Scottish Citizen Plan

[GusB]

The independence brigade have published their Scottish citizenship and passport plan. (Link is to a BBC page outlining the proposals.)

"Speaking at [the] launch event in Edinburgh attended by "New Scots" including Ukrainian and Syrian refugees, Mr Yousaf said a move to a more "inclusive" Irish-style citizenship system would be beneficial morally and economically."

I'm quoting the above in a separate thread because I think we've moved on from the resignation of Sturgeon and the appointment of Yousaf.

It'd be nice if @InkyScrolls could post the proper link to the article they're referring to, but I've found this from the BBC:

At a glance: Who would be a Scottish citizen after independence?

Some of the key details of the Scottish government's latest paper on independence

www.bbc.co.uk

Scotland's first minister Humza Yousaf has set out plans for citizenship in an independent Scotland.

The proposals were published in the latest paper in the Building a New Scotland series.

Mr Yousaf said he wanted what he called a "fairer and more welcoming approach" to citizenship than the current UK system.

The Scottish government paper says it is a vision for an inclusive model of citizenship after independence.

Would I be a Scottish citizen?
If you are a British citizen living in Scotland on the day it became independent, you would be entitled to Scottish citizenship.

The same applies if you were born in Scotland.

In both cases, the paper says you will automatically qualify for citizen services without having to do anything else.

If you do not live in Scotland you would automatically qualify for citizenship so long as one of your parents was a British citizen born in Scotland or if you have previously lived in Scotland for at least 10 years, or five years as a child. Young adults applying would face an assessment of the time they had lived in Scotland.

In these kinds of cases you might have to provide evidence of your eligibility before accessing services.

The paper says there would be an opt-out available to those who did not want to automatically become a Scottish citizen.

What if I am not a British citizen?
The right to citizenship would be open to Irish citizens living in Scotland, and children of any nationality living in Scotland who were brought up there.

People from other countries could become naturalised Scottish citizens if they have lived in Scotland for at least five years and been "settled" in Scotland for at least 12 months.

This means having the right to live and work in Scotland without restrictions such as needing a visa.

What would happen to my passport?
The proposals say Scottish citizens would be able to hold a new Scottish passport after independence.

Any currently valid UK passports would continue to be recognised in Scotland until their expiry date.

The application process for the new passport would be the same as currently exists for the UK passport.

At the launch of the paper, Mr Yousaf announced the new passports would revert to the burgundy colour they were before the UK left the European Union.

Could I work and live in an independent Scotland without being a Scottish citizen?
The paper proposes that Scotland would remain in the Common Travel Area after independence.

This would retain the right of British and Irish citizens to work in Scotland without restriction. Scottish citizens would retain these same rights throughout the British isles.

The paper summary says: "Once Scotland re-joined the European Union, Scottish citizens would once again become EU citizens. This would allow them and their families to live, work and study freely across all 27 current EU member states, as well as Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland".

What happens to future generations?
Children born in Scotland after independence would automatically be Scottish citizens if at least one of their parents was a Scottish, British, or Irish citizen.

A new-born would also qualify under new Scottish immigration laws if he or she was "settled" in Scotland under the country's independent immigration laws.

A child born outside Scotland after independence would automatically be entitled to Scottish citizenship if at least one of their parents is a Scottish citizen.

This all seems fairly straightforward to me. Could I ask that @InkyScrolls explain exactly what point they're trying to make?

 

[Noddy]

I'm quoting the above in a separate thread because I think we've moved on from the resignation of Sturgeon and the appointment of Yousaf.

It'd be nice if @InkyScrolls could post the proper link to the article they're referring to, but I've found this from the BBC:

At a glance: Who would be a Scottish citizen after independence?

Some of the key details of the Scottish government's latest paper on independence

www.bbc.co.uk

This all seems fairly straightforward to me. Could I ask that @InkyScrolls explain exactly what point they're trying to make?

Quoting the quote it’s says ‘Once Scotland has rejoined the European Union…’. Assuming the quote is correct, that’s quite a presumption to make. While no doubt popular with some, there would be a huge amount of issues to deal with first surrounding the land border and specifically Scotland-rUK trade, just as there have been with GB/NI/Ireland trade (and still not fully resolved to the loss of many because of a complete loss of foresight and planning).

 

[Cloud Strife]

Quoting the quote it’s says ‘Once Scotland has rejoined the European Union…’. Assuming the quote is correct, that’s quite a presumption to make. While no doubt popular with some, there would be a huge amount of issues to deal with first surrounding the land border and specifically Scotland-rUK trade, just as there have been with GB/NI/Ireland trade (and still not fully resolved to the loss of many because of a complete loss of foresight and planning).

The issue is actually much easier between Scotland and rUK than it is between Northern Ireland and the state of Ireland. There aren't that many border crossings between Scotland and the rUK. By my counting, you'd have full border crossings (for the purposes of customs control!) in the following places:

1. M6
2. A7
3. A68
4. A698
5. A1

The other crossings would operate on a 'nothing to declare' basis. The Norway-Sweden border is an example, and I'd expect Scotland to stay within the CTA unless there are significant and tangible benefits to joining Schengen properly, which I don't believe there are in the case of Scotland or Ireland.

This all seems fairly straightforward to me.

Yes, the only big change is that Scotland would introduce the Irish and Polish model, so that anyone with a Scottish citizen parent would automatically receive citizenship. This is something that the UK really should think about introducing, as it's ridiculous that the children of British citizens born outside the UK cannot pass British citizenship onto their children.

The only thing here that should be added: it would make sense to talk publicly and loudly about the rights of British and Irish citizens in Scotland post-independence, in that they would have the absolute right to remain without any additional barriers or bureaucracy, or requirement to apply for a Scottish passport.

As for Scotland rejoining the EU, I'd expect the Icelandic offer here: fast-track to EU membership with minimal problems. The Scottish civil service are, to the best of my knowledge, keeping track of EU legal changes and doing their best to keep Scotland aligned with EU law, so it shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[Parjon]

Given the immigration issues that Ireland has suffered in recent years, I would be surprised if they pursued this in practice. Unless they particularly wanted to cause problems for the UK.

Scotland remaining in the CTA isn't a given. Ireland has a sea frontier with mainland UK which negates some of the issues they've faced impacting here, but also there are much stronger sensitivities on both sides of the Irish border to account for. These just don't exist re Scotland.

If SNP distinction is that the UK's immigration system is viewed as too illiberal, how does square with it allowing its immigration system to be opened up by the backdoor. Unfortunately, I can imagine this triggering increasingly hard line UK government responding to populism. Scotland out of the CTA, and a very, very hard border.

As for Scotland joining the EU, I suspect they'll find business pragmatism favouring working with the UK over risk of antagonising. When they look at the SNP, will they see an opportunity or just a potential thorn? And that's before considering the geopolitics of how a future hardline UK might view independence drives in Spain, France, Italy in response.

So, I think this is just difference rhetoric. A dead parrot in the room to stop people talking about corruption.

The moment they start talking about Scotland actually going it alone, planning for their own currency, planning for border controls, and setting out how they'd control, rather than encourage, immigration, I think that's the point at which Scottish independence is actually likely.

 

[Noddy]

The issue is actually much easier between Scotland and rUK than it is between Northern Ireland and the state of Ireland. There aren't that many border crossings between Scotland and the rUK. By my counting, you'd have full border crossings (for the purposes of customs control!) in the following places:

1. M6
2. A7
3. A68
4. A698
5. A1

The other crossings would operate on a 'nothing to declare' basis. The Norway-Sweden border is an example, and I'd expect Scotland to stay within the CTA unless there are significant and tangible benefits to joining Schengen properly, which I don't believe there are in the case of Scotland or Ireland.

My point isn’t really about the physical infrastructure. It’s that (one set of) UK politicians made it more difficult and expensive for businesses to trade for the sake of a political decision. Would Scottish politicians actually make the same mistake when faced by that very same decision.

 

[SargeNpton]

The issue is actually much easier between Scotland and rUK than it is between Northern Ireland and the state of Ireland. There aren't that many border crossings between Scotland and the rUK. By my counting, you'd have full border crossings (for the purposes of customs control!) in the following places:

1. M6
2. A7
3. A68
4. A698
5. A1

The other crossings would operate on a 'nothing to declare' basis. The Norway-Sweden border is an example, and I'd expect Scotland to stay within the CTA unless there are significant and tangible benefits to joining Schengen properly, which I don't believe there are in the case of Scotland or Ireland.

All those other crossings (and numerous footpaths) then being used to smuggle goods one way or the other where VAT and other duty rates make it worthwhile to do so.

Putting a border crossing at the Union Chain Bridge would be quite ironic.

 

[InkyScrolls]

As requested, the link to the BBC article. I don't know why it defaulted to a link I copied over a year ago!

This all seems fairly straightforward to me. Could I ask that @InkyScrolls explain exactly what point they're trying to make?

Not sure what you mean - I didn't write the article.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Scotland out of the CTA, and a very, very hard border.

The UK hasn't implemented a hard border with Ireland despite the EU-UK border being wide open. I can fly (and have done!) to Dublin on my ID card, then travel to the UK without any control whatsoever. I can then stay in the UK indefinitely without anyone checking what I'm doing there, and I don't have to have any documents that prove that I'm a British citizen.

And that's before considering the geopolitics of how a future hardline UK might view independence drives in Spain, France, Italy in response.

But why is it always assumed that the rUK are going to be hostile towards Scotland? It almost seems as if the English are determined to punish the Scots for going it alone, whereas Scotland is clear that the future relationship with the rUK should be very similar to the Irish one.

All those other crossings (and numerous footpaths) then being used to smuggle goods one way or the other where VAT and other duty rates make it worthwhile to do so.

Smuggling can be dealt with by simply analysing how the Norwegians, the Swiss and the EU handle those borders. For instance, the Swedish barely control cars and pedestrians on their border with Norway, likewise the Germans and French barely control the Swiss frontier. The Italians do, but this is mostly related to huge amounts of cash smuggling to/from Switzerland rather than being about goods.

It's worth pointing out that the EU borders are not that 'hard' in practice. Over the last few days, I've crossed multiple times between Croatia and Bosnia. Croatia barely controls travellers for goods on exit from the EU, and I've been waved through several times with my UK passport on exit from Schengen. On entry, Customs are sometimes present, but not systematically so, while passports are scanned (but not always stamped).

I'd also add one thing: the UK currently controls the border in a variety of ways, not just through border controls. It's very possible that an independent Scotland will agree to implement the same systems as part of the CTA, which would also cover EU citizens taking advantage of FoM.

But really, why does it always go back to "Scotland can't because England will throw a sulk"?

 

[yorksrob]

The UK hasn't implemented a hard border with Ireland despite the EU-UK border being wide open. I can fly (and have done!) to Dublin on my ID card, then travel to the UK without any control whatsoever. I can then stay in the UK indefinitely without anyone checking what I'm doing there, and I don't have to have any documents that prove that I'm a British citizen.



But why is it always assumed that the rUK are going to be hostile towards Scotland? It almost seems as if the English are determined to punish the Scots for going it alone, whereas Scotland is clear that the future relationship with the rUK should be very similar to the Irish one.



Smuggling can be dealt with by simply analysing how the Norwegians, the Swiss and the EU handle those borders. For instance, the Swedish barely control cars and pedestrians on their border with Norway, likewise the Germans and French barely control the Swiss frontier. The Italians do, but this is mostly related to huge amounts of cash smuggling to/from Switzerland rather than being about goods.

It's worth pointing out that the EU borders are not that 'hard' in practice. Over the last few days, I've crossed multiple times between Croatia and Bosnia. Croatia barely controls travellers for goods on exit from the EU, and I've been waved through several times with my UK passport on exit from Schengen. On entry, Customs are sometimes present, but not systematically so, while passports are scanned (but not always stamped).

I'd also add one thing: the UK currently controls the border in a variety of ways, not just through border controls. It's very possible that an independent Scotland will agree to implement the same systems as part of the CTA, which would also cover EU citizens taking advantage of FoM.

But really, why does it always go back to "Scotland can't because England will throw a sulk"?

Its an anti-British viewpoint.

That's enough for me to be against it.

 

[najaB]

Its an anti-British viewpoint.

That's enough for me to be against it.

To be accurate, it's an anti-Union viewpoint. Britishness is cultural more than it is about a passport.

As an example, the Falkland Islanders are very British, despite several thousand miles of natural boundary between them and us.

 

[yorksrob]

To be accurate, it's an anti-Union viewpoint. Britishness is cultural more than it is about a passport.

As an example, the Falkland Islanders are very British, despite several thousand miles of natural boundary between them and us.

Very good point.

I'm very anti - anti union.

 

[GusB]

Its an anti-British viewpoint.

That's enough for me to be against it.

Is that all you've got to add to the discussion? Seriously, if you haven't got anything remotely interesting to say you should bow out and say nothing. There's no place for such hysterical nonsense.

Not everyone who lives within the "United Kingdom" feels that they're "British" - I don't, and I don't think I ever have. What is "Britishness" anyway? Any time I see "Britishness" portrayed on the telly it's usually conflated with "Englishness" and that alienates people who don't align with being English. For the record, I've no objection to English people identifying themselves as being English, but it's immensely frustrating when "UK" and "England" are seen as interchangeable terms when this is simply not the case.

Getting back on topic, I don't see why so many people have a problem with the idea that a country which has ambitions to be independent should start having discussions about how things would be in the event that independence actually happens. It's better to have these conversations beforehand. Clearly it's not possible to set anything in stone, and that's another stick that the unionists use to beat us with, but there's nothing wrong with having conversations about how things might be in the future.

 

[najaB]

Not everyone who lives within the "United Kingdom" feels that they're "British" - I don't, and I don't think I ever have.

I definitely feel British, but I feel more Scottish overall. That said, while I'm born British, I've only lived in Scotland as an adult. Neither of my brothers lived anywhere in the UK other than England and I can definitely tell that we have different viewpoints.

What is "Britishness" anyway?

That's a question that would take forever to answer, but in a nutshell it's a set of shared values found throughout the British Isles founded on mutual respect, politeness (where else in the world would I say "sorry" when somebody steps on my foot?), a sense of fairness, deference to authority (but not so much that we aren't perfectly willing to roast them), an appreciation of dry humour and sarcasm, a love of weird traditions, and a general sense of optimistic pessimism ("How are you?" is answered invariably with "Not *too* bad", "Well, you know" or "Could be worse").

I would say those things apply in Scotland as much as in England, if not more.

 

[yorksrob]

Is that all you've got to add to the discussion? Seriously, if you haven't got anything remotely interesting to say you should bow out and say nothing. There's no place for such hysterical nonsense.

Not everyone who lives within the "United Kingdom" feels that they're "British" - I don't, and I don't think I ever have. What is "Britishness" anyway? Any time I see "Britishness" portrayed on the telly it's usually conflated with "Englishness" and that alienates people who don't align with being English. For the record, I've no objection to English people identifying themselves as being English, but it's immensely frustrating when "UK" and "England" are seen as interchangeable terms when this is simply not the case.

Getting back on topic, I don't see why so many people have a problem with the idea that a country which has ambitions to be independent should start having discussions about how things would be in the event that independence actually happens. It's better to have these conversations beforehand. Clearly it's not possible to set anything in stone, and that's another stick that the unionists use to beat us with, but there's nothing wrong with having conversations about how things might be in the future.

It might not be 'interesting' to the nationalists, but it sums up my viewpoint. Pretty concisely too.

 

[najaB]

It might not be 'interesting' to the nationalists, but it sums up my viewpoint. Pretty concisely too.

That is true, but @GusB does have a valid critique that "I don't like it" doesn't advance the discussion much, whereas "I don't like it because..." contributes much more - if only because it allows for a counter to your point.

 

[Noddy]

Getting back on topic, I don't see why so many people have a problem with the idea that a country which has ambitions to be independent should start having discussions about how things would be in the event that independence actually happens. It's better to have these conversations beforehand. Clearly it's not possible to set anything in stone, and that's another stick that the unionists use to beat us with, but there's nothing wrong with having conversations about how things might be in the future.

The issue is that a) this was done before 2014* so why is it being redone now (those discussions have already been had and seemed eminently sensible) and b) more importantly why is taxpayers money being spent on it now when there is absolutely no chance of a referendum being held and independence happening in the current political cycle. If we were in a period up to a referendum (such as 2011-14) it would be absolutely legitimate and the right thing to do, but we are not. It very much feels like the SNP spending government (ie taxpayers) money, time and energy *trying* to do something to appease their own voters and shore up support (which is clearly waning), while actually doing nothing useful at all. Something that if Labour or the Tories did in one of the other UK parliaments, the opposition (including SNP) would rightly criticise.


*https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/15/

374. What different routes to citizenship will exist under the Scottish Government's proposals and who will qualify for these?

After the date of independence
At the date of independence
Current Status	Scottish Citizenship?
British citizen habitually resident in Scotland on day one of independence	Yes, automatically a Scottish citizen
British citizens born in Scotland but living outside of Scotland on day one of independence	Yes, automatically a Scottish citizen
Child born in Scotland to at least one parent who has Scottish citizenship or indefinite leave to remain at the time of their birth	Yes. Automatically a Scottish citizen
Child born outside Scotland to at least one parent who has Scottish citizenship	Yes. Automatically a Scottish citizen (the birth must be registered in Scotland to take effect)
British national living outside Scotland with at least one parent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship	Can register as a Scottish citizen (will need to provide evidence to substantiate)
Citizens of any country, who have a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship	Can register as a Scottish citizen (will need to provide evidence to substantiate)
Migrants in Scotland legally	May apply for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen (subject to meeting good character, residency and any other requirements set out under Scottish immigration law)
Citizens of any country who have spent at least 10 years living in Scotland at any time and have an ongoing connection with Scotland	May apply for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen (subject to meeting good character and other requirements set out under Scottish immigration law)

 

[yorksrob]

That is true, but @GusB does have a valid critique that "I don't like it" doesn't advance the discussion much, whereas "I don't like it because..." contributes much more - if only because it allows for a counter to your point.

I don't like it because it would signal the break up of Britain.

I will spare you waffle.

 

[westv]

I don't like it because it would signal the break up of Britain.

I will spare you waffle.

And the SNP is full of "pie in the sky" ideas the same as those promoting Brexit were.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Not everyone who lives within the "United Kingdom" feels that they're "British" - I don't, and I don't think I ever have. What is "Britishness" anyway? Any time I see "Britishness" portrayed on the telly it's usually conflated with "Englishness" and that alienates people who don't align with being English.

Exactly. Britain is not England, no matter how much England wants to impose their ways on everyone else. Many of the things brought up during the Brexit referendum were specifically English issues, such as issues with immigration. They weren't and haven't been an issue in Scotland, where opposition to the EU was based more upon issues such as fishing rights.

It's also surprising just how many English people want to deny the existence of the Scottish identity by pushing some idea of "Britishness" that is culturally alien to many people in Scotland.

...awaiting "Scotland is too small to be independent" in 5, 4, 3...

I don't like it because it would signal the break up of Britain.

So Scotland is supposed to stay in the Union because the English want them to? This is about as anti-democratic as it gets.

 

[yorksrob]

So Scotland is supposed to stay in the Union because the English want them to? This is about as anti-democratic as it gets.

Ultimately it's Scotland's choice. That doesn't automatically make it a good thing.

And the SNP is full of "pie in the sky" ideas the same as those promoting Brexit were.

Undoubtedly truth in that.

 

[oldman]

It's also surprising just how many English people want to deny the existence of the Scottish identity by pushing some idea of "Britishness" that is culturally alien to many people in Scotland.

It's surprising just how many people in Scotland cope with the idea of having multiple national identities, including Britishness. There are of course 'many people in Scotland' who reject the concept of Britishness, but it is quite offensive to be told, as I have been, that I can't really be Scottish if I say that I am Scottish and British.

 

[Howardh]

I'm "English", born in England and only distant great-grandparents were born elsewhere; yet whenever asked I explain "I'm British" and I don't think I've ever described myself as "English".

As for a Scottish/EU passport, if I've read the piece correctly, if I rent a flat a week before independence day, stay there for a fortnight, I'm entitled to a Scots passport?? Wow - yes please!!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

If Scotland becomes independent, would British passport holders or residents still have the right to work and live in Scotland or will it have to be an immigration process like everywhere else?

 

[Howardh]

If Scotland becomes independent, would British passport holders or residents still have the right to work and live in Scotland or will it have to be an immigration process like everywhere else?

As I understand, Scotland will (like Republic of Ireland) remain in the CTA so yes, the former is correct.

 

[Noddy]

...awaiting "Scotland is too small to be independent" in 5, 4, 3...

There are idiots on both sides of the debate. Baiting and encouraging them does little to aid the debate, spread understanding, or move towards solving issues.

 

[GS250]

Funnily enough in Skye most are quite apathetic about whether they are British, Scottish or Hebridean. However the thought of passport controls horrifies and delights them at the same time. The thought of having to flash their passport when they drive to their family in York appalls. Yet the thought of keeping the excess of tourists out doesn't sound so bad.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

As I understand, Scotland will (like Republic of Ireland) remain in the CTA so yes, the former is correct.

Thanks

 

[Cloud Strife]

If Scotland becomes independent, would British passport holders or residents still have the right to work and live in Scotland or will it have to be an immigration process like everywhere else?

The plan is that full FoM would be retained between Scotland, Ireland and the rUK. There's really no reason for the CTA to be abandoned unless the UK breaks up. Still, it's worth remembering that the CTA is not synonymous with freedom of movement, because even British citizens (except those with a connection) need work permits to work in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.

Funnily enough in Skye most are quite apathetic about whether they are British, Scottish or Hebridean. However the thought of passport controls horrifies and delights them at the same time. The thought of having to flash their passport when they drive to their family in York appalls. Yet the thought of keeping the excess of tourists out doesn't sound so bad.

Haha, I know one long time protester against the Skye Bridge tolls who always said that it would've been fine if the tolls stayed for 'them'.

Them, of course, being anyone from the mainland.

 

[Howardh]

The plan is that full FoM would be retained between Scotland, Ireland and the rUK. There's really no reason for the CTA to be abandoned unless the UK breaks up. Still, it's worth remembering that the CTA is not synonymous with freedom of movement, because even British citizens (except those with a connection) need work permits to work in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.

Probably the main reason they never joined the EU? I understand they were all in the Customs Union however.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well I for one am grateful for Humza Yousaf taking time out of his busy schedule to address the issues that really concern Scots; I used to lay awake at night worrying what colour our passports would be in an independent Scotland. Never mind health, education, transport, etc.