Scotrail HST alternatives?

[gingertom]

Yeah and be a damn sight more reliable than the current offering! I’m led to believe the training is nothing like what was required for the HST so should be much simpler to achieve.

provided whichever depot gets the allocation can get to grips with the maintenance.

 

[chuff chuff]

The 222's are a closer fit to what the fitting staff are used to compared dumping locomotives on them,likely there wouldn't be many left from the days when locos were an everyday occurrence.Same with train crews overall not many of us left who had worked locos even less those who had worked hst's.

 

[Wynd]

Which neatly takes us to the primary point.

OOC and Craigentinny delivered very good reliability from the HST. Haymarket, as yet, has not managed to replicate this.

Had they, I doubt we would be discussing early retirement of these machines from SR fleet.

 

[ld0595]

They must really really hate the HST if they're prepared to embark on another round of crew training across multiple depots on totally new units. In practical terms though, other than crew training, presumably it would just need some saltire vinyls, seat covers, carpets and internal paint to get the 222 into use

Maintenance training aside, would it be that much of a undertaking to train drivers/guards to work the 222s? They did it pretty quickly when 365s were brought in (albeit presumably with fewer depots.)

 

[gingertom]

Maintenance training aside, would it be that much of a undertaking to train drivers/guards to work the 222s? They did it pretty quickly when 365s were brought in (albeit presumably with fewer depots.)

if this does come to fruition, how do you see them set up? 5 car sets with a couple of 6s and several spare cars?

 

[Goldromans]

if this does come to fruition, how do you see them set up? 5 car sets with a couple of 6s and several spare cars?

I would imagine a uniform fleet of 5-cars would be preferable?

 

[Blindtraveler]

How possible would it be to make them all six car?

 

[Energy]

How possible would it be to make them all six car?

Currently, there are 4 7 car units and 23 5 car units, you could configure them as 8 6 car units and 19 5 car units.

 

[John Bishop]

How possible would it be to make them all six car?

6 car sets would be a dream come true for travellers on the HML during the summer! To be honest, this is exactly what needs to happen. This year has been a **** show on the HML with overcrowding. A 4+2 doesn’t cut the mustard these days given the passenger volumes. Bring on the 222s I’d say!

 

[Speed43125]

In the relatively short term, ScotRail/Transport Scotland are very keen on the class 222s and rumours are that they are already lined up as replacements as soon as they become available.

In the longer term, ScotRail are looking at three new fleet types to work alongside the existing class
380s and 385s, and 170s Everything else will be replaced.

Short distance/commuter, electric only 5 car units which will concentrate on the Argyle Line/North Clyde/Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh routes, in addition to providing additional resource for south bank services on Lanark, Inverclyde and Cathcart routes - replacing 318, 320 and 334.

New 3/4 car bi or tri mode units to replace class 156/158 units - longer distance commuter and inter urban, will work Fife/Borders/SW Scotland/Dundee to Central
belt, Aberdeen/Inverness, potentially West and North Highland but these tbc.

A new bi or tri mode intercity unit will be tendered once the class 222 are life expired in the 2030s.

The advantage of this is that there will be a common fleet operating in more of the country, particularly Fife & the Borders, and these will also be able to draw power from the wires where they are erected over greater distances.

Minor point that the 170s are to replaced under the TS plans as well. The purpose is full scale decarbonization, and DMMUs like the turbostars obviously don't fit with that.

 

[Blindtraveler]

4 coaches or even 5 on Highland mainline services was inadequate back when the HST was first introduced, the only reason it's lasted so long unchallenged is because of the pandemic and they are simply going to lose business due to severe overcrowding and people deciding to drive or go by coach, many of the coach services are quicker anyway but I'm aware this is now drifting off topic

 

[Clansman]

4 coaches or even 5 on Highland mainline services was inadequate back when the HST was first introduced, the only reason it's lasted so long unchallenged is because of the pandemic and they are simply going to lose business due to severe overcrowding and people deciding to drive or go by coach, many of the coach services are quicker anyway but I'm aware this is now drifting off topic

It's somewhat a bitter pill to swallow knowing that the two power cars are effectively just dead space that could otherwise have been a 6th carriage on a multiple unit.

Especially considering 222s are inefficient on capacity and luggage space (not helped by the tilt profile and the first class kitchen galley), 6-coach 222s should be the bare minimum in the scenario that they come up here.

 

[Energy]

Especially considering 222s are inefficient on capacity and luggage space (not helped by the tilt profile and the first class kitchen galley), 6-coach 222s should be the bare minimum in the scenario that they come up here.

206 standard and 32 first for a 4 car HST, 192 standard and 50 first for a 5 car class 222. Their low capacity is due to the generous first provision and a galley area.


Seat layout of a 5 car class 222

Seat layout of a 5 car Scotrail HST, the 4 car units are lacking a standard class coach.

 

[Chester1]

It's somewhat a bitter pill to swallow knowing that the two power cars are effectively just dead space that could otherwise have been a 6th carriage on a multiple unit.

I don't understand other enthusiasts love of loco hauled stock or power car stock. When platform lengths are short they are a tremendous waste of capacity.

Especially considering 222s are inefficient on capacity and luggage space (not helped by the tilt profile and the first class kitchen galley), 6-coach 222s should be the bare minimum in the scenario that they come up here.

222s are of an age where a major refit and more dense layout would be justified but it wouldn't be cheap or quick. Post 368 demonstrates the limitations that Scotrail would have to work around. They need the whole fleet.

206 standard and 32 first for a 4 car HST, 192 standard and 50 first for a 5 car class 222. Their low capacity is due to the generous first provision and a galley area.

View attachment 141761
Seat layout of a 5 car class 222

Seat layout of a 5 car Scotrail HST, the 4 car units are lacking a standard class coach.

The most obvious quick win would be converting coach D / K to all standard seating. I wonder if a member with expertise knows if anything could be done at a reasonable cost to replace the kitchen?

 

[Energy]

I don't understand other enthusiasts love of loco hauled stock or power car stock. When platform lengths are short they are a tremendous waste of capacity.



222s are of an age where a major refit and more dense layout would be justified but it wouldn't be cheap or quick. Post 368 demonstrates the limitations that Scotrail would have to work around. They need the whole fleet.



The most obvious quick win would be converting coach D / K to all standard seating. I wonder if a member with expertise knows if anything could be done at a reasonable cost to replace the kitchen?

Agreed, going by coach A/N it should be possible to convert it into a few rows of first and some luggage space beyond the doors.

 

[Clansman]

It's an economic no brainer to accept the galley as dead space, or use as make shift luggage van rather than go through the effort to remove it (which would also negate the need for additional luggage racks). Additional cycle spaces in place of 4 bays (2 windows worth) and flipping the ratio of standard:first class seats in the composite coach (or fully reinstating it to standard and accepting a decreased first class capacity vice a HST, 32 < 22) would also bring them in line with a reasonable enough compromise so long as you can reform some sets into 6 coaches.

I still can't see it happening though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On the subject of, can't see it happening, if you'd ask me a year ago I would have agreed but if they can pull this off and get them rolling into service quickly in other words before the 2025 Scottish parliamentary elections then it would be seen as a relatively straightforward if costly victory for a government whose transport policy has been in tatters for a long while and has taken a significant battery in its not insignificant shipping and maritime responsibilities as is well known and documented

 

[swaldman]

6 car sets would be a dream come true for travellers on the HML during the summer! To be honest, this is exactly what needs to happen. This year has been a **** show on the HML with overcrowding. A 4+2 doesn’t cut the mustard these days given the passenger volumes. Bring on the 222s I’d say!

That's if you *get* a 4+2. I'm sitting right now, surrounded by American tourists, on a 170 that was meant to be a 4+2. It is.... crowded. And the frustrating / enraging thing about it is that this is just how things were when I left Scotland in 2018... I come back five years later and nothing has changed.

 

[Energy]

reasonable enough compromise so long as you can reform some sets into 6 coaches.

6 car would be the 222 equivalent of a 5 car HST. The 222s are a lower density layout than the ex-GWR HSTs.

 

[John Bishop]

That's if you *get* a 4+2. I'm sitting right now, surrounded by American tourists, on a 170 that was meant to be a 4+2. It is.... crowded. And the frustrating / enraging thing about it is that this is just how things were when I left Scotland in 2018... I come back five years later and nothing has changed.

Yep, it’s a daily event on numerous services. You want to see the carnage when a 2 car 158 turns up!!

 

[Goldromans]

Is the unreliability of the HSTs more down to ScotRail's lack of experience operating these trains or to issues with the trains themselves? I imagine the fact ScotRail are lucky if they get half of them going a day is no small factor in all this (combined with the economics of actually running them). Are the 222's generally considered reliable?

 

[Wynd]

Is the unreliability of the HSTs more down to ScotRail's lack of experience operating these trains or to issues with the trains themselves? I imagine the fact ScotRail are lucky if they get half of them going a day is no small factor in all this (combined with the economics of actually running them). Are the 222's generally considered reliable?

If someone could answer this, it would be very much appreciated.

How the HST sets went from near flawless daily reliability under Craignetinny, and OOC, to barely half of them running under SR on any given day, really does need answering.

 

[Clansman]

6 car would be the 222 equivalent of a 5 car HST. The 222s are a lower density layout than the ex-GWR HSTs.

Of course. The key words in my post were...

a reasonable enough compromise

And that's before considering any mods to increase the standard class capacity by reducing the first class.

 

[swaldman]

If someone could answer this, it would be very much appreciated.

How the HST sets went from near flawless daily reliability under Craignetinny, and OOC, to barely half of them running under SR on any given day, really does need answering.

Somebody may correct me, but I don't think they're the same HST sets. The Scotrail ones are ex-GWR, not ex-LNER.
Now I have no idea whether it's down to the depot, or the trains, or a combination of the two... but both do seem to be options.

 

[gingertom]

Somebody may correct me, but I don't think they're the same HST sets. The Scotrail ones are ex-GWR, not ex-LNER.
Now I have no idea whether it's down to the depot, or the trains, or a combination of the two... but both do seem to be options.

It has been reported on other threads that there are 2 different manufacturers of traction motors. One has a design issue that makes it prone to flashovers and other issues affecting reliability, the other doesn't have the problem so require repair and service less often. There's variants in wheelslip protection electronics, the Scotrail ones are more prone to slipping, causing wheelset flats and needing visits to the lathe more often than you'd want. I'm sure there's other subtle differences that manifest themselves in poorer MTIN figures.

 

[Wynd]

AIUI the SR sets are prediminantly ex GWR sets.

Id hate to see the dispatch reliability. I saw a list fairly recently that showed that some of the power cars have never turned a wheel in anger under SR ownership...

 

[The Puddock]

AIUI the SR sets are prediminantly ex GWR sets.

Id hate to see the dispatch reliability. I saw a list fairly recently that showed that some of the power cars have never turned a wheel in anger under SR ownership...

Apart from the two that were acquired specifically for spares and were not part of the refurbishment program (43018 and 43185), all powercars in the fleet have worked. There are two long-term stoppers, 43128 which hasn’t worked since 2018 and 43169 which has been stopped since August 2022. Of these two 128 hasn’t worked a revenue passenger service but was used for driver training and to move sets to Haymarket from Doncaster.

 

[43096]

It has been reported on other threads that there are 2 different manufacturers of traction motors. One has a design issue that makes it prone to flashovers and other issues affecting reliability, the other doesn't have the problem so require repair and service less often.

The issues with the GEC motors mostly manifested themselves at speeds over 110mph. As ScotRail is 100mph maximum it follows that there shouldn't be anything like the issues when they were in 125mph service.

There's variants in wheelslip protection electronics, the Scotrail ones are more prone to slipping, causing wheelset flats and needing visits to the lathe more often than you'd want. I'm sure there's other subtle differences that manifest themselves in poorer MTIN figures.

Unlike all the other operators, FGW didn't upgrade their wheelsip/slide electronics back in the 2000s, for reasons that remain unfathomable to this day

AIUI the SR sets are prediminantly ex GWR sets.

The ScotRail sets are all Angel owned ex-GWR vehicles.

Id hate to see the dispatch reliability. I saw a list fairly recently that showed that some of the power cars have never turned a wheel in anger under SR ownership...

43128 has never operated for ScotRail in passenger service. It appears to be edging closer to a return. Allegedly.

 

[chuff chuff]

128 was i think robbed of a few parts but was rumoured several months ago to being refitted and returned to service...but no still sitting in the same road outside the shed at haymarket. There is another power car sitting just inside the shed same road with parts from the nose missing again for months god knows what else has been removed.
170410 has been lying up the head shunt for several weeks as well.

 

[gingertom]

Short distance/commuter, electric only 5 car units which will concentrate on the Argyle Line/North Clyde/Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh routes, in addition to providing additional resource for south bank services on Lanark, Inverclyde and Cathcart routes - replacing 318, 320 and 334.

I'm assuming the 5-car EMU would be using 23m coaches. Does this effectively rule out Stadler's FLIRT?