Scam or not? East Midlands Railways demand for recovery of overpayment of duplicate Delay Repay 2019

[Western Sunset]

There was indeed an 1819 St Pan - Sheff, that called at Market H [1916.5/1918 (WTT); 1917/1918 (GBTT)]. On that day the actual times were arr 1946, dep 1948.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So what's actually gone on here? How have two Delay Repay amounts been paid out on the same journey?

 

[MotCO]

So what's actually gone on here? How have two Delay Repay amounts been paid out on the same journey?

Is it possible for an automatic claim process to make a DR payment, and then for the passenger, not realising that there would be an automatic DR, manually claiming for the same journey?

 

[Egg Centric]

They do (although I don't think they're visible to the recipient, only to bank staff).

I usually see who my bank transfers are from. Might not be full details but certainly a name.

 

[PG]

I'm intrigued how anyone can claim that an event which occurred over 27 months ago is recent! - see 2nd paragraph of the letter the OP has attached in post #25

...probably after a DfT missive or official has told them to trawl through the files for fraud and error and seek to reclaim it.

Strikes me as the [modern day] equivalent of the milkman/woman [HM Treasury] stood on the doorstep at the end of the week but you've [DfT] not quite enough cash to pay them so you get the children [all TOCs] to check down the back of the sofa for loose change

 

[island]

The details aren't transferred to the merchant, but a transaction ID is used, which is what allows a merchant to automatically refund something. They don't have any visibility of where the payment came from, just that their payment processor received a payment, and the ID. That's why you need to give a reference number or description if you make a random online payment from your bank account, without that the recipient would have no indication where it came from.

As a senior bank worker, I can say with absolute certainty from direct personal knowledge that you are wrong. When we receive a bank transfer payment, we can see the origin sort code and account number on our systems, along with the name on the sender account, and any reference. The latter two items appear to the recipient.

There is no "payment processor" involved in a bank transfer, only the sending bank and the receiving bank. Nor is there necessarily a "merchant". You appear to be conflating card payment with bank transfers.

I usually see who my bank transfers are from. Might not be full details but certainly a name.

But you don't see their sort code and account number, like I said.

 

[Falcon1200]

I’m not sure how EMR’s system works but there are automated systems where if you buy an advance ticket from the operator and that service qualifies for delay repay it is handled completely automatically.

Indeed, a couple of years ago I received an automatic delay repay, without having to do anything, for an Advance ticket booked on a specific train which was delayed 40 minutes.

 

[Nottingham59]

2. The journey in question is stated as occurring on 26th September 2019 and my bank account shows payments into my account on 30th Sept 19 for £14.50 and £14.38 on 8th Oct 19. There are no other payments into my account from EMR between the 8th Oct 19 and today.

Given that two payments were received, but for different amounts, my guess is that there were two different journeys for which Delay Repay was claimed, one via the manual claim form and one by the automatic route. These have been conflated somehow into one journey on 26 Sept 2019.

Perhaps the OP made a mistake and put in the wrong date in the manual form? Maybe both his journeys on 26 Sept to and from London were delayed, and the OP claimed manually for the return journey by mistake, even though this was the one that got processed automatically? Or appended the wrong ticket image to the manual form? Or the EMR system has somehow conflated these two events? We won't know without more details of both claims and the ticketing evidence that is associated with them.

Given that the letter seems to be genuinely from EMR, and the importance of the OP's good name, I would pay the requested £14.38, with a covering letter stating that you would never knowingly claim DR twice for the same journey; that you have only ever received one payment of exactly £14.38 from them, but are making a payment to them on the basis of the statements made in their letter to you; and that you assume they have conducted due diligence in making their claim.

After that payment has been received and processed by EMR, I would then write to EMR asking for all details of the journey, and the details of the ticket(s) associated with both DR reference numbers - followed up with a GDPR request if necessary. In particular I would want to find out why a different amount was paid in each instance.

If these subsequent details prove that EMR's statement that "for your journey from London to Market Harborough on 26/9/2019 automatic compensation was claimed ... and a manual claim form was also filled in" was false, then I would ask for my money back.

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed, a couple of years ago I received an automatic delay repay, without having to do anything, for an Advance ticket booked on a specific train which was delayed 40 minutes.

Was that with EMR?

 

[robbeech]

I'm intrigued how anyone can claim that an event which occurred over 27 months ago is recent! - see 2nd paragraph of the letter the OP has attached in post #25


Strikes me as the [modern day] equivalent of the milkman/woman [HM Treasury] stood on the doorstep at the end of the week but you've [DfT] not quite enough cash to pay them so you get the children [all TOCs] to check down the back of the sofa for loose change

I suppose so in this instance but as others have said, the house up the street that you’re going to next night not have paid for any milk in 2 years so whilst £14.38 might seem a lot of fuss over nothing, if the process has dug out all claims the next one might be £500 if the person has double claimed a few times.


I must say it does seem a little bit difficult to see all the details with this case, the original post was made without telling us whether they had indeed claimed twice and/or been paid twice and the follow up posts claim 2 lots of money entering the account but no real indication if the one for the wrong amount was from EMR or indeed confirming that it wasn’t from anyone else causing us to have to speculate further.

To me it seems that for whatever reason, EMR have paid £14.38 and £14.50 to this account and now want it back, which they are entitled to, so I suspect that ought to be that. The only way matters would need to go on further is if the op wished to be difficult based on how EMR have gone about things. This is ok, and is up to them. They could ask EMR to give details and supply evidence of 2 payments being made.

Of course, there’s a chance there’s more to it and EMR have a few tricks up their sleeve.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given that two payments were received, but for different amounts, my guess is that there were two different journeys for which Delay Repay was claimed, one via the manual claim form and one by the automatic route. These have been conflated somehow into one journey on 26 Sept 2019.

Perhaps the OP made a mistake and put in the wrong date in the manual form? Maybe both his journeys on 26 Sept to and from London were delayed, and the OP claimed manually for the return journey by mistake, even though this was the one that got processed automatically? Or appended the wrong ticket image to the manual form? Or the EMR system has somehow conflated these two events? We won't know without more details of both claims and the ticketing evidence that is associated with them.

Given that the letter seems to be genuinely from EMR, and the importance of the OP's good name, I would pay the requested £14.38, with a covering letter stating that you would never knowingly claim DR twice for the same journey; that you have only ever received one payment of exactly £14.38 from them, but are making a payment to them on the basis of the statements made in their letter to you; and that you assume they have conducted due diligence in making their claim.

After that payment has been received and processed by EMR, I would then write to EMR asking for all details of the journey, and the details of the ticket(s) associated with both DR reference numbers - followed up with a GDPR request if necessary. In particular I would want to find out why a different amount was paid in each instance.

If these subsequent details prove that EMR's statement that "for your journey from London to Market Harborough on 26/9/2019 automatic compensation was claimed ... and a manual claim form was also filled in" was false, then I would ask for my money back.

I think I would be tempted to do the same (tho I guess the OP will have to decide if the sum is worth the time it will take - which of course EMR may well rely on not being the case...)

 

[talltim]

This letter will have taken about 20 seconds to generate and there is no investigation other than simply asking a computer to identify duplicate claims.

It takes longer than that to put that many typos in it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It takes longer than that to put that many typos in it...

Someone will have spent far too little time typing out a "shell" mailmerge letter once, then the computer will have generated the individual ones.

 

[Ediswan]

There is no "payment processor" involved in a bank transfer, only the sending bank and the receiving bank.

Where does BACS fit in ?

 

[island]

Where does BACS fit in ?

Most payments are made by FPS these days. For BACS transfers, the paying institution submits the details of payments to be made to Pay.Uk (the successor to BACS) and Pay.Uk sends on the details to the receiving institutions. The money itself goes directly from the paying institution to the receiving institution by way of a credit transfer at their Bank of England accounts.

 

[A Challenge]

On another point, if you chose to donate one of your payments to EMR’s charity (currently The Samaritan’s), it would obviously not show in your bank twice.

I would hope if someone did indeed do this they wouldn't be chased for the amount at a later date on a claim of double claiming?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would hope if someone did indeed do this they wouldn't be chased for the amount at a later date on a claim of double claiming?

If the Government has told them to I see little choice.

I hope Avanti don't pursue the overpayment I got a while ago which I donated to charity as I couldn't see a way to return it. But it wasn't fraudulent as my claim contained the correct 60 minute delay, they just wrongly said it was 120.

 

[Western Sunset]

There was indeed an 1819 St Pan - Sheff, that called at Market H [1916.5/1918 (WTT); 1917/1918 (GBTT)]. On that day the actual times were arr 1946, dep 1948.

Just quoting myself, but how is delay replay actually calculated? Looking at the OPs train above, by the WTT it was 29.5 mins late, but by the public book 29 late. Would the WTT lateness be rounded up to 30 mins? Just wondering about the mechanics of it all...

 

[stew]

Just quoting myself, but how is delay replay actually calculated? Looking at the OPs train above, by the WTT it was 29.5 mins late, but by the public book 29 late. Would the WTT lateness be rounded up to 30 mins? Just wondering about the mechanics of it all...

East Midlands also offer a 15-29min option

 

[A Challenge]

Just quoting myself, but how is delay replay actually calculated? Looking at the OPs train above, by the WTT it was 29.5 mins late, but by the public book 29 late. Would the WTT lateness be rounded up to 30 mins? Just wondering about the mechanics of it all...

In the case of a 29 minute (pubic) delay you would only get the rate for 15-29 minutes, even if, as is sometimes the case arriving into London Terminals on a long-distance train, this translates into a WTT delay of even 32 minutes due to to padding in the public timetable approaching the terminus.

 

[Falcon1200]

Was that with EMR?

No, Virgin Trains (replying to a comment that Delay Repay is sometimes automatic, with no claim required).

 

[WesternLancer]

No, Virgin Trains (replying to a comment that Delay Repay is sometimes automatic, with no claim required).

Thanks, yes, not sure that EMR do this (I may stand corrected) - I had a feeling they always made you claim (or 'agree to claim' )

 

[stew]

The letter from EMR which the OP posted states that they do have an automatic delay repay system

 

[WesternLancer]

The letter from EMR which the OP posted states that they do have an automatic delay repay system

Yes, I guess so - tho I found it a bit ambiguous in the letter in that it suggests the claim has been made under this, ie it is automated in some way but you still have to agree to claim it (as opposed to you just being paid D-R automatically without even asking for it - which I thought (but am unsure of) the Virgin Trains system did).

eg the difference between:

'we know the train you were booked on is late and we have thus paid a sum for D-R into the bank account you paid us from'
vs
'we know the train you were booked on is late and if you would like to claim D-R please agree to that here (t&cs apply)'

sort of difference

But maybe someone who knows how both systems work can clarify.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would there be in any mileage in the OP writing to East Midland Trains customer relations team (on a 'Signed For' basis) and asking them to confirm whether the letter received is genuine, and if so, to provide full details of the supposedly duplicated Delay Repay payments?

It's still engaging with EMR and could be justified as querying what is a badly-formatted (suspected possible postal scam) letter.

Address is...

Customer Service Centre,
East Midlands Railway,
Hudson Way,
Pride Park.
Derby. DE24 8HS