Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Peter Sarf]

This would make perfect sense... if signals were all at eye level for the driver.

EDITED - Sorry, I had to wait for my laptop to re-boot as the mouse right click stopped working !.

For the purposes of this argument the signals are quite close to eye level. Certainly at the sort of distance a driver would be wanting to sight the signals correctly the line of sight is near horizontal as a driver would want to see a signal a long way off. Obviously when the signal is very close to the train then the line of sight might well be perpendicular to the glass. But the train is likely to be stationary at the signal for the driver to care what the aspect is in that situation (distance).

The windows are a lot further off vertical thAn the sight line is off horizontal.

All a bit academic as it is looking increasingly likely that the windows are indeed curved and that the curvature is the problem. In that case I am wondering how drivers of the (rather nice looking) Class 309 EMUs coped. Also were the Swindon built trans-penning DMUs not similar ?.

 

[47271]

EDITED - Sorry, I had to wait for my laptop to re-boot as the mouse right click stopped working !.

For the purposes of this argument the signals are quite close to eye level. Certainly at the sort of distance a driver would be wanting to sight the signals correctly the line of sight is near horizontal as a driver would want to see a signal a long way off. Obviously when the signal is very close to the train then the line of sight might well be perpendicular to the glass. But the train is likely to be stationary at the signal for the driver to care what the aspect is in that situation (distance).

The windows are a lot further off vertical thAn the sight line is off horizontal.

All a bit academic as it is looking increasingly likely that the windows are indeed curved and that the curvature is the problem. In that case I am wondering how drivers of the (rather nice looking) Class 309 EMUs coped. Also were the Swindon built trans-penning DMUs not similar ?.

Not only the Clactons and the old Transpennine units but, more relevantly, Glasgow area 303s and 311s as originally constructed. The curve was very much off to the side of the screen however and the forward facing surface was almost entirely flat. And the curved glazing was replaced relatively early in the lives of the units.

I'm not denying that there's a problem here, but my car has a curved windscreen and yet I don't see double and get confused as I approach traffic lights or other bright objects at speed. Genuine question - what's the difference?

 

[GusB]

Although the windscreen is an odd shape and set at an angle, the suface of the glass itself is actually flat (this doesn't come across well in photos but is readily apparent when looking at the real thing). The concerns raised by ASLEF may or may not be valid but unless you've physically sat in the driving position (again photos don't tell the whole story) I don't think you - or most posters here - are really able to give informed comment on the issue.

As an aside, all the photos I've seen of the class 385 cabs suggest to me that the windscreens are curved based on images with reflections from many angles.

Are the windscreens curved or flat? There doesn't seem to be much agreement here.

 

[superkev]

Not only the Clactons and the old Transpennine units but, more relevantly, Glasgow area 303s and 311s as originally constructed. The curve was very much off to the side of the screen however and the forward facing surface was almost entirely flat. And the curved glazing was replaced relatively early in the lives of the units.

I'm not denying that there's a problem here, but my car has a curved windscreen and yet I don't see double and get confused as I approach traffic lights or other bright objects at speed. Genuine question - what's the difference?

Presumably glazing in trains is very thick to resist impacts from bricks etc.
K

 

[mcmad]

I'm not denying that there's a problem here, but my car has a curved windscreen and yet I don't see double and get confused as I approach traffic lights or other bright objects at speed. Genuine question - what's the difference?

Wasn't aware that a double amber aspect had been added to traffic lights

 

[Highlandspring]

Are the windscreens curved or flat? There doesn't seem to be much agreement here.

The glass itself is flat, though it is raked back at an angle from the centreline to the body end and is considerably closer to the vertical than a 380. The arc at the top of the windscreen is deceptive and can make it appear in photos like the surface of the glass is curved but it isn't. People who are repeating the claim that the windscreens are curved have not taken the time to actually look at a unit in real life a and/or are just repeating what has been written in the media. I can't say whether or not ASLEF have a valid point regarding reflections but the claim in the media that the units have curved windscreens "like a fishbowl" is, in my opinion, erroneous. Ironically photos tend to distort the appearance but here are a few I found on Flickr..

Wasn't aware that a double amber aspect had been added to traffic lights

I wasn't aware a "double amber" aspect had been added to railway signals

 

[Bletchleyite]

Highlandspring - the picture you have posted definitely makes the glass look curved. This is particularly notable in the reflection in it being curved, if it was flat there would not be that distortion.

Amazed they had the gall to put "built in the North East" on - "Made in England" is hardly an accolade within Scotland, and there is no train factory I know of in Wick!

TBH, the whole unit looks badly designed to me. A cheap imitation of the excellent Class 380. Or at least I hope it was cheap. If it wasn't, Transport Scotland have been ripped off for political reasons (of having a factory in England). The only nice thing about it appears to be the seat pitch, and you could do that right in any unit.

 

[Highlandspring]

I can only suggest that you go an examine an actual unit then, like I have.

 

[385001]

Article on BBC Scotland page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43057644

Humza Yousaf 'listening' to train windscreen concerns

• 58 minutes ago

Image copyrightDAVE SOUZA
Image captionTest drivers have complained about the impact of the curved windscreen on the new trains
Scotland's transport minister says the government is listening to union concerns about the new fleet of electric trains.

Humza Yousaf said it was "imperative for the train manufacturer, Hitachi, and ScotRail to find a solution."

Aslef said drivers had reported a windscreen design flaw causing them to see more than one signal at night.

The train drivers' union is threatening to boycott the trains, which had been due to come into service in March.

Speaking on the Good Morning Scotland programme, Mr Yousaf said train maker Hitachi was working on the issue and that the "point of testing was for drivers to be able to input their feedback into the new trains."

Kevin Lindsey from Aslef has previously called upon the transport minister to intervene.

He said: "I've been involved in the railway for 30 years and seen many a new train come to Scotland, but I've never known a train where a driver can't see the signals through the windscreen."

Night time test
Scotrail has ordered 46 three-car and 24 four-car sets, which are due to be rolled out on the newly electrified Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street route.

During a recent night time test run, drivers reported seeing reflections of other signals in the curved windscreen.

Responding to their concerns, Mr Yousaf said: "Passenger safety must be the number-one priority.

"We should listen to what the drivers have to say and find a solution to that."

The minister has been discussing the problem with Scotrail who, in turn, have been seeking other solutions from Hitachi.

Image copyrightSCOTRAIL
Image captionThe first of 70 new electric trains ordered by Scotrail
Mr Yousaf said taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for modifications and that any penalties for the late introduction of the trains would be settled between Scotrail and Hitachi.

Asked whether he thought the trains would go into service on schedule, he said: "Clearly to find a solution, that is going to take time, so I wouldn't absolutely say that it is going to be March.

"We are going to push (Hitachi) to remain to the latest timetable, but it will depend on the solution and the time that is required for that."

 

[mcmad]

I wasn't aware a "double amber" aspect had been added to railway signals

Railway signals are yellow traffic lights are amber as you well know.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No, whoever designed it is responsible. If they felt it was not possible to design a gangwayed front end without the problem, they should have refused.

FWIW that picture is fairly early...it doesn't even show plug doors.

Of course the modern profit driven world sometimes doesn't work quite like that but you are correct.

If i feel something to be unsafe I do not do it. But in some companies the personal consequences of taking that stand are severe enough to prevent a lot of people doing it.

 

[Class83]

Would applying a polarizing coating to the window help?

 

[InOban]

It seems tonight's delivery has been cancelled. Certainly the engine movement from Tyne yard has been cancelled due to problems with the schedule, according to RTT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would applying a polarizing coating to the window help?

I suspect something like this will end up being the solution if viable. Anything else like changing the shape of the window is going to be hugely costly because it affects crashworthiness and so would require lengthy additional testing.

 

[Girner]

Highlandspring - the picture you have posted definitely makes the glass look curved. This is particularly notable in the reflection in it being curved, if it was flat there would not be that distortion.

Amazed they had the gall to put "built in the North East" on - "Made in England" is hardly an accolade within Scotland, and there is no train factory I know of in Wick!

TBH, the whole unit looks badly designed to me. A cheap imitation of the excellent Class 380. Or at least I hope it was cheap. If it wasn't, Transport Scotland have been ripped off for political reasons (of having a factory in England). The only nice thing about it appears to be the seat pitch, and you could do that right in any unit.

Have a day off mate. First prize for the most negative post i've read in a while.

 

[800001]

Highlandspring - the picture you have posted definitely makes the glass look curved. This is particularly notable in the reflection in it being curved, if it was flat there would not be that distortion.

Amazed they had the gall to put "built in the North East" on - "Made in England" is hardly an accolade within Scotland, and there is no train factory I know of in Wick!

TBH, the whole unit looks badly designed to me. A cheap imitation of the excellent Class 380. Or at least I hope it was cheap. If it wasn't, Transport Scotland have been ripped off for political reasons (of having a factory in England). The only nice thing about it appears to be the seat pitch, and you could do that right in any unit.

'Built in the North East' stickers were only applied for the launch to the press at Newton Aycliffe. They do not carry this on the finished trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Looking at the pictures I note that in the first picture the reflection seems distorted in a manner that indicates the glass is curved.

In the last picture it very much looks as though the bottom of the window could possibly be flat. BUT there appears to be a significant curve in the top corner of the same window which might be where a signal would be seen at close quarters.

 

[InOban]

It looks as if tonight's delivery is also cancelled. Maybe they're trying to get a solution to the issue.

 

[92002]

Looking at the pictures I note that in the first picture the reflection seems distorted in a manner that indicates the glass is curved.

In the last picture it very much looks as though the bottom of the window could possibly be flat. BUT there appears to be a significant curve in the top corner of the same window which might be where a signal would be seen at close quarters.

Had a close up look at a 385 again and can confirm that rhe windscreen is indeed flat.

The problem may lie in the way it is presented, in that it is presented at an angle off the square as can be seen in the photographs. Presumably for aerodynamic looks.

To get the windscreen to be tough enough to deflect objects means that is considerably thick glass.

So you either have thinner glass and better vision or thicker glass with distortion around the extreme edges. However signals should be viewed through the middle of the glass.

It's not rocket science it's one or the other but not both.

 

[47271]

Oh dear, this was inevitable...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...he_carriages_on_Glasgow_to_Edinburgh_service/

SCOTRAIL have made an apology after being forced to cut the number of carriages on some Glasgow to Edinburgh trains by half - leading to fears of passenger overcrowding.

The late arrival of its class 385 electric fleet will leave the the Dutch operator of ScotRail short because the lease on four of its present trains expires in weeks.

It means that peak-hour trains, which normally operated with six carriages, would only have three or four.

The train operator said it expects up to 12 trains a day to run with fewer carriages than normal - equivalent to the loss of around 1500 seats a day.

In an attempt to compensate, ScotRail has announced that from Monday it will cut fares by half on the secondary Glasgow to Edinburgh route via Bathgate and Airdrie route, from £26 to £13.

The disruption is expect to last from February 26 to May 20. A ScotRail spokesman said: “As we prepare for our brand new Hitachi class 385 trains, we are making some changes to our Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High service.

“This will result in a small number of services having a reduced number of seats. “Customers should plan their journey in advance.
“We are sorry for any inconvenience this will cause customers.

“Customers travelling between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh via Airdrie will be able to benefit from a reduced return fare of £13 - almost half the current price.”

The spokesman also stressed that some services on the main line were run by class 380 electric trains, which operated with seven carriages at peak hours.

 

[mcmad]

Yet again the focus is only on those travelling end to end on the E&G, what about all the other stations on the E&G and those other services which are going to be short formed until the 385's come into service?

 

[47271]

Yet again the focus is only on those travelling end to end on the E&G, what about all the other stations on the E&G and those other services which are going to be short formed until the 385's come into service?

Yes, I thought that too.

This looks like a proactive piece of news management: get out an apology for the route where there's an alternative, and a discount into the bargain, and hope that noone picks up on the rest where there's no other way round.

 

[hexagon789]

It may have been mentioned before, but I'm curious on a couple of things:

1. How good is the acceleration, a 380 is supposed to take 39 seconds to reach 60 mph, any word as to how a 385 compares?

2. What are the driving controls like? I assume they have a combined traction/brake controller but do they have a 3-step brake or fully variable and is the application of power notched as a 314/318/320 is or a continous range like a 380?

 

[SC318250]

318/320 to feature on Inverclyde routes more frequently from May, according to a post on Scot-rail. Mmmhhh

 

[route101]

318/320 to feature on Inverclyde routes more frequently from May, according to a post on Scot-rail. Mmmhhh

Back to the future . I think a few 320s have been that way recently , as for 318s first time since 2011?

 

[380101]

It may have been mentioned before, but I'm curious on a couple of things:

1. How good is the acceleration, a 380 is supposed to take 39 seconds to reach 60 mph, any word as to how a 385 compares?

2. What are the driving controls like? I assume they have a combined traction/brake controller but do they have a 3-step brake or fully variable and is the application of power notched as a 314/318/320 is or a continous range like a 380?

No idea on the acceleration of the 385, but the 4 car versions will be fairly similar to 4 car 380s probably - its approx 50secs to 60 for a 4 car 380. 39secs is 3 car or 6 car 380 acceleration to 60. The 3 car 385 will possibly be slower acceleration than the 3 car 380 as it only has 3 powered bogies compared to the 4 on a 380. This was done to save 1.5tonnes in weight (and alot of money).

385 has a combined power brake controller with variable braking and continuous power 0% - 100%. The 385 cab control layout was based on the 380 design.

 

[AlexNL]

The cab was designed by DCA Design, some pictures of their work can be found here:

https://www.dca-design.com/work/hitachi-class-385-central-gangway-drivers-cab

 

[clc]

Railway chief targets Edinburgh-Glasgow in 39 minutes

The head of Scotland’s railway wants to cut Edinburgh-Glasgow journeys to just 39 minutes as a “game- changer” to attract more passengers. New electric trains are due to reduce the fastest trips from 52 minutes to 42 minutes in December, but Alex Hynes is looking at ways of making them even quicker. The news came as ScotRail sources told Scotland on Sunday the delayed fleet was not now due to enter service until May – a further two months later than expected. Hynes, managing director of the ScotRail Alliance with track owner Network Rail, is to examine possible track improvements and raising speed limits.

Ministers have said in the past the line is so important that cutting a minute off the journey would boost the economy by £60 million. Hynes said: “I always aspire to do better for customers and push boundaries.

“Getting to 39 minutes would be a game-changer in terms of public perception – it would change the whole mindset of commuting between the two cities.” It is not known when the time saving could be achieved, but Hynes is keen to use a sub-40 minute journey to help market the service

Railway writer Phil Haigh, who revealed the plan in RAIL magazine, said the trains’ powerful acceleration would help achieve it. He said: “My impression is they have got a bit more oomph than Hynes might have originally thought.” Transport Scotland, which cut back original plans for 37- minute journeys in 2012 to save money, backed the move. Its spokesman said: “The Scottish Government welcomes the ambition of the ScotRail Alliance to further improve journey times between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Faster trains attract more passengers and improve resource efficiency.”

The Hitachi trains were due to have been introduced five months ago but have been delayed by production problems and faults during electrification of the line. Now drivers say they are unable to see signals clearly through the windscreen, which is expected to contribute to a further delay until at least mid-May. ScotRail will be forced to cut carriages on some rush-hour trains until then.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ets-edinburgh-glasgow-in-39-minutes-1-4691005

 

[clc]

No idea on the acceleration of the 385, but the 4 car versions will be fairly similar to 4 car 380s probably - its approx 50secs to 60 for a 4 car 380. 39secs is 3 car or 6 car 380 acceleration to 60. The 3 car 385 will possibly be slower acceleration than the 3 car 380 as it only has 3 powered bogies compared to the 4 on a 380. This was done to save 1.5tonnes in weight (and alot of money).

According to this article a 4-car 385 accelerates to 60mph in 47 seconds:

https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/02/07/on-board-scotrails-new-class-385/

Travelling on the empty four-car unit was a weird, though impressive experience. The ride was smooth as the train accelerated up to 60 mph in 47 seconds. The Class 170 units that currently operate the Edinburgh to Glasgow service take around one minute 50 seconds to reach this speed.

 

[James James]

Railway chief targets Edinburgh-Glasgow in 39 minutes


https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ets-edinburgh-glasgow-in-39-minutes-1-4691005

Once that happens, they'll need to go and get some double deckers to fit the crowds.

Stadler have experience in that department, and can probably deliver them on schedule to boot