USA streetcars, orange was the longstanding colour scheme of many operators across the country, commonly known as "Traction Orange". Traction is a longstanding USA term for electric tramways. This can be seen in no better example than the Cincinnati picture further up shows a typical cream-over orange scheme, not dissimilar at all to the Muni livery. The PCC, like many when introduced, has been given a completely different livery, to emphasise the break and advance from traditional car types. But Landor were just following tradition, for name and colour, which had come back into fashion in the late 1960s. Even those PSA planes had an orange and pink colour scheme.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Despite Landor's organisation being San Francisco based, I have my own theory about how that orange & white scheme and the 'squiggly worm' Muni logo came about.

I suspect that back in the mid-seventies, Landor or one of his associates visited Manchester. He, or she, saw all the Selnec buses on city's streets and thought, "Hang on. We live in a damp, foggy, drizzly city too. San Francisco should have some nice orange and white buses, just like these in Manchester!" This would have taken place around 1974, when Selnec was morphing into Greater Manchester Transport, the GMT 'M-blem' logo was being introduced, and new buses were appearing in a slightly darker shade of orange. Funnily enough, the Landor livery & logo were announced in SF in January 1975!

I had thought that Wellington NZ's 1980's squiggly W logo which looked similar to Manchester's logo were a copy of each other. Don't know which city was first. Efforts to find an example of Wellington's logo via an Internet search have come up empty.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Meanwhile for traditional USA streetcars, orange was the longstanding colour scheme of many operators across the country, commonly known as "Traction Orange". Traction is a longstanding USA term for electric tramways. This can be seen in no better example than the Cincinnati picture further up shows a typical cream-over orange scheme, not dissimilar at all to the Muni livery. The PCC, like many when introduced, has been given a completely different livery, to emphasise the break and advance from traditional car types. But Landor were just following tradition, for name and colour, which had come back into fashion in the late 1960s. Even those PSA planes had an orange and pink colour scheme.

Traction Orange still in use in Boston for the Mattapan Ashmont line which still runs with PCC's in a Heritage orange scheme.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Despite Landor's organisation being San Francisco based, I have my own theory about how that orange & white scheme and the 'squiggly worm' Muni logo came about.

That reminds me of something.

In 2002, Manchester was the host city of the Commonwealth Games. Many of the venues used for the games were served by Metrolink, a regional light rail network which first opened in 1992. With capacity problems foreseen and thus requiring a short term solution, the Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive approached Muni about the possibility of buying redundant Boeing SLRVs. Two were purchased for $250 each for initial evaluation and shipped to England.[63][64][65]

Upon arrival in England in January 2002, 1226 was sent to Derby Litchurch Lane Works for assessment by Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate to ensure it met UK safety standards, while 1326 was delivered directly to Metrolink's Queens Road Depot.[66][67] Muni cars 1214, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1234, 1249, 1268, 1288, 1305, 1308, 1312 and 1327 were stored in the US pending the sale.

Investigations concluded it was not economic to modify them for service in Manchester.[68] The vehicle in Manchester was scrapped once the project was cancelled, while the vehicle in Derby was stored until 2016, at which point it too was broken up.[69]

US Standard Light Rail Vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

File:San Francisco Muni, Boeing LRV 1226.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[beardedbrit]

These are in daily use along the main tourist streets in San Francisco, but are proper public transport, the classic streamlined USA PCC streetcar, Presidents Consultative Committee (nothing to do with the USA President, it was the Presidents of the streetcar companies in various cities who got together for the design). Built immediately pre- and post-WW2, thousands were built, Chicago alone had 600, they can look the same but there are a range of variations and some technical advances. San Francisco bought some new, but as various other US systems closed down or replaced them, they were bought up secondhand.

Although they have a wide range of liveries, simplistically one for every US system that had PCCs, they are either San Francisco's own initial cars, or large blocks they bought up from Philadelphia and Newark. Immaculately restored, they also share the daily route with various cars from around the world in their own colours, including a 1930s open car from Blackpool.

There's a long history of their route along San Francisco's main street, Market Street, which when I first went to the city in the 1970s was the substantial main streetcar route, with these cars already past middle age. It was replaced by a subway underneath for modern articulated trams, in between street level and the BART high speed (supposedly) rapid transit further underneath; there were all sorts of delays in construction and then getting the new cars to work. The 1970s articulated cars have already been replaced, and their replacements themselves are now under consideration, but the PCCs made an amazing comeback on their original route on the surface, and are now seen as much a tourist feature as the cablecars.

The PCC cars were the mainstay of Boston's MBTA Green Line until the 1970s, and they still run the Mattapan - Ashmont Red Line shuttle (https://railfan.com/photo-line-bostons-streetcar-survivors/ )