Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[Goldromans]

Do we know if ScotRail plan on ever re-opening the buffets on the HST's? I know there are power supply problems, but is there any timescale for their return (if they ever do)?

 

[hexagon789]

Do we know if ScotRail plan on ever re-opening the buffets on the HST's? I know there are power supply problems, but is there any timescale for their return (if they ever do)?

When they have enough hospitality staff, that's all I've been told.

 

[Goldromans]

When they have enough hospitality staff, that's all I've been told.

At least that's a when and not if! Do we know if the new staff are being trained on the buffets right away or just trollies?

 

[hexagon789]

At least that's a when and not if! Do we know if the new staff are being trained on the buffets right away or just trollies?

That specific detail wasn't mentioned in the reply I was given, the rest simply said:

There is currently no timescale to resume the use of the Café-Bar buffet counters on our
HST sets.

 

[energol]

Anyone know what happened at the Meeting on Weds? Not heard a peep.

 

[fgwrich]

When they have enough hospitality staff, that's all I've been told.

I did notice on the ScotRail jobs website over the last few weeks that a few catering and hospitality positions have opened up. Hopefully a positive sign of things to come!

Until then, I’ll have to keep enjoying my I7C whisky at home

 

[Goldromans]

Any news on more sets being increased to 5 coaches, or are those coaches going to be left rotting away at Slateford for the foreseeable? I dread to think what condition all those Coach E's are in having sat there for so long now.

 

[Dan G]

Also did the number of daily diagrams stay at 15 or increase to 20, which I believe was a plan for the May timetable at one point?

 

[John Bishop]

Also did the number of daily diagrams stay at 15 or increase to 20, which I believe was a plan for the May timetable at one point?

I don’t think we will ever see 20 diagram, it’s just impossible to achieve on the fleet. There’s short forms and DMU subs pretty much daily these days covering for HST failures/ unavailability.

 

[kkong]

I don’t think we will ever see 20 diagram, it’s just impossible to achieve on the fleet. There’s short forms and DMU subs pretty much daily these days covering for HST failures/ unavailability.

I'm still waiting to hear some details of the failure reasons, any trends etc.

Do you have anything to share?

It's clear you don't like the HST, but some facts would help inform the discussion.

 

[John Bishop]

I'm still waiting to hear some details of the failure reasons, any trends etc.

Do you have anything to share?

It's clear you don't like the HST, but some facts would help inform the discussion.

Probably not without breaching a company policy. The facts are there to see on RTT on a daily basis. You can see the various short forms and subs in place of the booked HST set. The fact I don’t like HSTs is neither here nor there. I don’t like them because it causes the paying public no end of hassle and disruption on a daily basis. We need a more modern/reliable fleet on our Intercity network for the customers sake.

 

[hexagon789]

any trends

Intransigence

 

[BRX]

We need a more modern/reliable fleet on our Intercity network for the customers sake.

I think what some of us are interested in, but probably will never be able to know, is whether the main problem is really to do with the trains themselves or whether it's to do with inadequate supporting infrastructure, maintenance and so on.

As an outsider, it's certainly easy to get the impression that the whole project has been under-resourced and/or incompetently implemented, or even sabotaged...

 

[Flying Snail]

Maintaining these same HST fleets to a more than acceptable reliability standard was not a problem for the depots used by FGW, LNER, XC and EMT so the question needs asking why Scotrail depots are consistently failing to turn them out to anything close to an reasonable level.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Maintaining these same HST fleets to a more than acceptable reliability standard was not a problem for the depots used by FGW, LNER, XC and EMT so the question needs asking why Scotrail depots are consistently failing to turn them out to anything close to an reasonable level.

It’s simply experience, the fleets you mention were maintained at HST depots which have been looking after them since their introduction.

The Scottish HSTs are maintained at a depot which has never maintained them before.

 

[chuff chuff]

, it's certainly easy to get the impression that the whole project has been under-resourced and/or incompetently implemented, or even sabotaged...

As an insider I get the impression your not too far wrong.Ive had the feeling for a long time of a lack of will in regards to the implementation of the hst when it hit home the time,effort and loads of money required.
It seems like transport scotland thought you could just drop a type of traction into a network that hadn't used them for nigh on thirty years and every drop into place, then add on the age of the train and you can see what has happened.

 

[Killingworth]

Maintaining these same HST fleets to a more than acceptable reliability standard was not a problem for the depots used by FGW, LNER, XC and EMT so the question needs asking why Scotrail depots are consistently failing to turn them out to anything close to an reasonable level.

I see photographers eagerly capturing the CrossCountry HSTs running through South Yorkshire, seemingly reliably, every day as they take over 8 hours to run between Edinburgh and Plymouth. Perhaps that's part of the issue. They were designed to run at up to 125 mph on longer journeys. With XC they still do, and with 7 coaches.

It may be like Gordon in the Rev Awdry's Thomas the Tank Engine books . They don't like being put out to grass pottering along with only 4 coaches,stopping and starting at obscure stations on single tracks. Theyr'e sulking!

 

[kkong]

Probably not without breaching a company policy. The facts are there to see on RTT on a daily basis. You can see the various short forms and subs in place of the booked HST set. The fact I don’t like HSTs is neither here nor there. I don’t like them because it causes the paying public no end of hassle and disruption on a daily basis. We need a more modern/reliable fleet on our Intercity network for the customers sake.

That's not going to happen for several years - at least.

Hence why I am trying - without success - to get some real information on what the root cause(s) of the poor availability are.

RTT doesn't provide this information in any meaningful form.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Scottish HSTs are maintained at a depot which has never maintained them before.

It is a pity then that Craigentinny did not become the base for the Scotrail HSTs, with the 385 fleet being maintained at Haymarket instead (although the latter would have required some OLE installation of course).

 

[kkong]

It’s simply experience, the fleets you mention were maintained at HST depots which have been looking after them since their introduction.

The Scottish HSTs are maintained at a depot which has never maintained them before.

Would it not be reasonable to expect a level of experience in maintaining the fleet to have been obtained by now?

It is how many years since they've had their hands on them?

And I assume some familiarisation and training was taking place well before that, knowing that the fleet was coming?

 

[scotraildriver]

In my experience it's the coaches that continue to cause issues. Wabtec are still allegedly trying to come up with a solution to the ongoing inverter failure problem in the 1st class coach, which also means the catering areas can't be used. Door faults continue together with leaky roofs causing electrical issues. Ongoing corrosion repairs continue. There is currently an issue with shims on the coach bogies, I'm not sure of the details but it's a corrosion issue and affecting the whole fleet. Modifications are underway on the internal sliding doors after incidents of guards (and passengers)becoming trapped in a coach when the doors failed in the closed position. HA12 was the first set completed. Again a Wabtec issue as new door air systems were installed at refurbishment and don't work properly. As for the power cars I've had no trouble with them and they are in a much better condition than when they first arrived. Wheel turning continues to keep sets out of traffic as moving sets to Shields is a convoluted process requiring sets to be split. The wheel lathe is on the wrong side of the wrong city and can't accommodate a full set. An poor oversight by the bid team all those years ago. Hope this helps.

 

[kkong]

Thank you - finally some actual details!

I have noticed the internal sliding doors being locked open, which makes it noisy - particularly at the end of first class next to the power car!

 

[CC 72100]

Internal sliding doors seem to be an issue common across the GWR, XC and Scotrail fleets.

They were never tip top reliable in slam door days, but nowhere near as bad post works.

Indeed I recall some of the XC sets had them isolated not so long bag with a big sticker saying 'do not reinstate - warranty repairs' (or similar). Given how frequent the issues are, you can't help wondering if its poor design.

Has the ATP equipment been taken out the power cars now? If I recall correctly that was an issue in the early days?

(Thank you @scotraildriver for some of the insight, much appreciated)

 

[43096]

As for the power cars I've had no trouble with them and they are in a much better condition than when they first arrived. Wheel turning continues to keep sets out of traffic as moving sets to Shields is a convoluted process requiring sets to be split. The wheel lathe is on the wrong side of the wrong city and can't accommodate a full set. An poor oversight by the bid team all those years ago. Hope this helps.

Thanks for that.

It should be noted that improved wheelslip/wheelslide protection was part of the original project scope for when the power cars went through Loughborough. It was de-scoped, presumably for cost reasons. It is a false economy as it means wheelset life remains shorter and tyre turning is more frequent, even before the benefits in terms of safety and ride quality.

 

[chuff chuff]

As above I've had no problems with the power cars in service since the early days if the 'classic' sets.

 

[scotraildriver]

Internal sliding doors seem to be an issue common across the GWR, XC and Scotrail fleets.

They were never tip top reliable in slam door days, but nowhere near as bad post works.

Indeed I recall some of the XC sets had them isolated not so long bag with a big sticker saying 'do not reinstate - warranty repairs' (or similar). Given how frequent the issues are, you can't help wondering if its poor design.

Has the ATP equipment been taken out the power cars now? If I recall correctly that was an issue in the early days?

(Thank you @scotraildriver for some of the insight, much appreciated)

Yes the ATP equipment is long gone, so at least that's not a problem anymore.

 

[92002]

Although staff did transfer from Craigentinny to Haymarket.

Think the Power Cars supplied to ScotRail were the black sheep of the flock.

 

[kkong]

It should be noted that improved wheelslip/wheelslide protection was part of the original project scope for when the power cars went through Loughborough. It was de-scoped, presumably for cost reasons. It is a false economy as it means wheelset life remains shorter and tyre turning is more frequent, even before the benefits in terms of safety and ride quality.

WSP is being added, as per the 20 April 2023 ScotRail board minutes:

2.2 High-speed Train (HST) modifications: paper 2004-02

David Lister presented this paper, reminding the Board of its previous decision at the meeting on 23 March to approve the replacement the HST power car wheel slip protection (WSP) system and its request for a review of the additional opportunities to improve the HST fleet performance and availability including the cost and benefits of implementing double variable rate sanders (DVRS) on HSTs.

The Board noted that the long-expected timescales meant that no decision was required until after the initial group fleet strategy had been formulated and the Carmont Rolling Stock Steering Group recommendations were known in a few weeks’ time, and therefore concluded that those should be considered with the options presented.

The Board requested that ScotRail’s engineering team update the Board annually on its strategy plan.

The Board requested that the incoming non-executive director chairing ScotRail’s Safety, Health, and Environment Committee be briefed on matters relevant to the HST fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

WSP is being added, as per the 20 April 2023 ScotRail board minutes:

Improved WSP, they do have such a system but I'm not sure whether they are all the original Girling or if some use the later and better BR designed system (fitted to the WoE batch HSTs and Mk3Bs, plus the entire Irish Rail Mk3 fleet, from new.)

 

[Cloud Strife]

We need a more modern/reliable fleet on our Intercity network for the customers sake.

I still find it ridiculous that it was ever considered in the first place to have an HST fleet. Yes, the slightly higher linespeed and faster acceleration is there, and they might be nicer inside, but were the 170s really worse for Scotland's internal routes?