Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[route101]

I wonder of the HST project will ever get complete.

 

[Clansman]

If ever a photo summed up how the project has gone...

 

[CJSwan]

If ever a photo summed up how the project has gone...

Not helped that the headrests have a tendency to fall off whenever somebody nearby sneezes!

The fabric on the rest of the seats are already starting to look a bit worn and shabby, unless it’s just the lighting in this particular photo.

 

[hexagon789]

Weekend availability update, sets out:

Thurs 11th - 8/15
Fri 12th - 6/15, plus one failure part diagram at Perth
Sat 13th - 6/15
Sun 14th - 6/13
Mon 15th - 9/15, plus one failure part diagram and one failure on depot

Will update re today, the 16th, later today or early tomorrow.

Here's hoping the modest recovery to 9 out yesterday can be if not improved on at least maintained - fingers crossed!

 

[50002Superb]

Weekend availability update, sets out:

Thurs 11th - 8/15
Fri 12th - 6/15, plus one failure part diagram at Perth
Sat 13th - 6/15
Sun 14th - 6/13
Mon 15th - 9/15, plus one failure part diagram and one failure on depot

Will update re today, the 16th, later today or early tomorrow.

Here's hoping the modest recovery to 9 out yesterday can be if not improved on at least maintained - fingers crossed!

This is interesting to read / monitor.

Thanks for your efforts

 

[BRX]

Those availability numbers really are atrocious given the context that there are 25 sets in existence. Is there any fleet in the UK that's worse?

 

[Speed43125]

Those availability numbers really are atrocious given the context that there are 25 sets in existence. Is there any fleet in the UK that's worse?

See post #30.

 

[Christmas]

Those availability numbers really are atrocious given the context that there are 25 sets in existence. Is there any fleet in the UK that's worse?

I think that ScotRail needs to face the reality that the HST programme has been a total disaster and start to find a replacement pronto.
The main issue is the power cars. They keep failing, cost a fortune to maintain, lack of shore supply means that engines are kept running 24hrs a day. The fact that ScotRail opted for the cheapest 'bronze' maintenance package from MTU means that they are not allowed to shut both engines down as this will result in a cold start which is forbidden, speaks volumes about Transport Scotland and their cost cutting.
ScotRail needs get bi mode locomotives like the 69 and DVTs. Convert the mk3s or get some mk4s.
The HST cannot go on for another 6 years.

 

[hexagon789]

Availability update:

Tues 15th - 9/15
Wed 16th - 8/15, one set failure on depot

 

[HamworthyGoods]

ScotRail needs get bi mode locomotives like the 69 and DVTs. Convert the mk3s or get some mk3s.
The HST cannot go on for another 6 years.

Debatable if the mk3s can last another 6 years too.

If I were Scotrail I’d be looking very closely at the 222 fleet that will be going off lease.

It’s about time they gave up with their ill thought out and even more poorly executed HST plan.

 

[hexagon789]

The official line is they will be around until 2030, and replaced by a new bi-mode (electric/battery hybrid) fleet around then but not earlier.

 

[Christmas]

The official line is they will be around until 2030, and replaced by a new bi-mode (electric/battery hybrid) fleet around then but not earlier.

Transport Scotland has messed up with the execution of the HST in every way possible. They remove the guard's van and buffet to replace them with replacements that aren't fit for purpose. No wheelslip protection, sanders, despite this being recommended. The pathetic cycle provisions because they didn't want to use the sliding doors on the power cars.

One only has to look at the debacle with the 385 gangways and windscreen to see that they are incapable of ordering things that are practical and actually work.

And then there's the ferry fiasco, now to run on diesel indefinitely as the hybrid option has been shelved. The same will apply to the proposed electric, battery hybrid trains.

 

[Railperf]

Modern Railways reports plans are approved for replacement of the wheel slide protection and fitment of dual variable rate sanders on the HSTs...no word on timeline for that.

 

[43096]

Debatable if the mk3s can last another 6 years too.

If I were Scotrail I’d be looking very closely at the 222 fleet that will be going off lease.

It’s about time they gave up with their ill thought out and even more poorly executed HST plan.

As I keep saying - but the message clearly isn’t going in - the ScotRail HSTs are on a Section 54 agreement through to 2030. If ScotRail want to replace them sooner they’ll be paying for two fleets.

 

[hexagon789]

As I keep saying - but the message clearly isn’t going in - the ScotRail HSTs are on a Section 54 agreement through to 2030. If ScotRail want to replace them sooner they’ll be paying for two fleets.

Exactly, which is the main, but not only, reason that the official line is the HSTs are staying until then at the very least.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As I keep saying - but the message clearly isn’t going in - the ScotRail HSTs are on a Section 54 agreement through to 2030. If ScotRail want to replace them sooner they’ll be paying for two fleets.

Thank you, I understand train leasing there’s no need to be patronising.

You are quite correct they are on lease until 2030, but leases can and do get changed, sometimes with penalty, sometimes as part of a wider deal with that ROSCO. It’s not always as binary as you make out.

The Scottish HSTs are Angel Leased so are the TfW cl158s for example, if there’s no taker for those Angel may well do a deal to swap one fleet for another depending what is preferable for the ROSCO.

There can also be a wider deal involving multiple ROSCOs (which is what would be required in this case as 222s are Eversholt), but that is not impossible and can be done as part of a deal without massive penalties, case study the Angel Trains 442s are on paper on lease for another couple of years but will have spent the last few years of that lease as scrapped, instead replaced by Porterbrook 458s and no SWR are not leasing 2 fleets of trains… It is generally not in the ROSCOs interest to not work with the operators. In your binary view the 442s would HAVE to still be with SWR.

 

[Clansman]

One only has to look at the debacle with the 385 gangways and windscreen to see that they are incapable of ordering things that are practical and actually work.

Window issue aside, the 385 fleet is one of the (if not the) best performing MU fleets in the UK.

 

[43096]

There can also be a wider deal involving multiple ROSCOs (which is what would be required in this case as 222s are Eversholt), but that is not impossible and can be done as part of a deal without massive penalties, case study the Angel Trains 442s are on paper on lease for another couple of years but will have spent the last few years of that lease as scrapped, instead replaced by Porterbrook 458s and no SWR are not leasing 2 fleets of trains… It is generally not in the ROSCOs interest to not work with the operators. In your binary view the 442s would HAVE to still be with SWR.

The 442s are not still on lease to SWR - ownership transferred to SWR in March last year, then subsequently Gemini before scrapping. That ownership transfer was part of the deal done - Angel would not have made a loss on the deal. So ScotRail can send the HSTs off lease, but only by agreement with Angel. That is going to cost a substantial sum, whichever way you look at it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The 442s are not still on lease to SWR - ownership transferred to SWR in March last year, then subsequently Gemini before scrapping. That ownership transfer was part of the deal done - Angel would not have made a loss on the deal. So ScotRail can send the HSTs off lease, but only by agreement with Angel. That is going to cost a substantial sum, whichever way you look at it.

Replacing an expensive train needing 24 sets on lease to deliver 15 traffic diagrams by a cheaper train needing less spares to deliver the same number of traffic diagrams might well offset part of a lease termination fee. It’s often difficult to price this up as often done as part of a wider deal.

The point I was making was just because a train is on lease doesn’t mean things can’t change, time will tell what actually happens.

 

[hexagon789]

Window issue aside, the 385 fleet is one of the (if not the) best performing MU fleets in the UK.

Very much so, with an excellent 52,212 Miles per Technical Incident, which is slightly over 3 times better than the GB average and average availability of 97% - I think they have proved themselves.

Replacing an expensive train needing 24 sets on lease to deliver 15 traffic diagrams by a cheaper train needing less spares to deliver the same number of traffic diagrams

25 sets and the intention remains to increase diagrams from the Summer timetable next May.

 

[BRX]

Modern Railways reports plans are approved for replacement of the wheel slide protection and fitment of dual variable rate sanders on the HSTs...no word on timeline for that.

I hope they go ahead with that.

Most of the problems with the HSTs appear to be related to a badly thought through implementation.

The solution doesn't necessarily have to be to throw the baby out with the bathwater, surely.

 

[Ex-controller]

The introduction of the HST for ScotRail has to be the contender for the worst introduction of a train anywhere in the UK ever, with the exception of the APT I’d guess. Transport Scotland should be kept well away from the running of the railway if the utter incompetence and downright ignorance they’ve displayed throughout this project is anything to go by. The numerous occasions they’ve failed to listen to the well placed advice of ScotRail management, delivered in entirely good faith, not for the exact issue they were warned against to come to fruition, is cringeworthy. The only question is whether this behaviour is down to TS themselves and their interpretation of their brief from the Scottish Government, or if the government themselves have a direct hand.

This is before we get to the elephant in the room. As things stand, ASLEF in Scotland have stated that they will instruct drivers not to drive these machines after the third anniversary of Carmont. It seems a bit of a surprise to learn that a contract is being put to tender of WSP given that they are unlikely to be in service for another autumn period. It sounds like there may be some brinkmanship at play here - ScotRail really need to look into another fleet if they don’t want to end up with an emergency timetable next year. Another considerable expense in an already incredibly expensive failure. Next time ScotRail talk about passenger numbers and subsidies when responding to demands they reintroduce services, remember the money thrown at this.

 

[ld0595]

I can't help but be disappointed about the whole HST debacle here. I felt very optimistic when they were first announced in 2014 that they would transform the Intercity experience here in Scotland. It's a shame that the project hasn't lived up to expectations.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This is before we get to the elephant in the room. As things stand, ASLEF in Scotland have stated that they will instruct drivers not to drive these machines after the third anniversary of Carmont. It seems a bit of a surprise to learn that a contract is being put to tender of WSP given that they are unlikely to be in service for another autumn period. It sounds like there may be some brinkmanship at play here - ScotRail really need to look into another fleet if they don’t want to end up with an emergency timetable next year. Another considerable expense in an already incredibly expensive failure. Next time ScotRail talk about passenger numbers and subsidies when responding to demands they reintroduce services, remember the money thrown at this.

It appears Scotrail is not taking the ASLEF threat seriously. There are some mods which can be done to HSTs to make them safer, such as changes to the cab fitment and the big one is fitting bogie retention straps so they don’t go flying off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It appears Scotrail is not taking the ASLEF threat seriously. There are some mods which can be done to HSTs to make them safer, such as changes to the cab fitment and the big one is fitting bogie retention straps so they don’t go flying off.

Would that satisfy ASLEF?

I'm all for them being replaced, but the lead times of orders and testing process is such that even if they'd placed an order for something fairly standard like 802s the day after Carmont they'd likely not have had them in service within 3 years.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Would that satisfy ASLEF?

I'm all for them being replaced, but the lead times of orders and testing process is such that even if they'd placed an order for something fairly standard like 802s the day after Carmont they'd likely not have had them in service within 3 years.

Who knows, one presumes Scotrail has been having active discussions with ASLEF over the situation.

 

[43096]

The introduction of the HST for ScotRail has to be the contender for the worst introduction of a train anywhere in the UK ever, with the exception of the APT I’d guess.

Hyperbole alert! Has the SWR Class 701 debacle escaped your notice?

 

[cf111]

Debatable if the mk3s can last another 6 years too.

If I were Scotrail I’d be looking very closely at the 222 fleet that will be going off lease.

It’s about time they gave up with their ill thought out and even more poorly executed HST plan.

I'd kill for the 222 fleet, or even the 220s but I've no idea what their lease situation is like. I genuinely quite like the Voyagers in general, which isn't a popular opinion I know but they'd be great in Scotland.

The Scotrail HSTs are nice if you ever manage to actually get one, the problem has always been that you're probably going to get a 170 or a 158. I like the 170s, they are just too short and have limited luggage space. The 158s are not acceptable for the number of passengers but they are good units for the Kyle/Far North lines after their last refurbishment.

 

[Ex-controller]

I wonder what would be a cheaper move for ScotRail - pay for modifications to WSP, or hire in 10 class 170 or 158 units every autumn to cover for the inevitable shortages.

 

[Clansman]

I like the 170s, they are just too short and have limited luggage space.

And you want Voyagers or Meridians? A tad ironic!