Scotrail New Units Discussion

[First ScotRail]

Orginally discussed at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15563!

Aren't FSR seeking "new" DMUs to run the Galashiels trains, anyway?

And what happened to the TPE/FSR split pool rumours that were flying around a wee while ago, or were they just rumours?

Thats correct Transport Scotland are looking for new DMU's.
First will bid for the 180's but wont pay over the odds compared to some TOC's due to their poor reliablity.

 

[djw1981]

Aren't FSR seeking "new" DMUs to run the Galashiels trains, anyway?

And what happened to the TPE/FSR split pool rumours that were flying around a wee while ago, or were they just rumours?

The TS statement indicated that the cascade of DMU 170's from the Bathgate electrification combined with the Newcraighall units would be sufficient to serve the Borders Rail Link.

TS/FSR also want to strengthen services to Kilmarnock, and across the Shotts line (Caledonian express) as well as increasing capacity on Fife services.

Most of this will come about by electrification elsewhere and unit cascades, reading their 10 yr plan. i.e. 4car units for Ayrshire releasing 334 units for the Airdrie / Bathgate services; electrification or E&G va Falkirk allowing release of class 170 units to strengthen Fife, Aberdeen and Central Scotland Commuter journeys (including East kilbride & Kilmarnock).

 

[rail-britain]

The TS statement indicated that the cascade of DMU 170's from the Bathgate electrification combined with the Newcraighall units would be sufficient to serve the Borders Rail Link.

TS/FSR also want to strengthen services to Kilmarnock, and across the Shotts line (Caledonian express) as well as increasing capacity on Fife services.

Most of this will come about by electrification elsewhere and unit cascades, reading their 10 yr plan. i.e. 4car units for Ayrshire releasing 334 units for the Airdrie / Bathgate services; electrification or E&G va Falkirk allowing release of class 170 units to strengthen Fife, Aberdeen and Central Scotland Commuter journeys (including East kilbride & Kilmarnock).

The Kilmarnock services are to be strengthened to 4-car services throughout the day and 6-car services at peak periods
However, there are restrictions at some platforms which need to be addressed first, and this is also the same reason as to why Class 170s were not used on the route
The Class 158s currently "allocated" to the Edinburgh - Bathgate service will be cascaded to the Edinburgh - Dundee and Edinburgh - Shotts - Glasgow routes, releasing further Class 170s

Details for an EMU order are due by March 2008
It is expected that the order will be for 38 four car EMUs, for use exclusively on the Ayr Line and North Clyde routes (which will extend between Dalmuir, Airdrie, Bathgate, and Edinburgh)
This will release the Class 320 units, allowing the Class 314s to be returned to RoSCo

However, due to increased pressure on the Edinburgh - Glasgow routes, it has been suggested the EMUs may be the first in Scotland with First Class
There is also a proposal to build a new chord between the Cumbernauld line and Springburn (Queen Street Low Level) line, freeing up more paths for Glasgow - Falkirk services

 

[me123]

The TS statement indicated that the cascade of DMU 170's from the Bathgate electrification combined with the Newcraighall units would be sufficient to serve the Borders Rail Link.

Almost forgot about A-B; thanks.

TS/FSR also want to strengthen services to Kilmarnock, and across the Shotts line (Caledonian express) as well as increasing capacity on Fife services.

Are these not the displaced 170s/158s from Bathgate again?

The Kilmarnock services are to be strengthened to 4-car services throughout the day and 6-car services at peak periods
However, there are restrictions at some platforms which need to be addressed first, and this is also the same reason as to why Class 170s were not used on the route
The Class 158s currently "allocated" to the Edinburgh - Bathgate service will be cascaded to the Edinburgh - Dundee and Edinburgh - Shotts - Glasgow routes, releasing further Class 170s

As I thought. Although Kilmarnock's new to me. Could this even potentially mean 170s to Carlisle?

 

[djw1981]

I think it is more likely that there will be a cascade - 158/170 onto the Shotts line and those 156 cascaded to Kilmarnock.

 

[me123]

I think it is more likely that there will be a cascade - 158/170 onto the Shotts line and those 156 cascaded to Kilmarnock.

I think the long journey to Carlisle (and sometimes Newcastle) demands a train equipped like a 170, but I can see the capacity issues on the Shotts line.

 

[djw1981]

The thing is that line is usually only used in part (Stranraer to Newcastle is a different story) because GLC -NCL or Carlisle is quicker via Virgin/GNER. It is mainly used to Kilmarnock (commuting distance) or for day trips to Glasgow from south west Scotland and commuting from Dumfries into Carlisle. The ferry traffic mostly goes by coach to Glasgow now as the train doesn't meet every ferry, and with proposed moves to Cairnryan (back on hold for P&O at the moment) traffic could be reduced further.

The journey is of course extended by running from Stranraer via Ayr and Kilmarnock rather than via Ayr & paisley. However there are pathing issues fitting the 156 between the EMU's from Ayr-Paisley and Glasgow. this would also provide a through link from the Northern irish ferries to Prestwick (direct) or Glasgow (one change) airports.

 

[1D53]

I think the long journey to Carlisle (and sometimes Newcastle) demands a train equipped like a 170, but I can see the capacity issues on the Shotts line.

A 170 wouldn't make Newcastle however as the services are staffed by Northern between Newcastle and Carlisle and of course Northern crews do not sign them, and I can't see Northern taking crews off services to gain knowledge on traction they will rarely see for the benefit of Scotrail!

 

[me123]

A 170 wouldn't make Newcastle however as the services are staffed by Northern between Newcastle and Carlisle and of course Northern crews do not sign them, and I can't see Northern taking crews off services to gain knowledge on traction they will rarely see for the benefit of Scotrail!

Fair enough. I know I wouldn't want to train for a unit I'd only use once a month if I'm lucky.

 

[91101]

They could put 158's on the Newcastle's as both Carlisle and Newcastle crew sign them.

 

[First ScotRail]

They are banned to Stranraer I think?

 

[me123]

IIRC, they're not banned per se, but they haven't been cleared to run the route.

About the new EMUs, are they for A-B or Ayrshire? I've heard conflicting news for both sides. Either the new EMUS run A-B, or they replace 334s from Ayrshire lines, allowing said Junipers to run to Edinburgh.

 

[First ScotRail]

334's/318's for North Clyde electrics
new emu's on the ayrshire routes to combat overcrowding
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC, they're not banned per se, but they haven't been cleared to run the route.

I can confirm they are banned on the Carlisle, Stranraer routes.
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+158+Route+Clearance

 

[me123]

Ahh. My mistake. But they can be used ECS? (Should FSR decide to take a unit for a day out at the seaside )

 

[djw1981]

Ayrshire is probably getting 4 car units (ie 8 car at peak) with (as now) 318 on Inverclyde and the current 318/334 on Argyle line and 320/334 on the North Clyde (currentlky 320 do the Airdrie service, with 334 terminating Springburn mostly). After 2011 it is most likely 334 running through to Edinburgh. Which fleet will run the Edinburgh-Bathgate is not yet decided.

The above is a interpretive summary a (i.e. my reading of various websites, RUS , TS funding announcements etc) and may be slightly out in terms of fleet sizes. However, should TS not allow funding for 4car ayrshire services, the plan will be changed and A-B may get cascaded units from England - 321's have been mentioned.

 

[Jord]

I got a solution about these 180s. . . and that is. . .

Why don't FSR/ATW/HT fight for them?

Makes sense don't it?

 

[rail-britain]

Ayrshire is probably getting 4 car units (ie 8 car at peak) with (as now) 318 on Inverclyde and the current 318/334 on Argyle line and 320/334 on the North Clyde (currentlky 320 do the Airdrie service, with 334 terminating Springburn mostly). After 2011 it is most likely 334 running through to Edinburgh. Which fleet will run the Edinburgh-Bathgate is not yet decided

First priority is the replacement of the Class 314s
Their lease ends and TS have no plans to renew them
The plan here is for the Class 320s to transfer from North Clyde to the "Cathcart routes" only

New four car EMUs will be ordered for the Ayr Line, and GARL
It is expected the order will be for 24 units
The Class 318/334 shared pool will then operate all Argyle and North Clyde routes, and South Clyde (Gourock / Wemyss Bay) routes

Ordering four car EMUs make it easier for planning and RoSCo, although having three cars EMUs meant they remained in Scotland

 

[me123]

The plan here is for the Class 320s to transfer from North Clyde to the "Cathcart routes" only

Do you know if the current 314 services to Gourock and (I think) W. Bay will transfer to 320 operation?

 

[djw1981]

M8's answer would indicate not - Cathcart only i.e. not Inverclyde.

There are 16 314 sets and 22 320 sets, so some 320's would presumably remain on Argyle North Clyde services. If the 320's were not covering the current 314 diagrams to Inverclyde, then there are only ~12 units required per day, although additional units would allow strengthening in the peak.

 

[rail-britain]

The plan is for all the Class 320s to be used on the Cathcart routes
Class 318/334 will serve Gourock
The reason being that the Class 320s are only approved for 75 mph

 

[First ScotRail]

I got a solution about these 180s. . . and that is. . .

Why don't FSR/ATW/HT fight for them?

Makes sense don't it?

As mentioned alsewhere, they already have plans in place.