Schoolboys left injured after playing near rail line to sue over 'psychological trauma'

[Bletchleyite]

Locally the schools have been getting visits from some updated & more politically correct version of what we had age 11 - which back then resembled a slide show of big old locos, severed limbs and kentucky fried children - most of us didn't sleep for months after.

No, but we didn't go on the track, either.

 

[londonbridge]

This reminds me of a case some ten years ago where a boy was swinging on some railings in a supermarket, fell off, smashed his head open on the floor and died. The mother sued the supermarket, saying the railings were dangerous and/or shouldn't have been there. I don't recall ever hearing the outcome of the case though.

 

[ejstubbs]

I don't think the case ever went ahead - I can't find any record of it online. Possibly because the inquest verdict did not find any culpability on the part of the supermarket:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/family-harry-blackmore-say-inquest-3377023

During the inquest the family raised questions about the safety of the metal railing and alleged staff had asked store managers to remove it because children previously fell from it. But the narrative verdict rejected this.

 

[4141]

Its far worse than that, we live in a nation of lawyers (and middle managers). If you are familiar with Douglas Adams' 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', think Ark 'B'

(If you are not then apologies, but this link gives the basic background:

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B )

i'll get round to reading it, when I've finished this bath...

 

[Bikeman78]

Disgraceful. When I was 13 years old I was constantly trespassing on the railway (fences were more or less one big gaping hole) but wasn't so stupid as to climb up on to a wagon or carriage under 25kv wires. Nobody, except for the occasional surly shed foreman, cared very much and my parents wouldn't have dreamed of suing as a result of stupidity, teenagers were expected to have more sense than a five-year-old.

I was only 11 when I went for my first solo train ride from Horsham to Dorking. Somehow I had enough sense not to jump on the track, or touch the third rail or open the doors on the train when it was moving. At primary school a bloke from British Rail talked to us about the dangers of third rail and OHL. Does this not happen any more?

 

[Cowley]

i'll get round to reading it, when I've finished this bath...

Whatever happened to all the telephone sanitizers anyway..?

 

[richieb1971]

As soon as the fence is fixed it could be broken again. If people go through broken fences they expect it to be broken.

 

[Bikeman78]

A country having lower standards is no reason for another country to lower theirs.

It wasn't much different in Horsham in the '80s and '90s. I used to cycle along Nightingalr Road and through the industrial estate along the edge of the goods yard. There was an old Tyesley DMU dumped in one of the sidings. There was no fence at the end, nothing to stop anyone wandering onto the running lines towards Dorking. There was also an easy way in off Foundry Lane using the access road to the signalbox. I can't recall if there were gates at the time (there are now) but if there were, they were always left open.

As I understand it, the reason that UK railways are fenced is because, when they were built, the railway companies had to fence them to keep livestock off the track. A person can access the track simply by walking off any level crossing or off the end of a platform.

 

[richieb1971]

I don't understand spending money on fences at all. If you want to get on the track its not hard at all. Have you seen some of the places you see graffiti? I can't imagine how some of that stuff gets where it gets.

Places where people commit suicide have been fenced up near where I live. You can drive you car about 2 minutes down the line and find spots where there is almost nothing stopping you getting on the track. A complete waste of money in some circumstances.

 

[Re 4/4]

Places where people commit suicide have been fenced up near where I live. You can drive you car about 2 minutes down the line and find spots where there is almost nothing stopping you getting on the track. A complete waste of money in some circumstances.

This is going to sound odd, but suicides are often extremely ritualistic and making just a minor obstacle really can deter people. There's a bridge around here that's a common spot, and it's well fenced and sometimes patrolled by volunteers (Samaritans I think). Even though anyone could evade them by walking two minutes down the road to a cliff-edge of the same height, they save many lives each year and there are very few attempts or deaths at other spots two minutes away.

 

[Steamysandy]

I've often wondered if fencing the railway throughout is such a good idea.To my mind if there was no fence there wouldn't be the temptation to go onto the railway.
After all it's a magnet for a dare to go on the line.The rest of the world has thousands of miles of unfenced railway and I'll admit to walking along a mainline in Europe many years ago With a fence the railway is another world and it's a dare to go there

 

[farleigh]

I've often wondered if fencing the railway throughout is such a good idea.To my mind if there was no fence there wouldn't be the temptation to go onto the railway.
After all it's a magnet for a dare to go on the line.The rest of the world has thousands of miles of unfenced railway and I'll admit to walking along a mainline in Europe many years ago With a fence the railway is another world and it's a dare to go there

That seems a bit contradictory although I think you have a point to a degree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is going to sound odd, but suicides are often extremely ritualistic and making just a minor obstacle really can deter people

Hence the effectiveness of the fast line fencing fitted on some of the mainlines - even though it isn't locked on the WCML (it can't be - sometimes stopping trains use the fasts) it is an effective deterrent.

 

[geoffk]

I think it is an irritating world when people frequently spout strawman arguments.

There was absolutely nothing in that post which suggests the poster has more sympathy for animals than children. The point was that a hole in the fence should be fixed, regardless of whether it is wrong for humans to trespass, because an animal, which has no concept of trespass, could do the same thing.

How do our European neighbours manage, with their unfenced railways? They have children and animals too.

 

[geoffk]

As I understand it, the reason that UK railways are fenced is because, when they were built, the railway companies had to fence them to keep livestock off the track. A person can access the track simply by walking off any level crossing or off the end of a platform.

As the law dated back to 1845 the purpose of fencing was to stop the navvies building the railway from getting onto the adjoining landowners' property (and no doubt running off with their daughters). The standard byelaws provided that a breach was only committed if a person having been requested to leave the railway land, refused to do so. Under the Transport and Works Act 1992 the obligation on the Railway to fence was changed to one preventing persons getting on to the railway. The ORR seeks to impose on railways a standard of safety not required anywhere else in the world; one reason why we have high fares and frequent disruption to train services caused by trespassers.

 

[700007]

I remember many many moons ago we used to have police officers coming into primary school and I am sure it is still the case now explaining that playing on the railway is not safe. Year 2 Science used to also teach about how dangerous electricity is.

If these 13 year olds cannot put 2 and 2 together, then they should not have been allowed to leave the house. It's amazing the kind of idiots you get in this world sometimes.

Sorry if I sounded harsh there.

 

[daodao]

As I understand it, the reason that UK railways are fenced is because, when they were built, the railway companies had to fence them to keep livestock off the track. A person can access the track simply by walking off any level crossing or off the end of a platform.

There was a pedestrian foot crossing close to Whitchurch station on the Coryton branch line near where I used to live and at this time of the year I regularly wandered off the crossing to pick blackberries from bushes growing on the abandoned track bed of this formerly dual track line, well out of the way of passing trains.

 

[eastdyke]

As the law dated back to 1845 the purpose of fencing was to stop the navvies building the railway from getting onto the adjoining landowners' property (and no doubt running off with their daughters). The standard byelaws provided that a breach was only committed if a person having been requested to leave the railway land, refused to do so. Under the Transport and Works Act 1992 the obligation on the Railway to fence was changed to one preventing persons getting on to the railway. The ORR seeks to impose on railways a standard of safety not required anywhere else in the world; one reason why we have high fares and frequent disruption to train services caused by trespassers.

The ORR is not seeking to impose anything on 'the railway' but it will attempt to enforce some of the legal framework within which 'the railway' is required to work.
At a very basic and obvious level a fence is a deterrent.

To see what happens in another part of the world try searching 'ENCINITAS rail deaths'.
Encinitas is a City of some 60,000 in San Diego County, California.
This is one result:
https://www.thecoastnews.com/after-fourth-train-death-in-a-month-concerns-raised-about-rail-safety/

ENCINITAS — A recent spate of deaths along North County train tracks has once again raised the question of what officials can do to make the tracks less accessible to the public.
.........
So far this year, there have been seven fatal incidents in which a train has struck a person on the tracks, and nine “strikes” overall, according to statistics provided by the North County Transit District.
Last year, there were 15 fatal strikes on the rails and 24 total strikes, the highest number of incidents over the past five years. Since 2012, 70 people have died in such incidents.
Many of the incidents have occurred in Encinitas, where the train tracks are largely at grade and are not fenced off. Pedestrians frequently traverse the tracks to get to the beaches, especially the communities of Leucadia and Cardiff-by-the-Sea.
The dynamic of historical illegal crossings, lack of funding to fence or lower the tracks below grade level and the public sentiment opposed to fencing has stymied efforts over the years.
In Encinitas, officials have been working for years to build safe crossings in the event NCTD does fence off the rail right of way. But those efforts have been complicated by efforts to quiet train horn noise and the cost for such crossings.

I am very happy that we do differently here in UK, even though there is clearly a cost.

 

[SouthStand]

I think it’s a strange world we live in when people have more sympathy for animals than children.

Nope. Animals can't be expected to know about 25KV power lines, teenagers can.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nope. Animals can't be expected to know about 25KV power lines, teenagers can.

If you have more sympathy over a dog dying than a human being, regardless of the circumstances, then I pity you.

 

[Spamcan81]

I thought it was widely known that trespass isn't a crime, but I guess I was wrong!

Trespass on the railway is a crime.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have more sympathy over a dog dying than a human being, regardless of the circumstances, then I pity you.

A death is always sad, but the death of a dog is more understandable in the context than that of a human, because any human that is out unsupervised should know about the dangers they will face when out there and know where not to go - that is the responsibility of the parents. A dog won't know that.

 

[Rational Plan]

Some may moan about over regulation but we do some of safest railways in Europe. trains. Unfenced railways are particularly bad. I remember the worst in Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelldefels_train_accident

At 23:23 local time (21:23 UTC), an express train ran into a large group of people that was crossing the track at Platja de Castelldefels station, killing 12 of them and injuring 14.[2] Three of the injured were said to be in critical condition. The people crossing the line had just alighted from a full commuter train at the station and were crossing the track to get to the beach. The train involved in the accident was a Renfe Alaris ETR 490 electric multiple unit,[7] and was travelling at about 135 km/h (84 mph), below the speed limit of 150 km/h (93 mph) for that section of track.[8]

"We don't have twelve bodies, but rather twenty sacks of remains."

This was an accident waiting to happen for example as station is right by the beach and many youngsters would catch the train from the city and cross the tracks to go to the beach.

There is some dispute over whether the pedestrian bridge was chained off, and other argued about it being poorly positioned beyond the end of the platforms.

I fo note that in low platform systems most modern stations now have a wire fence in the middle to prevent people crossing the tracks.

 

[richieb1971]

In the 70s me and my dad walked on a lane that had a three wire fence between us and the track. Total visibility and access if you wanted it. Now you can't even access that lane. I don't mind fencing but NR should provision places so you can see trains if you want to. The Amount of places is falling in the south.

 

[50039]

There was a warning video on Twitter this week (probably longer, but I only saw it this week) of a lad named Tom doing exactly this and suffering life changing injuries.
Now - I’m reasonably well educated and sensible enough not to trespass let alone climb on top of railway vehicles, but to suggest that people should know the dangers of 25kv - well, I’d be surpised how many people truly know how far it can jump, how close you would need to get - I suspect a few people might be surprised....

 

[dcbwhaley]

Whatever happened to all the telephone sanitizers anyway..?

They were sent off on the B-arc. But everybody who was left behind died in a plague started by a virus lurking in a telephone ear-piece.

 

[dcbwhaley]

There was a warning video on Twitter this week (probably longer, but I only saw it this week) of a lad named Tom doing exactly this and suffering life changing injuries.
Now - I’m reasonably well educated and sensible enough not to trespass let alone climb on top of railway vehicles, but to suggest that people should know the dangers of 25kv - well, I’d be surpised how many people truly know how far it can jump, how close you would need to get - I suspect a few people might be surprised....

Wearing my Chartered Electrical Engineer's hat I think you might be surprised just how close you can get to a 25kV line in safety. The usually accepted figure for the breakdown voltage of dry air is 1kV per mm. That means you would have to be within an 25mm for the danger of an arc. Of course dampness and salinity of the air increase that distance. You wouldn't get me within a foot of an energised 25kV line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the 70s me and my dad walked on a lane that had a three wire fence between us and the track. Total visibility and access if you wanted it. Now you can't even access that lane. I don't mind fencing but NR should provision places so you can see trains if you want to. The Amount of places is falling in the south.

Part of this is an anti suicide measure, though it has other effects - for instance closing in the Redway bridge at the south end of MKC station may well have reduced suicides but also makes the bridge feel claustrophobic and unsafe at night (even though there is no practical change as you could hardly jump off if someone was chasing you).

 

[crosscity]

In the 1960s the railway was "fenced" largely by a couple of wooden bars over which kids leant and waved to engine drivers. Loco sheds had virtually open access, especially towards the end of steam. If you went round a shed, fell in a pit, got run over or electrocuted it was your own silly fault, end of story (though I never heard of this happening!).

I was 13 in 1969 and concur. I trespassed on the railway sometimes with friends, sometimes alone. We were there to watch the trains or see the engines. If a shed foreman wouldn't let us in I have been known to climb through holes in fences, or over walls to gain access. We didn't do 'messing about' because a) we didn't want to get caught and b) we knew the railway was hazardous. I weighed stones and a train weighed tons - you didn't need a grounding in Newtonian mechanics to know that you'd come off worst in a competition with one. I didn't need to be told that you kept away from overhead wires, or didn't mess by the edge of a cliff or cross a road without looking for traffic. I can't believe most 13 year-olds then and now are any different.

 

[Warwick]

Wearing my Chartered Electrical Engineer's hat I think you might be surprised just how close you can get to a 25kV line in safety. The usually accepted figure for the breakdown voltage of dry air is 1kV per mm. That means you would have to be within an 25mm for the danger of an arc. Of course dampness and salinity of the air increase that distance. You wouldn't get me within a foot of an energised 25kV line.

Thankyou for that. I do get annoyed by the keep nine feet away hysteria.