Scotrail train travelling with doors open on Borders Railway 27/9/20

[2HAP]

A Scotrail train travelled along the Borders railway with its doors open. It was terminated at Shawfair and passengers were transferred to another train.

Borders train had doors 'wide open' during journey to Edinburgh

PASSENGERS on the Borders Railway were forced to switch trains after a set of doors refused to shut during the journey.

www.bordertelegraph.com

PASSENGERS on the Borders Railway were forced to switch trains after a set of doors refused to shut during the journey.

... a source told the Edinburgh Evening News that the train had gone “a fair distance, perhaps several miles”.

 

[DorkingMain]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

 

[StephenHunter]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

I've just watched a certain film on Netflix where something similar happens and no-one pulls the emergency cord.

 

[adrock1976]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

I've just watched a certain film on Netflix where something similar happens and no-one pulls the emergency cord.

Depending how many passengers were on board, it may have been a phenomenen of what is called diffusion of responsibility, where if there are other people in proximity, most will think that somebody else will deal with the situation in bringing it to the train crews attention.

For what I am trying to explain here, see Latane and Darley's study from 1968 of the smoke filled room experiment, and the various studies of the Kitty Genovese murder in 1964 for the bystander effect.

 

[StephenHunter]

The "Somebody Else's Problem" field.

 

[mrcheek]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

Are you trying to blame the passengers for this incident?
Surely the first reaction should be to blame train and platform staff

 

[LowLevel]

Are you trying to blame the passengers for this incident?
Surely the first reaction should be to blame train and platform staff

It is very unlikely to be anything to do with the train crew or platform staff.

It will either be a class 158 or class 170 DMU and neither should be able to take power with a door open. It will be due to a defect on board the train.

 

[Merle Haggard]

This incident was reported in the 'Scotsman' on-line soon after it happened, and that article suggested it was a Cl. 170 for what that's worth.

A Meridian ran for some distance with a door open a few years ago. The RAIB report said that CCTV showed passengers walking past it apparently unconcerned. One passenger did report the door open to the TM, but the latter assumed that the passenger was referring to internal (vestibule) door and did nothing. The defect was due to an upgrade.

 

[edwin_m]

It is very unlikely to be anything to do with the train crew or platform staff.

It will either be a class 158 or class 170 DMU and neither should be able to take power with a door open. It will be due to a defect on board the train.

Isn't there an isolation switch for that, which might have been either faulty or inappropriately used?

 

[sportzbar]

Faults do occur occasionally. Once as a guard I'd just left a station and was positioned by my local door on a 156. As per procedure I remained at the door until the train had left the platform. I turned to walk away and suddenly the vestibule became very noisy. On turning back I watched in amazement as my local door slid open by itself. Luckily the emergency brake kicked in and stopped the train. Needless to say the service was cancelled.

 

[Robertj21a]

This incident was reported in the 'Scotsman' on-line soon after it happened, and that article suggested it was a Cl. 170 for what that's worth.

A Meridian ran for some distance with a door open a few years ago. The RAIB report said that CCTV showed passengers walking past it apparently unconcerned. One passenger did report the door open to the TM, but the latter assumed that the passenger was referring to internal (vestibule) door and did nothing. The defect was due to an upgrade.

I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation.

 

[CC 72100]

I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation.

Really?!!!

If you had gone through any, even a basic intro, level of rules training, you would understand why that statement is very very wrong in terms of an appropriate.

 

[37424]

I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation.

Indeed I would probably do similar or go look for the guard depending on the train and the speed its doing and when the next station stop would be. I know the attitude of the railway health and safety and clearly some people on here is that we are all idiots that need to be protected from ourselves but perhaps some people don't share that view.

I remember years ago on a loco hauled TPE service I noticed looking out of the window (shock horror I dared to look out of the window) that there was an open door on the parcels van at the front of the train, so I told the guard at the next station which was only a few minutes away.

In fact if I pulled the emergency alarm I wouldn't trust the railway not to come with some excuse for giving me a fine these days.

 

[PeterC]

Really?!!!

If you had gone through any, even a basic intro, level of rules training, you would understand why that statement is very very wrong in terms of an appropriate.

Since when have passengers had training in the railway rule book.

 

[Fokx]

Not surprising at all, most passengers wouldn’t be aware of where to find a PAU let alone what it’s actually used for

 

[Meerkat]

I despair that people will let a train travel several miles with the doors open before they decide it's a good idea to pull the emergency alarm, but when they miss their stop will yank it immediately.

Why would you want to stop the train if no one is near the door in danger of falling out?
You are on the train because you want to get somewhere, stopping the train in the middle of nowhere for a few hours isn’t conducive to achieving that.

 

[CC 72100]

Since when have passengers had training in the railway rule book.

They haven't, but I would thought that those on-board would be able to recognise the danger of an open door - to quote the original post, whether they 'were adults or not'.

 

[skyhigh]

Isn't there an isolation switch for that, which might have been either faulty or inappropriately used?

There is an isolation switch you'd need to operate on a 170 to achieve movement with a door open, and I can pretty much guarantee no train crew will have been touching those without specific permission from control.

 

[theironroad]

I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation.

While I tend to agree that there is some illogical hysteria (my words!) about these very rare incidents of doors being open , if the next stop is a long way off then it needs reporting sooner rather than later. The crew can then attend to the door and lock it out of use.

People seem to forget that thousands of people a day board trains in parts of the world that have no doors and no windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really?!!!

If you had gone through any, even a basic intro, level of rules training, you would understand why that statement is very very wrong in terms of an appropriate.

A passenger isn't subject to railway rules training.

I might well think similarly because of the railway's approach to evacuations. Report it on plain line and you could be set for a 3 hour stranding. Report it at the next station (which wouldn't have been far off) and you can get off and get a taxi.

I'd probably see a Pendolino at 125mph (I think this happened, didn't it?) not stopping for another half hour rather differently from say the Marston Vale with the next stop 2 minutes away. For the former I'd definitely pull the handle, for the latter I'd keep an eye on the door and wait until the station then go and tell the guard.

 

[Domh245]

They haven't, but I would thought that those on-board would be able to recognise the danger of an open door

The first (& only) danger that would come to a passengers mind is falling out, and if nobody is near the doors then there's no urgent danger as far as passengers may be concerned.

 

[Lloyds siding]

They haven't, but I would thought that those on-board would be able to recognise the danger of an open door - to quote the original post, whether they 'were adults or not'.

And the danger of an open door is what? Provided that adults are around then they keep children away, make sure buggies and bikes aren't going to slide out. and generally keep people a safe distance away, i.e. sat down, then report it at the next station. In itself, it's not a life threatening situation.
It happened on one of my local emus. The guard came along, locked the door shut somehow, and stuck tape all over it saying door out of use.

 

[eoff]

Not surprising at all, most passengers wouldn’t be aware of where to find a PAU let alone what it’s actually used for

I don't know what a PAU is but assuming it is some kind of alarm that replaced the very obvious and available communication chord that would be at the doors, next to the danger in question. I know that there are announcements advising passengers to read the emergency notices but unfortunately I don't do so because the first train I ever did this on had a notice that did not match the carriage layout so it seemed pointless to me.

 

[CC 72100]

The first (& only) danger that would come to a passengers mind is falling out, and if nobody is near the doors then there's no urgent danger as far as passengers may be concerned.

That is essentially the danger, yes. But in that scenario, there is less danger is the train is not moving than if you are going along at 70mph.

And the danger of an open door is what? Provided that adults are around then they keep children away, make sure buggies and bikes aren't going to slide out. and generally keep people a safe distance away, i.e. sat down, then report it at the next station. In itself, it's not a life threatening situation.
It happened on one of my local emus. The guard came along, locked the door shut somehow, and stuck tape all over it saying door out of use.

The RSSB who write the Rule Book do think it represents a certain level of danger:

Module G1, Section 2:

" Whenever you can, you must check a moving train for anythingthat looks unsafe such as:
•a door not closed properly
•an insecure load
•a vehicle on fire
•a hot axle box
•the headlight not lit
•the tail lamp missing or not lit
•the driver sounding the train in distress warning (which is a continuous series of long blasts on the high/loud tone of the horn)
•the driver or guard displaying a red handsignal
•the hazard warning indicator (flashing headlights).

If you become aware of any of these hazards or warnings or other dangers, you must immediately tell the signaller, or if this is not possible, the person in charge."

 

[eoff]

That is essentially the danger, yes. But in that scenario, there is less danger is the train is not moving than if you are going along at 70mph.

These are tricky things to determine. A small child would likely be scared of a noisy open door, the same child might look out and may fall out if the train was stopped. In practice guarding the door, locking it or taking the carriage out of service of course make sense.

 

[CC 72100]

These are tricky things to determine. A small child would likely be scared of a noisy open door, the same child might look out and may fall out if the train was stopped.

I would suggest that whoever had raised the alarm to bring the train to a stand stays in the vicinity until 'relieved' (for want of a better word) by the Guard who has come to investigate why the passcomm has been pulled.

In practice guarding the door, locking it or taking the carriage out of service of course make sense.

Which is exactly what the rule book goes on to say if the train has to be worked forward with a door (knowingly) open. If it is impossible to make safe, then restrict access, preferably by a physical lock or at very bottom of the list the use of someone preventing access to the area.

 

[Lloyds siding]

That is essentially the danger, yes. But in that scenario, there is less danger is the train is not moving than if you are going along at 70mph.



The RSSB who write the Rule Book do think it represents a certain level of danger:

Module G1, Section 2:

" Whenever you can, you must check a moving train for anythingthat looks unsafe such as:
•a door not closed properly
•an insecure load
•a vehicle on fire
•a hot axle box
•the headlight not lit
•the tail lamp missing or not lit
•the driver sounding the train in distress warning (which is a continuous series of long blasts on the high/loud tone of the horn)
•the driver or guard displaying a red handsignal
•the hazard warning indicator (flashing headlights).

If you become aware of any of these hazards or warnings or other dangers, you must immediately tell the signaller, or if this is not possible, the person in charge."

Firstly, I'm not a railwayman, so none of that applies to me.
Yes, it's a hazard (as the rule book recognises), but, as I said before, not an immediate risk to life.
Only if someone or something is at risk of falling out of the door does it warrant pulling an emergency alarm,as others have suggested.

 

[CC 72100]

Firstly, I'm not a railwayman, so none of that applies to me.
Yes, it's a hazard (as the rule book recognises), but, as I said before, not an immediate risk to life.
Only if someone or something is at risk of falling out of the door does it warrant pulling an emergency alarm,as others have suggested.

How do you determine that? Because that can change over time (ie. you walk past it on steady footing, take the view that you are not at risk of falling out, then 2 minutes later the group of lads who are on can number 7 come charging past, already unsteady, as the train goes over a set of points - for them the risk is higher).

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not sure I'd bother reporting it until the next station, as long as those on board were adults and aware of the situation.

Extraordinary - I would report it immediately so that the appropriate action could be taken as soon as possible.

Firstly, I'm not a railwayman, so none of that applies to me.
Yes, it's a hazard (as the rule book recognises), but, as I said before, not an immediate risk to life.
Only if someone or something is at risk of falling out of the door does it warrant pulling an emergency alarm,as others have suggested.

On that basis, if a fire starts in a room, wait for a convenient moment to report it as long as everyone knows it's there and it appears not to be spreading.

 

[Acfb]

Extraordinary - I would report it immediately so that the appropriate action could be taken as soon as possible.


On that basis, if a fire starts in a room, wait for a convenient moment to report it as long as everyone knows it's there and it appears not to be spreading.

It's only 4 minutes from Eskbank to Shawfair, can't have been going very fast.