Sandhills

[Kite159]

..

Surely the railway makes a stack of money out of football fans crush loaded onto trains?
Be interesting to see how much revenue football fans generate for the whole railway - Saturday trains shift huge numbers of them.

Depends if those crush loaded sports fans pay

 

[Skie]

Additional platforms have always been the answer in my view. A new station at Boundary Street which is right across the road from the stadium should have been built when the planning permission was granted. Indeed somewhere I have read for a new station to be built in the Vauxhall area between Moorfields and Sandhills but obviously our great Metro Mayor and his team have never taken this forward. It would have been the ideal solution.

The amount of objections you'd get from the Elbonian Villiage residents would make a station difficult.

 

[Mikey C]

Surely the railway makes a stack of money out of football fans crush loaded onto trains?
Be interesting to see how much revenue football fans generate for the whole railway - Saturday trains shift huge numbers of them.

The local bars and hotels will make lots of money too. Football tourism is a nice earner for the likes of Liverpool and Manchester, one of the few things which isn't London dominated.

 

[Vinnym]

Maybe if they ran shuttle buses to Kirkdale/Bank Hall for supporters travelling north and use Sandhills for travelling south might help the situation.

 

[spp]

..

Depends if those crush loaded sports fans pay

I find sports fans far more likely to pay, mostly as the numbers amongst them who don’t are far more likely to be forced to than non paying general travellers.

Barriers/revenue protection operations are often targeted at football fans.

 

[185143]

It looks so close to the waterfront for this to be possible!

I was on the Stena ferry to Belfast a few weeks back and got talking to an Everton fan who'd been over for the game that day. He excitedly pointed out the new stadium and it does indeed seem in a prime waterfront location.

 

[childwallblues]

Maybe if they ran shuttle buses to Kirkdale/Bank Hall for supporters travelling north and use Sandhills for travelling south might help the situation.

No disabled facilities at Bank Hall soyou would have to bus supporters further to Bootle Oriel Road.

 

[Bevan Price]

One idea I saw floated was to fence off the Southport bound platform face and build a new platform on the other side of the bridge on the large chunk of space available there. It'd allow the entire platform to be used for southbound passengers. But it would also require shifting of the signal and points and the area is a little tricky due to the canal bridge and Kirkdale reception line. Should fit, but not as simple as just building a platform.

It would also be a severe inconvenience if you blocked the cross platform interchange between the Southport & the Ormskirk/Kirkby lines.

 

[Prime586]

The amount of objections you'd get from the Elbonian Villiage residents would make a station difficult.

Especially as any station between Sandhills and Sherwood Street would require compulsory purchase of either commercial premises (north of Boundary Street) or houses (south of Boundary Street) as they are built right next to the east side of the viaduct.

The only available land along there was on the west side of the viaduct either side of the Stanley Locks. The land on the north side of the locks adjoining Lightbody Street is now the Hartley Locks apartment development. The plot on the south side of the locks (formerly the site of a wool warehouse) was empty for years and used to be used as the car park for the Stanley Dock Market. One half is currently used by McBurneys as overspill trailer parking for their frozen food distribution depot behind Sandhills station, and the other half has recently had a water source heat pump power station built on it by Vital Energi, to provide heating and hot water using the canal water as a heat source for the new developments around there and the Liverpool Waters scheme.

 

[73001]

Maybe if they ran shuttle buses to Kirkdale/Bank Hall for supporters travelling north and use Sandhills for travelling south might help the situation.

They are running shuttle buses to Bootle, Lime St and Liverpool ONE.

 

[A.Macallan]

….Supporters arrive at grounds at different times, some very early & some last minute but nearly all will leave at the final whistle. Anyone passing Sandhills on Sat/Sun afternoons/evenings will notice that the trains are already heavily loaded with passengers going to & from town. I’ve changed trains here several times at wkends & struggled to board because they were so rammed, & that’s without several 10,000+ extra punters ! Some one with 5H17 for brains has not thought this one through. …Oh, and half-hourly service on Winter Sundays.

 

[Skie]

It would also be a severe inconvenience if you blocked the cross platform interchange between the Southport & the Ormskirk/Kirkby lines.

Moorfields would become the main interchange. Not a huge inconvenience if there was some thought put into the timetable and a significantly nicer environment to wait in.

 

[chiltern trev]

The service after a match needs to be the maximum possible, i.e every 15 minutes to Southport, Ormskirk and Deadbolt Lane which means a train every 5 minutes inbound a d outbound.

Then make all 8 cars but I suspect the 777 fleet does not have enough units (a) under normal availability and (b) if all units were available. Maybe the maintenance regime needs adjusting on match days to make the maximum number of units available?

So some priorisation for which you need ticketing info:
* Headbolt Lane station
* Stations to and including Aintree
* Stations beyond Aintree to Ormskirk and Preston
* Stations to Hall Road
* Stations beyond Hall Road to Southport
* Stations beyond Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross
* Wirral line stations
* Lime Street line stations

So, for example run 4 cars to Headbolt Lane.
Match 4 or 8 cars to Hunts Cross with an appropriate north bound service which may require changing the current match. Run 8 cars to Aintree then all change to a 4 car Aintree-Ormskirk. Run 8 cars to Hall Road then all change for Hall Road to Southport but I suspect you need 8 cars all the way to Southport.

 

[Llandudno]

….Supporters arrive at grounds at different times, some very early & some last minute but nearly all will leave at the final whistle. Anyone passing Sandhills on Sat/Sun afternoons/evenings will notice that the trains are already heavily loaded with passengers going to & from town. I’ve changed trains here several times at wkends & struggled to board because they were so rammed, & that’s without several 10,000+ extra punters ! Some one with 5H17 for brains has not thought this one through. …Oh, and half-hourly service on Winter Sundays.

Also half hourly on Ormskirk and Headbolt lines after 1900 on weekdays, not good for evening kickoffs!

 

[WAO]

The amount of objections you'd get from the Elbonian Villiage residents would make a station difficult.

I don't remember that at Headbolt Lane. Merseyside complaints are generally that there isn't a station nearby. A station would keep the crowds out of residential areas and reduce parking pressures.

There is some space in the site landscaping to the NE and the vehicle park to the SW. However the extravagant land take and cost that bureaucracy causes makes progress unlikely.

WAO

 

[Prime586]

I don't remember that at Headbolt Lane. Merseyside complaints are generally that there isn't a station nearby. A station would keep the crowds out of residential areas and reduce parking pressures.

There is some space in the site landscaping to the NE and the vehicle park to the SW. However the extravagant land take and cost that bureaucracy causes makes progress unlikely.

WAO

There was nothing on the land that Headbolt Lane was built on to protest. Even so, of the 25 public comments the three rounds of planning documents for the project received (out of 570 people consulted). 14 of them were objections against only 7 positive comments. I'm guessing the objections were from the people in the houses immediately to the south, who would be getting a platform at the back of their gardens.

There are houses right up against the viaduct on Boundary Street, so the football crowds would already be in a residential area.

The vehicle park to the SW is owned by Cruise & Passenger Services, for people using the cruise terminal. Like any available empty land in the area east of Great Howard Street, it's value will have skyrocketed as the operators will be able to make a packet from matchday parking. WH Lung's chinese supermarket on the corner have leased their car park out to NCP for that purpose.

 

[urban]

A new Vauxhall station would be most likely on Great Howard Street opposite the Tobacco Warehouse. It's a huge plot of wasteland used only for lorry parking, and it's closer to the 'Ten Streets' area which the council are keen to redevelop.
The line is on a viaduct through this area, which may pose a difficulty but it looks like there is room for platforms.

 

[KevinTurvey]

As a regular user of this line I would say Sandhills is never going to work in handling large football crowds with single 65m units, a narrow platform cluttered with buildings, and a few steel barriers.

Kirkdale can bad enough now and that’s got quite a bit more platform space. Part of the problem like everywhere, is when the ground empties out around 5:00 on Saturdays, northbound trains are already full (often standing) with shoppers returning from town. . I think on match days more services will have to be doubled up/lengthened, as earlier posters have alluded to. The question is obviously how and who will pay.

This overcrowding problem can also occur with Liverpool FC as well, though to a lesser extent.

I think the only realistic solution is longer trains.

Aside I expect the bus companies will struggle too in dealing with the congestion, not forgetting this adjoins a busy route for wagons to the docks at Millers Bridge and Seaforth, and the exit from the tunnel is not far away. Its going to be chaos with a full crowd of 50,000 notwithstanding all the security, stewards and hospitality staff. Yes I agree I don't think this has been thought through.

 

[childwallblues]

A new Vauxhall station would be most likely on Great Howard Street opposite the Tobacco Warehouse. It's a huge plot of wasteland used only for lorry parking, and it's closer to the 'Ten Streets' area which the council are keen to redevelop.
The line is on a viaduct through this area, which may pose a difficulty but it looks like there is room for

The line was built by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway and was four tracks all the way through Sandhills to Liverpool Exchange. When the route was rationalised the two outside platforms were taken out of ust leaving the island platform in use. The platform on the west side is still visible today although overgrown with shubbery.

 

[Bevan Price]

There were originally 4 tracks between Sandhills and the former Liverpool Exchange. So, whilst some realignment of the current tracks might be needed, there ought to be space for a new station somewhere between Sandhills & Moorfields.

As for extra services, one solution might be to use the reversing siding at Sandhills, and run shuttle services between Sandhills and Hall Road or Formby, and Sandhills & Maghull or Kirkby. These would cover some of the busiest stations north of Sandhills. If there are enough "workable" 777s, then 8 car formations should be used on all services towards Hunts Cross, at least in the first hour after Everton matches finish.

 

[jamesst]

The service after a match needs to be the maximum possible, i.e every 15 minutes to Southport, Ormskirk and Deadbolt Lane which means a train every 5 minutes inbound a d outbound.

Then make all 8 cars but I suspect the 777 fleet does not have enough units (a) under normal availability and (b) if all units were available. Maybe the maintenance regime needs adjusting on match days to make the maximum number of units available?

So some priorisation for which you need ticketing info:
* Headbolt Lane station
* Stations to and including Aintree
* Stations beyond Aintree to Ormskirk and Preston
* Stations to Hall Road
* Stations beyond Hall Road to Southport
* Stations beyond Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross
* Wirral line stations
* Lime Street line stations

So, for example run 4 cars to Headbolt Lane.
Match 4 or 8 cars to Hunts Cross with an appropriate north bound service which may require changing the current match. Run 8 cars to Aintree then all change to a 4 car Aintree-Ormskirk. Run 8 cars to Hall Road then all change for Hall Road to Southport but I suspect you need 8 cars all the way to Southport.

Where are you finding all the extra drivers from for this? They struggle enough as it is

 

[AlastairFraser]

Initially, Everton should introduce a ferry shuttle from a pier at Bramley Moore Dock to Pier Head, perhaps on a frequency of every 15 mins for a few hours before the match and after the match. You would probably want to charter in something with a capacity similar to the current Mersey Ferry (approx. 300 passengers).
Consideration should also be given to a possible extension to a pier at Speke Hall estate by Liverpool Airport, to
After funding has been secured, Sandhills should be rebuilt as a 4 platform, 2 track "Spanish solution" station, with the new side platforms exit only before matches, and entry only (as other members have suggested).
Half-height platform screen doors with the new layout would also be worth exploring. With the 777 arrival, there shouldn't be an issue with having to adapt them to new rolling stock any time soon, and they would help get people onto platforms and trains as quickly as possible.

 

[urbophile]

The amount of objections you'd get from the Elbonian Villiage residents would make a station difficult.

Why would local residents object to a station serving their community? Especially considering that area is almost a public transport desert.

 

[A.Macallan]

…The Stations at Manchester United Football Ground & Boothferry Park Halt (Hull City) were both closed because of safety concerns, like the man said…

 

[Prime586]

A new Vauxhall station would be most likely on Great Howard Street opposite the Tobacco Warehouse. It's a huge plot of wasteland used only for lorry parking, and it's closer to the 'Ten Streets' area which the council are keen to redevelop.
The line is on a viaduct through this area, which may pose a difficulty but it looks like there is room for platforms.

See my post #69. The site of the former wool warehouse opposite Stanley Dock is no longer a wasteland - half of it is now the site of a central hot water and heating heat pump station using the canal as a heat source. I'm pretty sure the other side is only leased by McBurneys and is intended to be the site for another residential development similar to the Hartley Locks development on the opposite side of the locks.

Initially, Everton should introduce a ferry shuttle from a pier at Bramley Moore Dock to Pier Head, perhaps on a frequency of every 15 mins for a few hours before the match and after the match. You would probably want to charter in something with a capacity similar to the current Mersey Ferry (approx. 300 passengers).
Consideration should also be given to a possible extension to a pier at Speke Hall estate by Liverpool Airport, to

If you wanted the pier to operate outside of high tide, the riverbed next to the sea wall would need to be regularly dredged as it is at the Pier Head. There used to be dredged channels there for access to the gatss for Sandon Doxk and Salisbury Dock, but they were sealed up many years ago (Sandon Dock's gates were sealed in 1977) so the area hasn't been dredged for decades.

The river is nowhere near deep enough near the airport for a ferry to navigate - there is a dredged channel that runs along the east bank to allow access to Garston Dock (the Garston Channel), which is the limit of navigation to anything but small craft on the Liverpool side of the river.. There was a temporary pier constructed at Otterspool for ferry access to the Garden Festival, but again it required regular dredging from the channel to the river wall and even then could still only be used at high tide.

Dredging the Mersey is the responsibility of Peel Ports. Any additional dredging required for ferry access would have to be paid for by the operator (who would also have to pay Peel to build the pier, as they own and operate the dock estate and airport as well).

Why would local residents object to a station serving their community? Especially considering that area is almost a public transport desert.

Evne if a new station was confined to the viaduct and didn't require any demolition of adjacent properties, it would still mean tens of thousands of football fans on their doorsteps every other weekend for 9 months of the year. The residents of the area are already unhappy about the new no parking zone, having to apply for residents parking permits and the proposed local traffic restrictions on matchdays.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you wanted the pier to operate outside of high tide, the riverbed next to the sea wall would need to be regularly dredged as it is at the Pier Head. There used to be dredged channels there for access to the gatss for Sandon Doxk and Salisbury Dock, but they were sealed up many years ago (Sandon Dock's gates were sealed in 1977) so the area hasn't been dredged for decades.

The river is nowhere near deep enough near the airport for a ferry to navigate - there is a dredged channel that runs along the east bank to allow access to Garston Dock (the Garston Channel), which is the limit of navigation to anything but small craft on the Liverpool side of the river.. There was a temporary pier constructed at Otterspool for ferry access to the Garden Festival, but again it required regular dredging from the channel to the river wall and even then could still only be used at high tide.

Dredging the Mersey is the responsibility of Peel Ports. Any additional dredging required for ferry access would have to be paid for by the operator (who would also have to pay Peel to build the pier, as they own and operate the dock estate and airport as well).

Maybe the airport extension is too much of an ask given the lower potential passenger numbers than a Bramley Moore Dock to Pier Head shuttle, but regular dredging for a service that could carry up to 3,600 passengers to and from the game shouldn't be a big ask (especially if you increased that frequency even more with more boats and another landing stage at the Pier Head end, should the initial trial be expensive).

Liverpool's roads and railways are absolutely jam-packed on match days, and the Mersey is a natural resource that should be used to transport passengers in a more environmentally-friendly way to and from games. You could probably even charge a premium fare and make it a very profitable operation after a few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One idea I saw floated was to fence off the Southport bound platform face and build a new platform on the other side of the bridge on the large chunk of space available there. It'd allow the entire platform to be used for southbound passengers. But it would also require shifting of the signal and points and the area is a little tricky due to the canal bridge and Kirkdale reception line. Should fit, but not as simple as just building a platform.

And as I said you then break quality cross platform interchange which is the station's primary role. Football once a week for half the year should not be allowed to damage the station's utility the rest of the time.

If this starts to be mooted I'd be very tempted to set Doug Paulley on them - I'm sure he would be happy to assist in opposing this if he is reading

 

[WAO]

Even if a new station was confined to the viaduct and didn't require any demolition of adjacent properties, it would still mean tens of thousands of football fans on their doorsteps every other weekend for 9 months of the year. The residents of the area are already unhappy about the new no parking zone, having to apply for residents parking permits and the proposed local traffic restrictions on matchdays.

The houses are on the East side of the railway, the stadium is on the West side of the railway. Without a station, many fans will head East, under the bridge, past the housing estate, towards the bus stops on Vauxhall Road.

Not being an Everton fan, it doesn't really matter to me...

WAO

 

[Skie]

Why would local residents object to a station serving their community? Especially considering that area is almost a public transport desert.

That area has history of objecting. It’s an enclosed estate of small, low density housing from the 90s that is in the edge of an industrial area and Liverpools commercial district. Proposed tall buildings get objected to because “too tall” and more industrial gets objected too because nobody wants to live next to a business.

They would benefit from a station, but they wouldn’t want the foot traffic entering their special little area to catch a train.

 

[chris53]

And as I said you then break quality cross platform interchange which is the station's primary role. Football once a week for half the year should not be allowed to damage the station's utility the rest of the time.

If this starts to be mooted I'd be very tempted to set Doug Paulley on them - I'm sure he would be happy to assist in opposing this if he is reading

Even in Liverpool, there are a great many people who couldn't care less about football