ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[hexagon789]

I pass Kilmarnock on my way to work every morning, noticed this morning when I passed that the shutter doors were up and there appears to be several (atleast 4) painted, new doors etc Mk3s inside.

Hmm, there's been the odd Mk3 going south to Kilmarnock over the past months, but none as yet returning, refurbished from there.

 

[GrimShady]

I seen an article online recently about leaking deckheads on MK3 classics. In all the years I've been using ECML I've never encountered this, is this an issue that plagues the ex GWR fleet?

 

[GrimShady]

I remember they used to call them Scuds after the Saddam Hussein regime's missiles because once they departed you never knew where they would end up the vast majority the new designs we have seen in recent years seem to be beset by teething problems of some sort.

That's right Paul, one of those thing s showed up you never knew where you'd end up, certainly not where you were supposed too.

I'm utterly convinced the teething issues are down to the way stock is built these days. Gone are the days of building a prototype, learning lessons from its design and improving upon it for the production models. Now it's straight from CAD to production line, BR had the right idea with th 91s where batch one would be constructed and thoroughly tested and modifications built into batch two. In the Marine world if we're building a series of ships there's always the class leader, similar setup applies.

Did one not split in half while in service or something equally apocalyptic (in railway terms)? I might be thinking of another unit.

That particular incident doesn't spring to mind, it was mostly engine issues with overheating I believe.

Wasn't there a 195 issue like that?

 

[AndrewE]

Did one not split in half while in service or something equally apocalyptic (in railway terms)? I might be thinking of another unit.

Maybe, but so did an HST on the ECML. Both down to lessons needing to be learnt at a depot, I suspect.

 

[Northhighland]

The cycle rank installation was after the installation of the Inergen fire system.

Inergen fire suppression is not unique to HST’s. It is used extensively elsewhere in the world.

no need not to use the power car storage. Whatever the reasons it isn’t the inergen system.

 

[43096]

Inergen fire suppression is not unique to HST’s. It is used extensively elsewhere in the world.

no need not to use the power car storage. Whatever the reasons it isn’t the inergen system.

Fully agreed.

I used to work in an office where the server room was Inergen protected. Didn’t stop people being sat outside.

 

[GrimShady]

Inergen fire suppression is not unique to HST’s. It is used extensively elsewhere in the world.

no need not to use the power car storage. Whatever the reasons it isn’t the inergen system.

Fully agreed.

I used to work in an office where the server room was Inergen protected. Didn’t stop people being sat outside.

Agreed. Whoever did the Risk Assessment has a head full on mince, assuming for course that's s the reason or possibly they just can't be bothered.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Looking at the press Scotfails's been rarely out of it for some reason or other this year. Wabtec cannot be blamed for the lack of Classic HSTs in service too. This franchise is terrible. I'm so glad my operator is not this one!! Meanwhile fellow Abellio franchise Greater Anglia is been in the news much recently not just regarding late new trains including the condition of its current trains.I travel through Leicester regularly and EMR's HST's seem to run well and close to time too. I cant remember last time I seen a failure. This is an Abellio franchise but in its early days.

 

[Highland37]

Of the planned diagrams yesterday, how many went according to plan?

 

[FQ]

Of the planned diagrams yesterday, how many went according to plan?

A quick look at RTT for each of the services shows that all ran either on time or with small delays en route (no more than 15 mins on any).

 

[43096]

I travel through Leicester regularly and EMR's HST's seem to run well and close to time too. I cant remember last time I seen a failure. This is an Abellio franchise but in its early days.

An Abellio franchise that retained almost all of the highly-regarded Stagecoach management team.

 

[haggishunter]

Off topic but the 158s splitting - a ScotRail unit did so not that long ago at Newcastle I recall.

in terms of teething troubles, 158s were split and made into hybrid units with half 156s for a time by ScotRail. I certainly remember the turbostars having a troubled start, given not doing much train travel on the Highland Mainline at the time recall three times being on 170s that gave up on it in fairly short space of time when they were being rolled out.

Maybe if the power cars are the bigger problem, Stadler can build new ones that contain enough power at one end so the other end can be a motorised driving trailer with no underfloor engines. Overtime the mk3 coaches can be replaced - modern solid state power systems should mean its not too difficult to switch between different train supply arrangements.

A genuine HST2 that the 80x was originally supposed to be!

 

[GrimShady]

in terms of teething troubles, 158s were split and made into hybrid units with half 156s for a time by ScotRail

That was due to the fact 158s had disc brakes and leave sludge building up. 156s has thread brakes so didn't have the same issue, it was also all over the RR network I think.

 

[Paul Kerr]

That's right Paul, one of those thing s showed up you never knew where you'd end up, certainly not where you were supposed too.

I'm utterly convinced the teething issues are down to the way stock is built these days. Gone are the days of building a prototype, learning lessons from its design and improving upon it for the production models. Now it's straight from CAD to production line, BR had the right idea with th 91s where batch one would be constructed and thoroughly tested and modifications built into batch two. In the Marine world if we're building a series of ships there's always the class leader, similar setup applies.

I think you're on to something there with the prototypes. When you're doing everything off a drawing board or CAD you can't think of everything. We actually find the same case in the chemical industry where I work; if you don't run a pilot scale system to prove the unit operation as happened with a new waste water treatment system we designed, the startup is very painful and takes many months. In other cases where we installed a pilot system, it made startup of the full-scale system much smoother...

In the case of ScotRail, a proof of concept Class 385 and HST set with all the mods done would have given the ScotRail crews the time to get to grips with all the quirks or "features" of the new and modified stock, and in the case of the HST it probably would have given Wabtec a more realistic view of the amount of work involved in refurbishing the Mk3s. Hindsight is 20-20 but hopefully lessons can be learned for future projects!

 

[47271]

I think you're on to something there with the prototypes. When you're doing everything off a drawing board or CAD you can't think of everything. We actually find the same case in the chemical industry where I work; if you don't run a pilot scale system to prove the unit operation as happened with a new waste water treatment system we designed, the startup is very painful and takes many months. In other cases where we installed a pilot system, it made startup of the full-scale system much smoother...

In the case of ScotRail, a proof of concept Class 385 and HST set with all the mods done would have given the ScotRail crews the time to get to grips with all the quirks or "features" of the new and modified stock, and in the case of the HST it probably would have given Wabtec a more realistic view of the amount of work involved in refurbishing the Mk3s. Hindsight is 20-20 but hopefully lessons can be learned for future projects!

Ah, CAD, that's where they're going wrong!

I'd assumed they were doing the mk3s with a cutting torch, wire brush, arc welder and a man with a fag dangling out of his mouth. Given that no two are the same why would CAD be any use to anyone?

Apparently this is one of the reasons why they had to abandon Nimrod ten or so years ago. They were trying to apply modern engineering standards to planes built on plywood jigs in the 1950s. In some cases there were eighteen inch differences between one airframe and another. Oh well.

 

[GrimShady]

Ah, CAD, that's where they're going wrong!

I'd assumed they were doing the mk3s with a cutting torch, wire brush, arc welder and a man with a fag dangling out of his mouth. Given that no two are the same why would CAD be any use to anyone?

Apparently this is one of the reasons why they had to abandon Nimrod ten or so years ago. They were trying to apply modern engineering standards to planes built on plywood jigs in the 1950s. In some cases there were eighteen inch differences between one airframe and another. Oh well.

CAD was in reference to teething issues new stock in general not the refurb HST.

 

[47271]

CAD was in reference to teething issues new stock in general not the refurb HST.

I know, as you may have gathered from the reference to man with the fag, I wasn't being entirely serious!

 

[GrimShady]

I know, as you may have gathered from the reference to man with the fag, I wasn't being entirely serious!

Just in case you got the wrong end of the stick

 

[asm0909]

Are some refurbs more unreliable than others, or are the issues evenly spread throughout the fleet?

 

[Speed43125]

Are some refurbs more unreliable than others, or are the issues evenly spread throughout the fleet?

I recall hearing the first couple of coaches were among the worst, no idea about power cars, but it would stand to reason if the first few had more issues as well.

 

[BRX]

Are some refurbs more unreliable than others, or are the issues evenly spread throughout the fleet?

I think we basically have no hard data about their actual unreliability whatsoever.

 

[Steven_G]

So, is the lack of refurbs out on track down to the carriages and not power car reliability?

And is there any data on unrefurb sets out. I never hear of them out on track now, just refurbs or 170/158

 

[Esker-pades]

I seen an article online recently about leaking deckheads on MK3 classics. In all the years I've been using ECML I've never encountered this, is this an issue that plagues the ex GWR fleet?

I'm sure I've seen elsewhere on this forum that it's to do with salt erosion (Dawlish Sea Wall).

 

[43096]

I recall hearing the first couple of coaches were among the worst, no idea about power cars, but it would stand to reason if the first few had more issues as well.

The power car programme at Brush basically covers bodywork repair/repaint including corrosion work and cab removal and overhaul. The traction/brake interlock is also fitted.

Other than that there is no mechanical and electrical work - power units aren’t overhauled, bogies aren’t overhauled (these are done separately as part of the ongoing heavy maintenance). The planned upgrade with new electronics was removed from the scope by ScotRail to save costs (but which will cost them in overhaul work in future).

 

[GrimShady]

I'm sure I've seen elsewhere on this forum that it's to do with salt erosion (Dawlish Sea Wall).

Most likely however one would have thought that this would have been taken care of during the life cycle of the vehicles. Sea water corrosion will have shown up many, many years ago.

 

[Esker-pades]

Most likely however one would have thought that this would have been taken care of during the life cycle of the vehicles. Sea water corrosion will have shown up many, many years ago.

It's been pointed out that First Group have precedent for running their fleets into the ground before handing the rolling stock back to the RoSCO.

 

[Highland37]

Hold on. On one hand you are saying that First Group are known to run their fleets into the ground, with reference to corrosion. But on the other hand, many are saying the corrosion Wabtec are dealing with is much greater than expected.... If a ROSCO is providing a fleet that is heavily corroded to the point that the refurb programme is years late, then something is very wrong (or the contract is a joke).

 

[GrimShady]

Hold on. On one hand you are saying that First Group are known to run their fleets into the ground, with reference to corrosion. But on the other hand, many are saying the corrosion Wabtec are dealing with is much greater than expected.... If a ROSCO is providing a fleet that is heavily corroded to the point that the refurb programme is years late, then something is very wrong (or the contract is a joke).

I would have expected the contract to a have a penalty clause for handing back ruined stock. Wabtec should have known what they were up against when costing the work IMO.

 

[Esker-pades]

Hold on. On one hand you are saying that First Group are known to run their fleets into the ground, with reference to corrosion. But on the other hand, many are saying the corrosion Wabtec are dealing with is much greater than expected.... If a ROSCO is providing a fleet that is heavily corroded to the point that the refurb programme is years late, then something is very wrong (or the contract is a joke).

Corrosion is just one aspect.
I do not claim to know what's going on; I am repeating this which have been said on this forum. I did make that clear originally, and, if that information is wrong, I'm very happy for it to be pointed out.

 

[Highland37]

A quick look at RTT for each of the services shows that all ran either on time or with small delays en route (no more than 15 mins on any).

Ah but this doesn't show, as far as I am aware, a situation where an HST (or any other type) has failed prior to the start of a service and is then replaced by a 170 or 158 before the scheduled departure time. This is what happened to my daughter last week.

I have just got a message from my other half saying she had to change train before the train departed Queen Street. On RTT it is shown as "

Pathed as Diesel locomotive, trailing load 324 tonnes
Planned for 100mph max"

so it will be interesting to see what turns up at Carrbridge when I see them.