Scotrail rained off 25 Sept

[cadder toad]

Scotrail West Highland services North and West of Crianlarich don't appear to be running today. The rain or threat of rain didn't stop the Alcan tanks or the Sleeper, which arrived early. Real-time trains doesn't show the Fort William services as cancelled. They're not shown at all

 

[irp]

With what might be incoming, weather wise, I can see why, esp with the extra caution being shown post Carmont. I also wonder if this is related to avoiding having rolling stock out of position, if the incoming weather causes disruption. Sleeper would have arrived well before any inclement weather.

 

[DelW]

Scotrail West Highland services North and West of Crianlarich don't appear to be running today. The rain or threat of rain didn't stop the Alcan tanks or the Sleeper, which arrived early. Real-time trains doesn't show the Fort William services as cancelled. They're not shown at all

Just to avoid possible confusion, you seem to be referring to the 25th (Monday) not 23rd as in the thread title.

 

[John Bishop]

With what might be incoming, weather wise, I can see why, esp with the extra caution being shown post Carmont. I also wonder if this is related to avoiding having rolling stock out of position, if the incoming weather causes disruption. Sleeper would have arrived well before any inclement weather.

And what’s exactly is incoming? I’m looking at the rainfall radar right now and there’s only a very minimal scattering of showers across the extreme western mainland. Nothing to stop the service today.

 

[irp]

And what’s exactly is incoming? I’m looking at the rainfall radar right now and there’s only a very minimal scattering of showers across the extreme western mainland. Nothing to stop the service today.

That'll teach me to watch the weather forecast and not realise they were talking about Wednesday, not today! Obv need more sleep, but there was a Grand Prix on at 0600 yesterday - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

Sorry for the noise!

 

[cadder toad]

Just to avoid possible confusion, you seem to be referring to the 25th (Monday) not 23rd as in the thread title.

Thanks, title now amended. Storm Agnes is forecast for Wednesday evening. Trains are moving again this evening. The sleeper and the evening trains to/from Fort William are shown on real-time trains

 

[30907]

Out of interest, what was the actual reason for all the cancellations?

 

[hexagon789]

Out of interest, what was the actual reason for all the cancellations?

Speed restrictions due to weather was the reason given on Journeycheck.

 

[Deepgreen]

Speed restrictions due to weather was the reason given on Journeycheck.

Good grief - so a vital transport link to remote areas is effectively severed just because there might be heavy rain (but horizontal passengers and freight can take their chances!)? Where will this risk-aversion end? Was the road also closed because of possible bad weather and landslides? I despair.

 

[hexagon789]

Good grief - so a vital transport link to remote areas is effectively severed just because there might be heavy rain (but horizontal passengers and freight can take their chances!)? Where will this risk-aversion end? Was the road also closed because of possible bad weather and landslides? I despair.

This has been the case since Carmont, any forecasted heavy rain and blanket speed restrictions go in on certain routes. Though there were lines that applied to even before the fallout from the Carmont accident.

 

[68000]

Good grief - so a vital transport link to remote areas is effectively severed just because there might be heavy rain (but horizontal passengers and freight can take their chances!)? Where will this risk-aversion end? Was the road also closed because of possible bad weather and landslides? I despair.

This is the aftermath of the gross over-reation to Carmont and the retrospective application of rules ie NR should have slowed the train travelling back to Aberdeen right down therefore they pled guilty to knowingly letting the train hit an obstruction

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Good grief - so a vital transport link to remote areas is effectively severed just because there might be heavy rain (but horizontal passengers and freight can take their chances!)? Where will this risk-aversion end? Was the road also closed because of possible bad weather and landslides? I despair.

The implications of the BESRs are not so severe for the horizontal passengers and the freight.
For example: the numerous speed restrictions would have added 2+ hrs EACH WAY to a Driver driving from Mallaig to Crianlarich and back.
Naturally that isn't sustainable for the continuous Driving hours, not the concentration required from Traincrew.

 

[al78]

I'm a little surprised at this because there wasn't much rain forecast from Agnes, the weather impacts were expected to be from wind. Surely any disruption to transport was due to the anticipation of potentially damaging winds?

 

[Unstoppable]

The railway really need to get a grip with these BESR. Carmont was a terrible accident but this is the risk that is taken when you run an operational railway. Deal with it and move on with other safety measures or hang your keys up. The public need to get from A - B. This is totally embarrassing for those who rely on the system as a vital lifeline or to get to work.

 

[cadder toad]

Storm Agnes was Wednesday/Thursday. The trains I'm referring to didn't run on Monday 25th. This was a local holiday in Glasgow and the West Highland trains might have been expected to be busier that day. I checked on Realtime Trains and the northbound sleeper took 4-3/4 hours Glq-Ftw on the morning of the 25th, normally it would be 4 hours. (The Scotrail DMUs take about 3.5 hours.) The southbound Alcan freight on the 25th took 7 hours to reach Glasgow and its normally 6. So the sleeper and the freight trains ran slower but not significantly so, more or less within the normal margins of late running.

 

[Clansman]

I'm a little surprised at this because there wasn't much rain forecast from Agnes, the weather impacts were expected to be from wind. Surely any disruption to transport was due to the anticipation of potentially damaging winds?

I imagine the threat was higher in the west of Scotland that evening, but I was on the last Aberdeen from Stirling all the way up, and we were 40mph from Montrose (arriving at 01:30) in the end, so precautions were taken all over regardless.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Storm Agnes was Wednesday/Thursday. The trains I'm referring to didn't run on Monday 25th. This was a local holiday in Glasgow and the West Highland trains might have been expected to be busier that day. I checked on Realtime Trains and the northbound sleeper took 4-3/4 hours Glq-Ftw on the morning of the 25th, normally it would be 4 hours. (The Scotrail DMUs take about 3.5 hours.) The southbound Alcan freight on the 25th took 7 hours to reach Glasgow and its normally 6. So the sleeper and the freight trains ran slower but not significantly so, more or less within the normal margins of late running.

You mention that the services to/from FW lost an hour. The entire Mallaig extension was also under one restriction, which these services wouldn't have to cover so the prediction of 2hrs each way additional running isn't too far of the mark.

The railway really need to get a grip with these BESR. Carmont was a terrible accident but this is the risk that is taken when you run an operational railway. Deal with it and move on with other safety measures or hang your keys up. The public need to get from A - B. This is totally embarrassing for those who rely on the system as a vital lifeline or to get to work.

You put your name to the risk assessment and we'll see how we get on.
What "other safety measures" do you suggest?

These BESRs are orchestrated by NR, not Scotrail.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The railway really need to get a grip with these BESR. Carmont was a terrible accident but this is the risk that is taken when you run an operational railway. Deal with it and move on with other safety measures or hang your keys up. The public need to get from A - B. This is totally embarrassing for those who rely on the system as a vital lifeline or to get to work.

It is not really the railway that is the problem.

It is the more frequent effects of heavy rain and the risk averse culture that the Western world is sleep walking into.

Can you imagine the H&S bods on the Normandy beeches !. As for Ukraine - they are doing our dirty work for us. Meanwhile we have become accustomed to safety - rightly or wrongly.

 

[josh-j]

I mean, it should go without saying that if we were in the blitz and the train was a key means of escape, transport or whatever then the risk assessment would come out differently.

But with a fatal accident having just happened and no enemy bombers on the air right now I'm not sure I'd make the decision differently if it was my call!

All respect to the Ukrainians of course but its a bit of a different situation. I think really the proper outcome would be to increase funding for preventative surveying and maintenance across the railway so that there's no need to worry about things collapsing onto the tracks.

 

[Unstoppable]

You mention that the services to/from FW lost an hour. The entire Mallaig extension was also under one restriction, which these services wouldn't have to cover so the prediction of 2hrs each way additional running isn't too far of the mark.



You put your name to the risk assessment and we'll see how we get on.
What "other safety measures" do you suggest?

These BESRs are orchestrated by NR, not Scotrail.

I wouldn't work in the railway. I'm not work shy and believe in doing a days graft. It's the passengers I feel for but it seems most staff appear to think the railway is run for their own gain

 

[jagardner1984]

One wonders with climate change ever present, some form of braking system which achieves better performance may be an area of focus for future rolling stock, since presumably flood conditions, or at very least torrential rain, will become more likely in our climate as time goes on.

 

[Morayshire]

Storm Agnes was Wednesday/Thursday. The trains I'm referring to didn't run on Monday 25th. This was a local holiday in Glasgow and the West Highland trains might have been expected to be busier that day. I checked on Realtime Trains and the northbound sleeper took 4-3/4 hours Glq-Ftw on the morning of the 25th, normally it would be 4 hours. (The Scotrail DMUs take about 3.5 hours.) The southbound Alcan freight on the 25th took 7 hours to reach Glasgow and its normally 6. So the sleeper and the freight trains ran slower but not significantly so, more or less within the normal margins of late running.

Would no trains on Monday 23rd not have more to do with the line being shut between Dalmuir and Yoker for engineering works for 4 days from Friday 22nd?

Network Rail Press Release - Dalmuir to Yoker closure

Network Rail is investing more than £1m to replace ageing track on the line between Dalmuir and Yoker.

The work, which will begin on Friday, September 22, will include: Upgrading the track through the 127-year-old Dalmuir Twin Tunnels, which carry the railway underneath the Forth & Clyde Canal. Renewal of switches and crossings, which allow trains to move from one rail line to another, to the east of Dalmuir station. Installation of new brackets to support the rails on Platform 5 at Dalmuir station. The line between Dalmuir and Yoker will be closed between Friday, September 22, and Monday, September 25. Train services will resume on Tuesday, September 26. During the work, ScotRail will divert some services via Singer and Anniesland while a replacement bus service will be in place between Dalmuir and Partick, via Yoker and Garscadden.

As for Wednesday 25th, given that the West Highland lines have a history of landslides and other rain related events, I would be suprised if they didn't put speed restrictions or cancellations in place.

For example Loch Treig landslide which resulted in a derailment with the Class 66 involved being cut up in situ.

Or Loch Eilt on the way to Mallaig in 2018 where the train ran into the landslide debris.

Or Pass of Brander/Loch Awe on the Oban line. One in December 2022 which closed both the railway and the A85 or the one in 2010 where the train ran into the landslide.

Probably a few others as well but those are the ones which stick out in my memory. I also seem to recall an increasing mention of closures to allow track reinstatement following drainage washouts over the last year or so.

A lot of work was and is being done to deal with the geotech and drainage problems not only on the West Highland but elsewhere. Problem is, the infrastructure is getting older and failing more often, costs are rising for a wide range of reasons (Ukraine is only one of them) and we keep getting rainfall events which trigger failures.

The earthworks report commisioned after Carmont by Network Rail is worth a read if you want more info.

 

[Bill57p9]

What I find disappointing here is ScotRail completely throwing in the towel on WHL as a response to NR imposing a (weather related) BESR - note not a closure. GBRf, CS and I believe WCRC all managed to deliver a service, albeit slow.

Given the history of the line being subject to landslides - both recently and historically as evidenced by Anderson's Piano - if you were running a business on it, would you not have a contingency plan in place to allow some form of service to be delivered in the rather foreseeable event of a BESR?

One wonders with climate change ever present, some form of braking system which achieves better performance may be an area of focus for future rolling stock, since presumably flood conditions, or at very least torrential rain, will become more likely in our climate as time goes on.

I have no idea on the details or how it might work on the main line, however I do believe modern trams have some sort of emergency brake which drops a magnet onto the track (obviously whilst still connected to the stock in some way!)

 

[Bluejays]

I wouldn't work in the railway. I'm not work shy and believe in doing a days graft. It's the passengers I feel for but it seems most staff appear to think the railway is run for their own gain

Very true. It's great the railway. Spring out of bed at 2:45 am, knowing that the next 10 hours are going to involve no work whatsoever, no responsibility, no potential conflict, no concentration or adhering to rules and procedures. Surprised more people haven't realised how much of a doss it is to be honest.

It is not really the railway that is the problem.

It is the more frequent effects of heavy rain and the risk averse culture that the Western world is sleep walking into.

Can you imagine the H&S bods on the Normandy beeches !. As for Ukraine - they are doing our dirty work for us. Meanwhile we have become accustomed to safety - rightly or wrongly.

Can't really imagine the h&s bods on the Normandy beaches. Doesn't really seem like the right time and place for them .

A scenario where h&s could be useful though, would maybe be where infrastructure has shown to be not up to standard at dealing with heavy rain. Maybe some kind of speed restriction could be useful until the infrastructure is brought up to standard.

More sensible and informed posters than myself seem to be suggesting that the issue is ScotRail just giving up/not trying to workaround, rather than the restrictions themselves.

 

[3RDGEN]

You mention that the services to/from FW lost an hour. The entire Mallaig extension was also under one restriction, which these services wouldn't have to cover so the prediction of 2hrs each way additional running isn't too far of the mark.

On the 25th the FW - Mallaig services ran a normal timetable, the early 08:15 out and back service lost 20 minutes each way, the 12:13 service lost 10 minutes same one it's return so not a massive problem.

What I find disappointing here is ScotRail completely throwing in the towel on WHL as a response to NR imposing a (weather related) BESR - note not a closure. GBRf, CS and I believe WCRC all managed to deliver a service, albeit slow.

Issue is ScotRail (and TOC's in general) gets its subsidy paid if the trains run or not, if GBRf & WCRC don't run they don't get paid. How are you going to get freight off the roads to rail if you shutdown on a regular basis for bad weather?

Does anyone know what Citylink did with their Glasgow - FW - Skye coach service?

 

[Newtraveller58]

This brings us back to the issue that the railway companies can only take into account the risk to passengers while on the railway. This only works if you assume that the passengers will stay at home if there are no trains. In fact they will probably travel by road in either a private car or possibly a bus where they will be subject to potentially much higher risk (Visibility, aquaplaning, driver incompetence etc). The industry (probably led by the ORR) needs to find a way to consider societal risk (or the government needs to shut down roads on the same basis in bad weather as too high risk!) None of that’s ever happen of course but that’s where we were 50 years ago when I joined the industry.

 

[al78]

This brings us back to the issue that the railway companies can only take into account the risk to passengers while on the railway. This only works if you assume that the passengers will stay at home if there are no trains. In fact they will probably travel by road in either a private car or possibly a bus where they will be subject to potentially much higher risk (Visibility, aquaplaning, driver incompetence etc).

Maybe, but that is the individual's choice to take that risk and the railway is not liable for deaths and injuries on the roads even if extra road journeys are made in poor weather because of disruption on the railway. Road accidents due to aquaplaning, poor visibilty and incompetance are the fault of the drivers, these things wouldn't happen when driving in a manner according to the conditions. Driving standards can be poor even in benign weather as any long journey on the motorway network will illustrate..

 

[FtoE]

When you brand (demote) lines as ‘Great Scenic Rail Journeys’ you can simply treat them as tourist novelties.

 

[Newtraveller58]

Maybe, but that is the individual's choice to take that risk and the railway is not liable for deaths and injuries on the roads even if extra road journeys are made in poor weather because of disruption on the railway. Road accidents due to aquaplaning, poor visibilty and incompetance are the fault of the drivers, these things wouldn't happen when driving in a manner according to the conditions. Driving standards can be poor even in benign weather as any long journey on the motorway network will illustrate..

But is the railway encouraging people to travel on roads on which other drivers are driving unsafely. The Railway is not liable for deaths on roads but if one of the selling points of rail travel is that it is safe, it should not be “forcing” people on to less safe modes of transport. I would contend that the risk of a Carmont type incident is much lower than the risk of a road accident even on a very wet day.

 

[Llanigraham]

This brings us back to the issue that the railway companies can only take into account the risk to passengers while on the railway. This only works if you assume that the passengers will stay at home if there are no trains. In fact they will probably travel by road in either a private car or possibly a bus where they will be subject to potentially much higher risk (Visibility, aquaplaning, driver incompetence etc). The industry (probably led by the ORR) needs to find a way to consider societal risk (or the government needs to shut down roads on the same basis in bad weather as too high risk!) None of that’s ever happen of course but that’s where we were 50 years ago when I joined the industry.

Err, yes it does!
How many times are high level bridges closed to either all traffic or just certain types, when there are storms, or some roads closed due to possible flooding?
Even this week both have occured.