Scotrail to remove Peak Fares - six month pilot

[Bletchleyite]

It's an excellent idea in line with much of Europe. I hope it is a success.

It's worth noting that ScotRail's Super Off Peaks were a deep discount highly restricted fare, like those on West Midlands Trains for example, paid by a smallish proportion of people. Not like LNER, where the Super Off Peak is the former Saver (i.e. what most walk up passengers buy) and the Off Peak was the slightly less restricted ex-GNER "Business Saver" which was for shoulder peak travel.

 

[Retorus]

The super off peak offer was always very confusing to the average railway user. The app would let you buy a super off peak return for services that weren’t actually eligible for it.

 

[ld0595]

I think it's great news and hope it's successful. It's a shame about the removal of super off peak tickets but I'm not sure how widely used they are - I'm fairly sure they were only available on the smartcard or via the app?

It's just a shame this happens as I'm moving to a new role at work which no longer requires me to use the train

 

[Bletchleyite]

The super off peak offer was always very confusing to the average railway user. The app would let you buy a super off peak return for services that weren’t actually eligible for it.

They were also m-ticket and smartcard only, further limiting who could use them.

The idea of one level of walk-up fare is very compelling - it's as simple as fares can get with no loss of flexibility.

 

[DelW]

It should help to even out loadings at the edges of the peak, around 09:00 - 10:00 and 15:30 - 16:30 (I don't know what Scotrail's actual times were), and should also encourage some commuters back from roads.

If it were to be applied elsewhere, the withdrawal of super off peak fares would be likely to cause much outcry, as they're widely used within some TOCs.

 

[mrmartin]

Will be really interesting to see the results of this. However, I do wonder if the 6 month pilot nature of it will limit the impact. I think the biggest changes will take a while to feed through - people moving to cheaper housing further away that now makes sense because they don't have such an expensive commute.

I'm a bit unsure to who would suddenly start commuting just because it is half price in the peak. Either you need to or you don't. But, I can see over time people moving to say Glasgow from Edinburgh if the commute price is a lot less - but I think this will take time to feed through, or take jobs further away (both of these are good things for the economy of course).

I could be totally wrong though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it were to be applied elsewhere, the withdrawal of super off peak fares would be likely to cause much outcry, as they're widely used within some TOCs.

It depends which TOC.

As I mentioned above, there are TOCs where the Super Off Peak is the ex-Saver, and the Off Peak is a higher priced, less restricted "Business Saver" (e.g. LNER and GWR), and there are TOCs (e.g. Avanti and WMT) where the Off Peak is the ex-Saver and the Super Off Peak is a deep-discount, heavily restricted fare used by relatively few people.

It would just be a case of picking the right one to become the new Anytime price. On the former TOCs that means the Super Off Peak, on the latter TOCs that means the Off Peak, as per ScotRail.

 

[yorkie]

As per the title, peak fares have been withdrawn for a 6-month trial period in Scotland, to try to stimulate demand and encourage greener travel.
Super Off Peak tickets have also been withdrawn, however, leading to higher fares for some journeys.
Thoughts on this?

My main thought is that it just goes to show, yet again, that the 'powers that be' like to put the lowest priced journeys up and up in price, and will use any form of "simplification" as they can to hide, obscure or justify it.

We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

While it's a good idea to reduce the cost of peak-time travel, putting up the cost of super off peak travel is a bad move and a retrogade step.

If it were to be applied elsewhere, the withdrawal of super off peak fares would be likely to cause much outcry, as they're widely used within some TOCs.

Indeed; at least we are now pre-warned as to what might happen elsewhere (not that this wasn't predictable!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

While it's a good idea to reduce the cost of peak-time travel, putting up the cost of super off peak travel is a bad move and a retrogade step.

I'm going to disagree, as you may expect. Removing niche fares used by very few (these were m-ticket and smartcard only, excluding most users, and were heavily restricted) is a genuine and welcome simplification. They can chuck a few Advances in instead (available from all sales channels) to offset that for those on a really tight budget.

 

[yorkie]

Will be really interesting to see the results of this. However, I do wonder if the 6 month pilot nature of it will limit the impact. I think the biggest changes will take a while to feed through - people moving to cheaper housing further away that now makes sense because they don't have such an expensive commute.

I'm a bit unsure to who would suddenly start commuting just because it is half price in the peak. Either you need to or you don't. But, I can see over time people moving to say Glasgow from Edinburgh if the commute price is a lot less - but I think this will take time to feed through, or take jobs further away (both of these are good things for the economy of course).

I could be totally wrong though.

I think you are quite right that 6 months is not enough time to fully see the impact.

I'm going to disagree, as you may expect. Removing niche fares used by very few (these were m-ticket and smartcard only, excluding most users, and were heavily restricted) is a genuine and welcome simplification. They can chuck a few Advances in instead (available from all sales channels) to offset that for those on a really tight budget.

Yes of course; you are the type of user who is more likely to pay for the more expensive fares and less likely to require the cheaper fares; you are also a fan of being tied to specific trains.

You also have sufficient spare cash and are happy to accept price increases, especially those which particularly impact on people for whom money is more of a concern than yourself.

I am well aware you are for any form of simplification even if it means the fares that are paid by the people who are on tighter budgets go up in price; you don'e need to keep telling us this as we are reminded often enough!

I do agree with you that it was wrong that these fares were only available as m-tickets and on smartcards, and I pointed out the dubious nature of this in the past, however as Scotrail have finally agreed to switch from m-tickets to e-tickets, the general expectation was that Super Off Peak would be avialable as e-tickets, to bring them in line with other operators. That is what should have happened; not withdrawing them.

 

[mrmartin]

It should help to even out loadings at the edges of the peak, around 09:00 - 10:00 and 15:30 - 16:30 (I don't know what Scotrail's actual times were), and should also encourage some commuters back from roads.

If it were to be applied elsewhere, the withdrawal of super off peak fares would be likely to cause much outcry, as they're widely used within some TOCs.

Not hugely convinced we will see a lot of modal shift from cars at least in the central belt. Parking in Edinburgh or Glasgow is really expensive for the day, so either you have workplace providing parking so driving will still be cheaper; or if you are paying for it the train was already probably cheaper. I suppose it will be significantly cheaper now so may result more modal shift, but it's hard to get people out of their cars. I think more of a stick needs to be done personally (workplace parking levy) to make this happen.

 

[kez19]

It still works out that I’m still dearer going to Glasgow than I am Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but I’m sure split ticketing may well be possible to bring some down further, or alternatively use Megabus

 

[BwniCymraeg]

I will say that while I am sad to see super off-peaks go as a semi-regular user, I personally think it’s a worthwhile sacrifice for not needing to sprint down South Bridge after a university lecture to catch the last off-peak train! It is also worth noting that on many routes, such as my own commute, the price differential between peak and off-peak fares is greater than between off-peak and super off-peak by a decent margin, making me more than willing to pay a bit more for midday trips in exchange for the savings on days where I have an earlier start. I do wish that it were possible to remove the £12 minimum fare for railcards used before 10am, however!

 

[WesternLancer]

I assume (like in England) there are now just too many peak time trains carrying around fresh air as the prices are too high for leisure / discretionary times travel and many former commuters simply don't need to go to the office every day any more - and paying peak prices makes them even more likely to work from home.

 

[crablab]

and paying peak prices makes them even more likely to work from home.

Anecdotally, I'd go to the office more regularly if it wasn't double the price on an Anytime. As it is, I go in once a week maximum as the inconvenience of structuring my working day around the off-peak trains is too annoying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anecdotally, I'd go to the office more regularly if it wasn't double the price on an Anytime. As it is, I go in once a week maximum as the inconvenience of structuring my working day around the off-peak trains is too annoying.

Bletchley-Euston: Anytime Day Return* £46.30, Off Peak Day Return £23.40.

I presently go into our office once a week. I'd go twice if it was Off Peak all the time.

And that's with regulated South East Anytimes which are much better priced than InterCity ones. If I was in Wellingborough I'd be either driving to Northampton or not bothering.

* With a Network Railcard you can get it cheaper by buying singles, as you can on most South East routes, but even so it's not *much* cheaper.

 

[Hadders]

Bletchley-Euston: Anytime Day Return* £46.30, Off Peak Day Return £23.40.

I presently go into our office once a week. I'd go twice if it was Off Peak all the time.

And that's with regulated South East Anytimes which are much better priced than InterCity ones. If I was in Wellingborough I'd be either driving to Northampton or not bothering.

* With a Network Railcard you can get it cheaper by buying singles, as you can on most South East routes, but even so it's not *much* cheaper.

But £15.40 Off Peak Day Return with a Network Railcard although that can't be used before 10am on a weekday but I know lots of people who arrive into the office c.11am having travelled in using a Network Railcard discounted Off Peak Day Return.

There's an argument for a National Railcard costing, say, £200 (maybe more) that gave a 34% discount off fares at any time of day. That would bring the cost of the Anytime Day Return from BLY to EUS down to around £31.

 

[gray1404]

Absolutely disgusting that they have withdrawn the Super Off Peak Fares . So while creating publicity about withdrawing anytime fairs they have actually increased the price of the cheapest tickets. This shows their true intention. There was no reason they could not have abolished the Anytime Fares and launched this Off Peak trial whilst to maintaining the Super Off-Peak Fares.

 

[infobleep]

Will be really interesting to see the results of this. However, I do wonder if the 6 month pilot nature of it will limit the impact. I think the biggest changes will take a while to feed through - people moving to cheaper housing further away that now makes sense because they don't have such an expensive commute.

I'm a bit unsure to who would suddenly start commuting just because it is half price in the peak. Either you need to or you don't. But, I can see over time people moving to say Glasgow from Edinburgh if the commute price is a lot less - but I think this will take time to feed through, or take jobs further away (both of these are good things for the economy of course).

I could be totally wrong though.

Whilst I might not commute more, I do now leave earlier, given there are cheap bus fares in England. So that is an example of change based on price.

Where are you starting from?

It still works out that I’m still dearer going to Glasgow than I am Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but I’m sure split ticketing may well be possible to bring some down further, or alternatively use Megabus

Where are you starting from?

 

[hexagon789]

There was no reason they could not have abolished the Anytime Fares and launched this Off Peak trial whilst to maintaining the Super Off-Peak Fares.

There is a reason, they stated it and it seems quite reasonable for the purposes of the trial.

The Super Off-Peak type also only constituted 7% of all ticket sales...

 

[kkong]

Where are you starting from?

The OP's profile states a location of Dundee, which sounds about right for the situation they describe.

Absolutely disgusting that they have withdrawn the Super Off Peak Fares . So while creating publicity about withdrawing anytime fairs they have actually increased the price of the cheapest tickets. This shows their true intention. There was no reason they could not have abolished the Anytime Fares and launched this Off Peak trial whilst to maintaining the Super Off-Peak Fares.

I think this is a wild and incorrect take on the matter.

The peak restrictions will be re-imposed on 1st April while the results of the 6 month trial are analysed.

So of course there's no point in deleting fares from systems now only to have to re-create them all in 6 months.

The Super Off-Peak tickets are so restrictive in terms of their times and days of the week (e.g. Mon-Fri only, not valid before 11:00 or between 15:00 and 20:00), they really are a niche product.

IMO, the greater good is clearly served by removing all peak restrictions.

It's worth bearing in mind that there are some genuine (relative) losers in the trial - those who travel on flows where there are only Anytime tickets will see no benefit.

 

[Haywain]

It still works out that I’m still dearer going to Glasgow than I am Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but I’m sure split ticketing may well be possible to bring some down further, or alternatively use Megabus

It's more expensive to make a longer journey? Who'd have thought it!

 

[kkong]

Removing niche fares used by very few (these were m-ticket and smartcard only, excluding most users, and were heavily restricted) is a genuine and welcome simplification.

I'm not sure I can agree with this part.

From my regular travels, a significant majority of passengers on many ScotRail services use mTickets.

Then I would say paper tickets are the next most common, then finally smartcards.

 

[Falcon1200]

It should help to even out loadings at the edges of the peak, around 09:00 - 10:00 and 15:30 - 16:30 (I don't know what Scotrail's actual times were), and should also encourage some commuters back from roads.

Might it not also increase loadings on the already-busiest peak hour trains? After all, the whole point of off-peak fares is to encourage people to travel at less busy times!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might it not also increase loadings on the already-busiest peak hour trains? After all, the whole point of off-peak fares is to encourage people to travel at less busy times!

That's not been the point of them for a very, very, very long time. They now exist to maximise income, and solely for that purpose.

 

[Falcon1200]

That's not been the point of them for a very, very, very long time. They now exist to maximise income, and solely for that purpose.

Do you mean that cheaper off-peak fares exist solely to maximise income, or are you referring to the higher peak fares? Because the latter are the standard fares applicable at all times, off peak fares are a reduction designed from them, as I said, to spread the load away from the rush hours, aren't they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean that cheaper off-peak fares exist solely to maximise income, or are you referring to the higher peak fares?

The fare system is designed to maximise income by differentiating the market, charging higher prices to those who have little choice but to pay them ie commuters, and lower prices to those who do have a choice.

Because the latter are the standard fares applicable at all times, off peak fares are a reduction designed from them, as I said, to spread the load away from the rush hours, aren't they?

To maximise income. If they were about spreading loads, Friday evenings out of London would be peak, as would Sunday afternoons back south. People don't travel at busy times if they can avoid them, as it's not enjoyable.

 

[Falcon1200]

The fare system is designed to maximise income by differentiating the market, charging higher prices to those who have little choice but to pay them ie commuters, and lower prices to those who do have a choice.

That's one way of looking at it! An alternative is that when trains are going to be full anyway, ie during the peaks, charge higher fares to try to cover the cost of running the service (especially where infrastructure, staff and stock are fully utilised for only a small part of each day) and at quieter times reduce fares to spread the load.

 

[Haywain]

If they were about spreading loads, Friday evenings out of London would be peak, as would Sunday afternoons back south.

LNER peak restrictions on Friday evenings out of London were abolished specifically to spread loads (before Friday peak restrictions were abolished completely)

 

[yorksrob]

It's a bit of a pity that this isn't a "clean" experiment i.e. without any sneaky withdrawals of better value fares, but it will be interesting none the less.

I've certainly found super-off peak fares to be useful from Yorkshire and London to the South West and wouldn't want them to go.

Assuming the rest of the UK doesn't go down the same road around of removing all peak fares, the idea above of abolishing peak on Fridays seems sensible, given that Friday has seen a big increase in leisure and decline in business travel. Needs to be morning peak as well though to encourage day trips/long weekends.