Scotland's 'polar express'

[sheff1]

The Sleep Guarantee might be an issue though. All those unhappy customers demanding a refund.

Premier Inn won't pay out on that 'Guarantee' even when the problem is with their equipment, so they would surely fob off anyone complaining about external noise.

In good old days good old steam trains would be preheated before departing.

Same with the diesel locos which replaced them. You could buy piping hot soup from the buffet car as well.

 

[chuff chuff]

Add 334 and 158 to the list,honestly think they don't care.....

You could add 170's to the list as well maybe not as often.Basically they need the set out in service,remember being told years ago when some of the sets heating was poor that we shouldn't worry about the coach temperatures as it was the passengers decision to sit in it or not.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What a completely rotten attitude for management

 

[Bill57p9]

You could add 170's to the list as well maybe not as often.Basically they need the set out in service,remember being told years ago when some of the sets heating was poor that we shouldn't worry about the coach temperatures as it was the passengers decision to sit in it or not.

If there is a choice of where to sit, fair enough.
When there isn’t, that is a very poor attitude. (“It was the passengers decision to take the train rather than the bus/car and help to keep me in a job”, etc, etc.)

 

[scotraildriver]

It must be remembered that these units are 35 years old and similar to the 318s,320s and 153s not to mention the HSTs. Just keeping them going is a big challenge for engineering staff. The ageing fleet is putting huge pressure on depots just to keep things running. Often it's a case of running a train with faults or no train at all. Scotgov have left procurement of new fleets far too late and insist on faffing about with hybrid/battery nonsense resulting in ongoing issues and increasing maintenance costs. We need a big order for new fleets. Now.

 

[ainsworth74]

It must be remembered that these units are 35 years old and similar to the 318s,320s and 153s not to mention the HSTs. Just keeping them going is a big challenge for engineering staff. The ageing fleet is putting huge pressure on depots just to keep things running. Often it's a case of running a train with faults or no train at all. Scotgov have left procurement of new fleets far too late and insist on faffing about with hybrid/battery nonsense resulting in ongoing issues and increasing maintenance costs. We need a big order for new fleets. Now.

Don't dispute that as I do think that the 15x fleet getting quite long in the tooth seems to have snuck up on people (and I include myself in that) so we really do need to get on with a replacement program. At least for the 150, 153, 155 and 156 fleets any way. But! This cold train issue doesn't appear to effect Northern examples (at least those that have been with it for a while) so does suggest that whatever Scotrail did to them has been a negative from a passenger point of view and that can't just be down to difficulty in getting spares as Northern are managing to find spares for the original heating system.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Don't dispute that as I do think that the 15x fleet getting quite long in the tooth seems to have snuck up on people (and I include myself in that) so we really do need to get on with a replacement program. At least for the 150, 153, 155 and 156 fleets any way. But! This cold train issue doesn't appear to effect Northern examples (at least those that have been with it for a while) so does suggest that whatever Scotrail did to them has been a negative from a passenger point of view and that can't just be down to difficulty in getting spares as Northern are managing to find spares for the original heating system.

Scottrail doing something negative for its passengers? Never, not in a million years. Oh hang on a minute...

It must be remembered that these units are 35 years old and similar to the 318s,320s and 153s not to mention the HSTs. Just keeping them going is a big challenge for engineering staff. The ageing fleet is putting huge pressure on depots just to keep things running. Often it's a case of running a train with faults or no train at all. Scotgov have left procurement of new fleets far too late and insist on faffing about with hybrid/battery nonsense resulting in ongoing issues and increasing maintenance costs. We need a big order for new fleets. Now.

Would be really interesting to hear what sort of challenges from an engineering point of view SR depots are facing, but I have to say that the last couple of times I've been on a 318 320 I've experienced no noticeable problems with heating. As to your other comment regarding Scottish government fleet procurement or lack thereof, it's just yet another project regarding transport that I couldn't trust the current shower in charge in Edinburgh to manage with any degree of competency and the longer it goes on the more they're feelings will be highlighted by a much wider range of people, absolutely embarrassing for a nation that supposedly wants to become independent and can't keep its house in order even now despite a regular and seemingly bottomless bank transfer from the mothership

 

[jagardner1984]

seemingly bottomless bank transfer from the mothership

I’m not sure this kind of commentary is particularly helpful. Governments in Westminster and Holyrood (and indeed Cardiff and Belfast) are certainly not faultless.

However it is precisely because this is categorically not true (or even close to it) that difficult choices must be made to benefit most people in the shortest time.

The economic forecasts would suggest it is likely to get a lot tougher before it is likely to improve.

However, the delay in procurement of 156 replacement (and similar issues with ageing and failing diesel fleets will be faced in all parts of these islands) must be put in the context of the transformation of Scotland’s railways over the last 20 odd years, well documented in the thread on here, with progress on decarbonisation, enormous infrastructure upgrades, new routes which in some ways are significantly ahead of other parts of the UK.

You clearly have a political view and are of course entirely entitled to it. However I am entirely confident new Governments in Westminster and Holyrood will not be the silver bullet to all the operational problems in all corners of all rural railways. As two brutal numerical examples, the investment in Crossrail benefits dramatically more passengers than improvements to 156 Heating in Workington, just as investment in electrifying the Edinburgh and Glasgow Main line has benefitted dramatically more passengers than improvements to 156 heating in Oban. Such challenges are faced everywhere, and uncomfortable choices on cuts and priorities must be made, however much you may deem them to be the responsibility of the “current shower” in Holyrood.

It links in some ways to a post I made in the Mk5 Chiltern Thread - given Diesel traction will be around for a while and increasingly problematic - it surprises me there isn’t more development around some form of automatic “docking” point under trains on arrival at termini - which allows for the ancillary functions of the train (lighting, heating etc) to be provided electrically whilst stationary - with diesel taking over moments before departure as part of the automatic removal of the docked power, thus removing all but a few seconds of emissions within train sheds on arrival / departure, and not the intervening 30 odd minutes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On your final point regarding some kind of land based power for rail vehicles I completely agree, the maritime industry has also been very slow in adopting this but does appear to all of a sudden be trying to make this happen, a fair site easier I should think plugging in a water-based vessel than a cavalcade of rail vehicles that presumably would have to arrive and stop at a designated point pretty much right on the button for something like this to work, but surely not impossible, and when you think about it the biggest strain on resources such as heating or air conditioning is probably at stations particularly terminus points as the doors are constantly opening and shutting and other activities that may generate heat such as train cleaning may be taking place

Furthermore can you imagine how quiet stations such as Edinburgh or Leeds would be if it wasn't for the constant background rumble of a dozen or more diesel engines making communication between staff and passengers or staff and staff that little more challenging as well as pumping out fumes, for those who are bothered about such things

 

[norbitonflyer]

BBC reports:

In good old days good old steam trains would be preheated before departing. May be this is too old-fashioned nowadays?

Indeed, but a steam locomotive, when not moving, is a lot quieter than a diesel. A gentle hiss at worst.

Incidentally, i recall some redundant diesel locomotives used to be used to pre-heat hauled stock. Some of these were Class 15s, which never had boilers (or ETH). Were they heating eectric or steam heated rolling stock and, in either case, how was it done?

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed, but a steam locomotive, when not moving, is a lot quieter than a diesel. A gentle hiss at worst.

Incidentally, i recall some redundant diesel locomotives used to be used to pre-heat hauled stock. Some of these were Class 15s, which never had boilers (or ETH). Were they heating eectric or steam heated rolling stock and, in either case, how was it done?

They were modified to provide electric train supply off the generator, originally in connection with the introduction of mark 2D air-con stock.

A previous discussion on this forum, including a link to a related RCTS page, can be found here:

Ex locos as carriage heaters

Thought this would be an interesting conversation for discussion... Two questions from me to kick off. First, how late into 1968 were the last ex-LNER B1 carriage heating locos in use? Second, how extensive was the conversion of class 15 locos into carriage heaters? Could the locos move on...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Howardh]

Is it as cold in the drivers' cab - in which case could they drive the train properly, or is it heated by another method?

 

[bleeder4]

Indeed, but a steam locomotive, when not moving, is a lot quieter than a diesel. A gentle hiss at worst.

Only for a while, and then it starts getting very noisy. After a period of being stationary the cylinder drain cocks will need to be opened to clear the cylinders, plus boiler safety valve will probably be lifting to relieve the pressure there. The longer they're left stationary, the more they start to complain...

 

[ainsworth74]

Today I had a long term Northern resident 156 in the morning which was nice and warm. Then this evening a Scotrail import and it is notably cooler.

Now, it's hardly chilly today. But interesting to see that there absolutely is difference in the effectiveness of the heating.

 

[scotraildriver]

Is it as cold in the drivers' cab - in which case could they drive the train properly, or is it heated by another method?

The cabs have their own heater which is always toasty.

 

[chuff chuff]

The cabs have their own heater which is always toasty.

No there no.

 

[Retorus]

No there no.

Pardon?

 

[chuff chuff]

Pardon?

The cabs are not always toasty,most the time they are okay,sometimes toasty and sometimes there so bad I've refused to take them.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I wouldn't deny it's time that the 156s were replaced with a modern unit. Probably one where Northern, TfW, and Scotrail work together to design a long distance unit that delivers a balance of essential services off-season and high specification tourist unit. Probably meaning centre cars are stored. November until Easter.

But, let's be sensible, there is an engineering problem with a heating unit. If that heating unit was replaced with one with a high performance, the units would be cozy. Diesel heaters are old tech, they are effective, they are safe when installed correctly, a small unit can throw out 8kW of heat.

These 156s will be running for at least 5 more winters, so an upgraded heating system is absolutely justifiable.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Transport Scotland said heating issues had been reported to ScotRail on the 08:21 Glasgow to Oban services on two occasions during random on-board testing.

The on-board heating was found to be below the ambient temperature on one occasion.

Er... what?

The optimum temperature at which to listen to a Brian Eno record

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

However, the delay in procurement of 156 replacement (and similar issues with ageing and failing diesel fleets will be faced in all parts of these islands)

Speaking specifically of West Cumbria, we’re currently stuck with 155s and 156s being the only things allowed to run the entire line, so they’d best get their finger out and find us something else or it’s RRBs all round.

As two brutal numerical examples, the investment in Crossrail benefits dramatically more passengers than improvements to 156 Heating in Workington

In terms of pure number of passengers, no doubt. In terms of cost per passenger, I suspect fixing our heating would be a lot cheaper though, especially given the amount of ground those 156s cover across the North West and North East.

There’s talk of money being spent to add additional stations and track to support the new mine in Whitehaven and the potential new nuclear plant at Sellafield, with the intention workers will be tempted onto the trains - a crush loaded 156 that’s freezing cold at 6AM on a winter’s day isn’t going to do anyone any favours.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Only for a while, and then it starts getting very noisy. After a period of being stationary the cylinder drain cocks will need to be opened to clear the cylinders, plus boiler safety valve will probably be lifting to relieve the pressure there. The longer they're left stationary, the more they start to complain...

Not if you've got a half decent fireman!

 

[jagardner1984]

Speaking specifically of West Cumbria, we’re currently stuck with 155s and 156s being the only things allowed to run the entire line, so they’d best get their finger out and find us something else or it’s RRBs all round.


In terms of pure number of passengers, no doubt. In terms of cost per passenger, I suspect fixing our heating would be a lot cheaper though, especially given the amount of ground those 156s cover across the North West and North East.

There’s talk of money being spent to add additional stations and track to support the new mine in Whitehaven and the potential new nuclear plant at Sellafield, with the intention workers will be tempted onto the trains - a crush loaded 156 that’s freezing cold at 6AM on a winter’s day isn’t going to do anyone any favours.

Totally agree - but it is also easy to see how upgrading heating on 35 year old trains is not nearly as “sexy” an infrastructure investment as some others politicians may wish to be photographed with - mainly highlighting that such issues were not exclusively found at the door of the government in Holyrood, which seemed to be an earlier implication in the thread - and you have perfectly highlighted other remarkably similar examples too.

The will they / won’t they on electrification and viability of battery technology will doubtless prolong the use of these trains well into the next decade, since there isn’t a particularly obvious source of large numbers of diesel, very light, very 2 car, very versatile go (almost) anywhere trains to cascade to these routes.

 

[glenbogle]

The heating or lack of it is so bad, I and many others now take the Citylink to Oban and Fort William.
What used to be really cosy trains and a pleasure to travel in are now just awful.
I wonder if the 153 is the same, not travelled in it. ( bicycle carriage )

 

[Mountain Man]

Speaking specifically of West Cumbria, we’re currently stuck with 155s and 156s being the only things allowed to run the entire line, so they’d best get their finger out and find us something else or it’s RRBs all round.

The Procurement for the 15x series replacements was launched a while ago by Northern

The interesting one in this context is whether ScotRail seek a common solution

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Premier Inn won't pay out on that 'Guarantee' even when the problem is with their equipment, so they would surely fob off anyone complaining about external noise.

Same with the diesel locos which replaced them. You could buy piping hot soup from the buffet car as well.

ScotRail should not give in to pressure from the likes of Premier Inn.
I don’t know about them but where their rival TravelLodge has such situations, they offer a quieter upgrade room for a 10/20% premium on their website. That is for their central city nightlife hotels eg Southend, applies to Oban Station
With climate warming such cold carriages must be happening few & few days a year. Flexibility needed by ScotRail to start trains early in on the coldest days

 

[Spsf3232]

Starting the train a good time before departure may not solve the problem, very doubtful the engines will get up to a good enough temperature while idle and need to be driven to bring them up and produce heat

 

[1Q18]

Perhaps electric auxiliary heaters which can run off a shore line would be an idea for locations such as Oban and Mallaig, either for the 156s or for whatever replaces them. Greener than running off diesel and silent to avoid disturbing the neighbours.

 

[philthetube]

On your final point regarding some kind of land based power for rail vehicles I completely agree, the maritime industry has also been very slow in adopting this but does appear to all of a sudden be trying to make this happen, a fair site easier I should think plugging in a water-based vessel than a cavalcade of rail vehicles that presumably would have to arrive and stop at a designated point pretty much right on the button for something like this to work, but surely not impossible, and when you think about it the biggest strain on resources such as heating or air conditioning is probably at stations particularly terminus points as the doors are constantly opening and shutting and other activities that may generate heat such as train cleaning may be taking place

Furthermore can you imagine how quiet stations such as Edinburgh or Leeds would be if it wasn't for the constant background rumble of a dozen or more diesel engines making communication between staff and passengers or staff and staff that little more challenging as well as pumping out fumes, for those who are bothered about such things

Not difficult to achieve, Trains are parked fight on the button now, it is just a case of installing equipment in the correct place for the stock using it.

If these trains are cold after 2 hours in service, as stated upthread then leaving them idling will achieve nothing.