Scotrail to remove Peak Fares - six month pilot

[ScotsRail]

Just announced by the new First Minister in Parliament - there will be a 6 month pilot of no peak fares on Scotrail trains from October.

In a list of pledges he says the government will continue to close the poverty releated attainment gap.

"We'll also make our public transport system more accessible, the six month pilot to remove peak time fares from ScotRail will start in October of this year."

Interesting.

 

[hexagon789]

Just announced by the new First Minister in Parliament - there will be a 6 month pilot of no peak fares on Scotrail trains from October.

In a list of pledges he says the government will continue to close the poverty releated attainment gap.

"We'll also make our public transport system more accessible, the six month pilot to remove peak time fares from ScotRail will start in October of this year."

Interesting.

Was announced on the forum some months earlier; the Scottish government kept chopping and changing the extent of coverage among other details: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scottish-government-removal-of-peak-fares-pilot.240817/

 

[Gaelan]

I'm curious what this means in practice, as my local train into Edinburgh (from Leuchars) has no less than four kinds of returns with varying time restrictions (not even counting the LNER-only fares!): a £29* anytime, a £23 "off-peak" with only a morning peak, a £19 "off-peak day" with both a morning and an evening peak, and a £15 "super off-peak" with large morning and evening peaks. The only single is an anytime.

So are they going to just drop the £29 fare, making the £23 (effectively) an anytime and keep the more restrictive off-peak tickets? Or are they going to make the £15 effectively an anytime? And what about the single—will they keep it as is (it's not, strictly speaking, a peak fare, as there's no off-peak single) or reduce it to half the new anytime?

Or are messes like this why they previously said they were only doing the pilot on some routes?

*non-railcard prices, rounded to the nearest pound, throughout

 

[scotrail158713]

I'm curious what this means in practice, as my local train into Edinburgh (from Leuchars) has no less than four kinds of returns with varying time restrictions (not even counting the LNER-only fares!): a £29* anytime, a £23 "off-peak" with only a morning peak, a £19 "off-peak day" with both a morning and an evening peak, and a £15 "super off-peak" with large morning and evening peaks. The only single is an anytime.

So are they going to just drop the £29 fare, making the £23 (effectively) an anytime and keep the more restrictive off-peak tickets? Or are they going to make the £15 effectively an anytime? And what about the single—will they keep it as is (it's not, strictly speaking, a peak fare, as there's no off-peak single) or reduce it to half the new anytime?

Or are messes like this why they previously said they were only doing the pilot on some routes?

*non-railcard prices, rounded to the nearest pound, throughout

Yep. I remember thinking this when the scheme was first announced. It has potential to work well - but also potential to go catastrophically badly and result in nothing other than increased prices for many. The journey you quote is a good example where it will be useful to know which fares exactly will change.

I'll hold back my own judgement of it until more details are announced.

 

[Gaelan]

Or are messes like this why they previously said they were only doing the pilot on some routes?

For what it’s worth, I just got a bit of paper through my door from the Greens, who specifically claim they’re getting rid of peak fares in Fife. So we’ll see what they do!

 

[EMU303]

Peak fares removal pilot dates confirmed | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

As an example Glasgow to Edinburgh peak will reduce from £28.90 to £14.90

 

[realemil]

ScotRail has announced this on Twitter now - https://x.com/ScotRail/status/1701914841810682289?s=20

You’ll be able to use Off-Peak tickets all day, every day from 2 October as part of a 6-month trial. What does this mean

No peak restrictions
Kids for a Quid tickets is available all day

Our app and website will show the new fares from 18 September.

Find out more ⬇️

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have abolished Super Off Peak as part of this, so some people will pay more. Curiously they are doing it by both derestricting Off Peaks and reducing Anytimes, so both will be available at the same price, and are not derestricting Railcards - they claim they can't, but Virgin did in the past. Fares not set by ScotRail remain as they are.

Full FAQ here, not easy to quote as it is in collapsible sections so I'll just link:

Off-Peak fares all day long

Last updated: 20 December 2023 Going by train is on with Off-Peak fares all day, every day until 28 June 2024. The trial, which is funded by the Scottish Government and launched on 2 October 2023, aims to make public transport more accessible and affordable, and encourage people to ditch the car...

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[Gaelan]

They have abolished Super Off Peak as part of this, so some people will pay more.

Notably the ScotRail Super Off Peaks were only available on mTickets and smartcards - so obviously this is a cost increase, but only for the (small, I would guess) subset of passengers who were aware of them and able to use them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Curiously they are doing it by both derestricting Off Peaks and reducing Anytimes, so both will be available at the same price

So presumably for many journeys you will effectively be able to choose which of two different names will be printed on an otherwise identical ticket?

I don't understand why they wouldn't just reduce the Anytime fares to the Off Peak price and withdraw the Off Peak fare entirely. It really does seem to be quintessential British rail industry: the stated aim is simplification, so we'll find the most complicated way to go about simplifying things.

 

[realemil]

I don't understand why they wouldn't just reduce the Anytime fares to the Off Peak price and withdraw the Off Peak fare entirely. It really does seem to be quintessential British rail industry: the stated aim is simplification, so we'll find the most complicated way to go about simplifying things.

Most likely due to contracting, legal requirements, as this is a trial - it might be a lot of work to remove it all then add it back afterwards, so forth

 

[kkong]

Notably the ScotRail Super Off Peaks were only available on mTickets and smartcards - so obviously this is a cost increase, but only for the (small, I would guess) subset of passengers who were aware of them and able to use them.

I used the Super Off-Peak regularly on smartcard for a particular local journey, but the price increase - especially with the 20% Club 50 discount - will be so small that I'm more than willing to accept it for the greater good of the removal of peak time restrictions.

 

[Haywain]

I don't understand why they wouldn't just reduce the Anytime fares to the Off Peak price and withdraw the Off Peak fare entirely.

I guess because it's a 6 month long trial, and they can later return the fares to the original level if they choose. Although it is worth bearing in mind that there are some discounts which vary in level according to the ticket type, so that is also a reason for keeping both.

 

[kkong]

Although it is worth bearing in mind that there are some discounts which vary in level according to the ticket type, so that is also a reason for keeping both.

Indeed - Club 50 for example gives a 20% discount on Off-Peak tickets but no discount on Anytime tickets.

 

[Wynd]

Notable that the BBC have chosen to frame this as a gamble, when it could be equally described as an investment aimed at making railways finances more sustainable in the long term. Disspointing, to say the least.


Welcome news in my book. The sooner we move towards a flat fare, long train structure, the better.

This pricing high to drive demand lower model is the antithesis of what running a railway should be.

High volume, low margin, transport a lot of stuff, or people, regularly and efficiently.

 

[infobleep]

Wasn't the whole point of differential pricing to try to help spread the load out across the day?

I do welcome the trail though.

This will introduce more split ticketing opportunities I imagine, which can then be exploited using the forums Ticketing Site

For example, combining Scotrail-priced tickets with those priced by LNER. There might also be other opportunities for starting short on Scotrail-priced tickets that otherwise would be priced by Avanti, if you used the station you are actuallt starting from.

 

[jon81uk]

Wasn't the whole point of differential pricing to try to help spread the load out across the day?

I would assume Scotland doesn't have the same issue as London/Birmingham/Manchester of commuter loads at 8am and 6pm.

 

[Haywain]

Notable that the BBC have chosen to frame this as a gamble, when it could be equally described as an investment aimed at making railways finances more sustainable in the long term.

I don't see any reason to be disappointed as there's really no difference. An investment that doesn't work will always be regarded as a gamble and a winning gamble is regarded as a good investment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would assume Scotland doesn't have the same issue as London/Birmingham/Manchester of commuter loads at 8am and 6pm.

I suspect peak fares make relatively little difference to this because nobody in their right mind travels at times when you have to stand with your head in someone's armpit unless they have to. As things are they just get whacked twice - an uncomfortable journey and a hefty fare.

But in answer to your question, yes, Scotland does have big peak flows into both Glasgow and Edinburgh. The routes which don't (the very rural ones like the Far North) don't have off peak fares anyway, or have pointlessly small differences, e.g. £46.50 Anytime and £41.40 Off Peak Return Kyle-Inverness which are so close in price that they might as well be merged into one fare anyway at whatever the revenue neutral combination would be (probably closer to the latter than the former as the latter is not heavily restricted).

Wales is similar - rural routes e.g. the Conwy Valley don't have Off Peak fares, just Anytime. Some routes have unrestricted 8A/3A Off Peaks which exist for historical reasons but may as well be changed to Anytimes. (These bar break of journey, but in places like Wales where gatelines are a rarity this is basically meaningless).

 

[jon81uk]

I suspect peak fares make relatively little difference to this because nobody in their right mind travels at times when you have to stand with your head in someone's armpit unless they have to. As things are they just get whacked twice - an uncomfortable journey and a hefty fare.

But in answer to your question, yes, Scotland does have big peak flows into both Glasgow and Edinburgh. The routes which don't (the very rural ones like the Far North) don't have off peak fares anyway, or have pointlessly small differences, e.g. £46.50 Anytime and £41.40 Off Peak Return Kyle-Inverness which are so close in price that they might as well be merged into one fare anyway at whatever the revenue neutral combination would be (probably closer to the latter than the former as the latter is not heavily restricted).

Wales is similar - rural routes e.g. the Conwy Valley don't have Off Peak fares, just Anytime. Some routes have unrestricted 8A/3A Off Peaks which exist for historical reasons but may as well be changed to Anytimes. (These bar break of journey, but in places like Wales where gatelines are a rarity this is basically meaningless).

Thanks for this reply, so potentially those commuters into Glasgow/edinburgh might save a little with this change, but overall it probably won't have much effect on the overall network, except maybe to encourage some travel from people who did assume it is signifcantly expensive in the peak .

 

[kkong]

Thanks for this reply, so potentially those commuters into Glasgow/edinburgh might save a little with this change, but overall it probably won't have much effect on the overall network, except maybe to encourage some travel from people who did assume it is signifcantly expensive in the peak .

It should increase early morning demand from the main cities, which typically have off-peak fares which are not valid for departure until 09:30.

There are also off-peak restrictions leaving Edinburgh between around 16:30 and 18:15, so people will be able to travel in this period rather than waiting until later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for this reply, so potentially those commuters into Glasgow/edinburgh might save a little with this change, but overall it probably won't have much effect on the overall network, except maybe to encourage some travel from people who did assume it is signifcantly expensive in the peak .

Indeed.

Certainly the cost of doing this in Scotland would be much lower than the cost of doing it in the South East of England.

The differences in the North and West are more like Scotland, though, recognising the lower peak flows, and so something like Northern and TPE doing it may well be feasible. Massively inflated peak fares are a "one end of the journey in London" thing, though some do exist in the North e.g. into Manchester, where e.g. from Preston to Manchester an Anytime Day Return is roughly twice an Off Peak Day Return - but even that isn't quite as high as the rather ludicrous multiplier from Manchester to London.

 

[jagardner1984]

Scotland, well Glasgow in particular, is in the position where with a peak GLQ-EDB ticket costing £28 - and fairly plentiful parking, park and ride and street parking, it is genuinely cheaper for a lot of people to use the car rather than use the train, resulting in gridlock for much of the Glasgow motorway network twice a day. Whilst personally I find it very unpleasant to drive in, evidently, many people still do. If that helps skew that balance a bit for even a small number of people, that is to be very welcomed I think (Road pollution levels in several city centre streets being illegally high.) Peak weekday trains were noticeably quieter than those at weekends or after the peak, which at very least made something of a nonsense of the pricing structure, which, it could be argued should be the other way round (eg encouraging use of the 0600 trains ….)

 

[numtot12345]

Very much looking forward to this pilot starting. A couple of thoughts/questions:

• wonder how this will impact pre 9am demand on glasgow suburb routes; and
• More generally how it will impact on people attending glasgow city centre offices.
• 
  
• My friend made a cynical suggestion that - if they agree to remove peak fares, is there a chance they then increase the fare overall to somewhere between the off and on peak price?
• 
  
• Edinburgh-Glasgow line - I can only see the peak demand go up for that. Is there 15min frequency during peaks on the via Falkirk High line? If not might they need to up it? I know that unless you can afford it or travelling for business, you would tend to get the pre or post Peak trains to get the discount.
• Linked to the above- how might this impact on citylink 900? I know slightly different market. However they managed to take advantage of the significant rail cost to attract customers, as well as the rail strikes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My friend made a cynical suggestion that - if they agree to remove peak fares, is there a chance they then increase the fare overall to somewhere between the off and on peak price?

It's possible that if they adopt it long term they'll do it on a revenue neutral basis, but on most routes in Scotland (unlike England) the Anytime to Off Peak difference is fairly small so it won't mean massive increases. On Glasgow-Edinburgh it's fairly large though, with the Off Peak Day being about half the Anytime Day.

 

[Meerkat]

How are they paying for this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How are they paying for this?

The Scottish Government is funding it from the general coffers.

 

[Meerkat]

The Scottish Government is funding it from the general coffers.

I didn’t think they had any money to spare!

 

[hexagon789]

I didn’t think they had any money to spare!

£15m over 6 months...

 

[jagardner1984]

£15m over 6 months...

Which in government terms is really spare change ….

It would be interesting to know how the mechanics of this will work, if passenger counts of pre 0915 passengers will result in a credit from the government … ?