ScotRail - Possible future rolling stock plans?

[Northhighland]

I only hope somebody holds them to account for this as the rolling stock situation in the Highlands is abysmal and we'll put passengers off and indeed I know already does, my friend and his teenage daughter's frequently come South and have long since abandoned the train to the coach on the grounds of comfort and speed

Spot on post. We stopped using Scotrail over two years ago for business travel. Covid accelerated that. I used to travel every week or fortnight from Inverness to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Substitutions of 170’s for HST’s got the point I was sick to the back teeth of standing to Perth. Just drive or bus now.

I know a fair few that do that. Numbers must be way down.

 

[VioletEclipse]

With free bus travel for under 22s and train prices continuing to rise, Scotrail are going to have to step up their game quite a bit. I would say that encouraging people to use the train and making train travel as safe, convenient, accessible, frequent and reliable as possible is the main priority to encourage people to choose it over private transport or buses. Even so, the HST fleet (I love HSTs dearly as I know a lot of other forum members do) does need replacing, ideally with electric as much as possible (bi-mode, electrification of more lines, battery etc). The trains have done well over 40 years but their emissions and structural safety for example.

 

[Northhighland]

With free bus travel for under 22s and train prices continuing to rise, Scotrail are going to have to step up their game quite a bit. I would say that encouraging people to use the train and making train travel as safe, convenient, accessible, frequent and reliable as possible is the main priority to encourage people to choose it over private transport or buses. Even so, the HST fleet (I love HSTs dearly as I know a lot of other forum members do) does need replacing, ideally with electric as much as possible (bi-mode, electrification of more lines, battery etc). The trains have done well over 40 years but their emissions and structural safety for example.

HST will operate for a good few years yet. Just need to start operating the service they promised. Not really near that point yet. HST is a great product. Just needs to be there every day.

It is the uncertainty of if you will get a seat that pissed me off. At least with the bus you are guaranteed the seat you paid for.

 

[158747]

Even so, the HST fleet (I love HSTs dearly as I know a lot of other forum members do) does need replacing, ideally with electric as much as possible (bi-mode, electrification of more lines, battery etc). The trains have done well over 40 years but their emissions and structural safety for example.

Is there a problem with the structural safety of the HSTs?

 

[47827]

Is there a problem with the structural safety of the HSTs?

I would doubt there is or we'd have seen greater numbers of fatalities on the significant incidents in the last 20+ years. The landslide in summer 2020 was one of the worst incidents in modern times and the lockdown did save lives on that particular day (potentially more than from people in Scotland being shielded from the actual virus) but even then the damage to the train was more to do with the speed of impact and severity of what was hit than simply the fact it was a hst. Although no doubt there are some modern trains that may have had better outcomes, although that's debatable without real life testing in actual serious landslides. Worth noting too that the power cars were designed to shield some of the impact of a collision (although not much good for the driver who would rarely survive many of the incidents).

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Is there a problem with the structural safety of the HSTs?

They're 30-40 years old, built to a 50 year old design, heavily corroded and just generally worn out.

Can't help thinking that they're not the safest things around?

 

[Starmill]

The class 156 fleet is expected to be withdrawn first, beginning in around three years time. By then, the current 156 work to East Kilbride and Barrhead will have been replaced by EMUs, and the Maryhill line and Leven - Borders services by battery units. Stranraer is likely to require a bespoke hydrogen solution. The Northern work is formally ending in a couple of months in readiness for this. It's going to be a slow process, but they will get there. The 170 and 158 fleets will also be able to stretch to cover some of the work to enable the class 156 withdrawal.

 

[Wynd]

Disappointing if not a touch gratifying to see others thoughts align with my own.

HST rollout has been deeply lacking. 170s are awful and should have been long gone by now on intercity. And yet they are still there.

Then there is the free bus travel that will further undermine patronage.

As for the future, I suspect it will be a 385 derivative, but, they need to be drastically more comfortable for 2 and 3 hour journeys than the E&G.

 

[Stathern Jc]

As for the future, I suspect it will be a 385 derivative, but, they need to be drastically more comfortable for 2 and 3 hour journeys than the E&G.

Certainly hope that once the Highland Main Line is eventually electrified there will be stock suitable for long journeys, and with an acceptable standard of catering too.
I have a degree of apprehension as to what sort of EMUs will be decided is what we need. At least with no wires there's no risk of having Scotrail's central belt commuter stock substituting on long distance runs, or even worse cascaded onto them. That would just increase road traffic, and I couldn't exclude myself from that!

 

[DanNCL]

The Northern work is formally ending in a couple of months in readiness for this.

Final day of ScotRail units working on the Tyne Valley line (and also Northern units working to Dumfries) is 14th May.

 

[CEN60]

I have traveled to Inverness from the central belt regularly for the last 6 years & when it was announced that the HST's were to return I was looking forward to them as the 170s are just not up to the run. As a layman the initial delay was a disaster - but looked forward to the journey when the sets were all delivered - but the reality is somewhat different, they blow their trumpet about the HST's on teitter, but you turn up and end up on a cramped 170 substitution more often than not - the whole introduction has been laughable - the most annoying bit is that the refurbed units are very pleasant if you are lucky enough to get one, much more spacious than a 170 (or god forbid a 158). Sadly the limited number of units / maintenance requirements seemingly means its only ever going to be a piecemeal service / lottery HST service until new rolling stock is ordered. We all know that takes time. I would guess we are years / maybe 10 years away from the Highland Main line being electrified / part electrified - so what sort of service / rolling stock are we going to see over the next 5 years? From a layman's point of view I don't see how they improve it with a fixed pool of HST resources. (Sorry layman customer / passenger rant over!!!!)

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Even if the 170s always ran as 6-car formations, they’re still unsuitable for inter-city travel.

Those 2/3rds doors are not fun in the middle of winter.

That could have been solved by retrofitting internal vestibule doors. Or by using 158s.

Come to think of it, a dedicated 158 fleet with semi-permanent 4-6 car sets could have achieved everything the HSTs are supposed to, at a fraction of the price.

 

[supervc-10]

Come to think of it, a dedicated 158 fleet with semi-permanent 4-6 car sets could have achieved everything the HSTs are supposed to, at a fraction of the price.

Only if there were enough 158s around, which I don't think there are nationally. Maybe once TfW's units are made available not not any time soon when the HSTs were being planned!

 

[Clansman]

Come to think of it, a dedicated 158 fleet with semi-permanent 4-6 car sets could have achieved everything the HSTs are supposed to, at a fraction of the price.

It's quite an insanely bold thought when you think about it.

Imagine if they'd kept the 170s/158s that went off-lease. They'd have enough room to split up 12 x 158 sets to convert each coach into first class with shop counters and just shunt them on as a 3rd car to any 2 car set as they see fit at the start of each day.

 

[computerSaysNo]

It's quite an insanely bold thought when you think about it.

Imagine if they'd kept the 170s/158s that went off-lease. They'd have enough room to split up 12 x 158 sets to convert each coach into first class with shop counters and just shunt them on as a 3rd car to any 2 car set as they see fit at the start of each day.

The 159s or 400hp 158s would be perfect for the Highland Main Line, if only they were available.

 

[fgwrich]

That could have been solved by retrofitting internal vestibule doors. Or by using 158s.

Come to think of it, a dedicated 158 fleet with semi-permanent 4-6 car sets could have achieved everything the HSTs are supposed to, at a fraction of the price.

Of course it could, but IIRC I believe it was realised that the rather gutless 170s weren't up to providing enough power to do that plus plug sockets at every seat plus a better catering offering and still be able to keep to time.

Anyway, this is drifting back off the main topic. It's good to see the number of I7C sets in traffic increasing again. I will however be a little disappointed if the Buffet doesn't re-open, if anything for the rather beautiful I7C Whisky Glasses!

 

[MattRat]

Sadly the limited number of units / maintenance requirements seemingly means its only ever going to be a piecemeal service / lottery HST service until new rolling stock is ordered. We all know that takes time.

Well, there are more HSTs available in the form of the Castle sets, so actually you could replace them instead and cascade them to ScotRail, so they'd always have spare units. But then it comes down to which replacement is easier.

 

[Peter0124]

For the 318/320 replacement in 5 or so years time, I would be happy if its NOT open gangwayed stock. I like the internal doors (though automatic ones could do) as it keeps a sense of quietness whereas you would probably be able to hear crying babies or rowdy people 100 metres down the train without internal doors. Also please don't introduce longitudinal seating either

 

[gingertom]

The 159s or 400hp 158s would be perfect for the Highland Main Line, if only they were available.

Are the 400BHP-engined class 158s allowed to run at 100mph or do they just get to 90 a bit quicker and climb hills easier? Might be a moot point with TS specifying no underfloor engines for the IC routes.

Maybe the bi-mode locos on order with plans for some to be deployed on FGW's Night Riviera would be a good fit for the IC routes here hauling some MK5s. That could work, but we could debate whether we actually want Mk5s LHCS here.

 

[hexagon789]

Are the 400BHP-engined class 158s allowed to run at 100mph or do they just get to 90 a bit quicker and climb hills easier? Might be a moot point with TS specifying no underfloor engines for the IC routes.

90 max, and everything I've read about them from drivers suggests the 400hp variants accelerate more slowly than standard 158s but do hill climb better.

 

[D365]

But what's the point of battery when you need the same electricity to charge them as say the 385s?

Saves on increasingly expensive civils and pway.

 

[Pete_uk]

Two sensible options are loco+Mk5s or a 8xx derivative.

I don't know where enough 158 or other cascaded stock could come from, unless they would accept the 175s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two sensible options are loco+Mk5s or a 8xx derivative.

I don't know where enough 158 or other cascaded stock could come from, unless they would accept the 175s?

With progressive electrification 5 car 80x seem a very good bet, though it would be good if they could spec one coach to be low floor.