Scottish diesels in the 1980s Scotrail era.

[Richard Scott]

Interesting stuff. That actually leads me onto a different question…

Obviously some of the 27s were tired out after their Glasgow - Edinburgh shenanigans but there was still quite a fleet of other available 27s to choose from, so why did the lower powered and slightly older class 26s end up outlasting the 27s by a good few years?
Did the 26s have better electrical equipment maybe?

26s were Crompton Parkinson, arguably the best electrical equipment used in diesel electrics; probably why 45s (also CP) outlasted newer 46s (Brush electrical)) equipment) by quite a few years (know some 45s were ETH fitted but boiler fitted examples ran to the end so not an argument for 46s being withdrawn earlier than 45s). 27s had GEC electrical equipment which wasn't particularly resilient especially with lots of high speed running. 26s couldn't be used on Glasgow Edinburgh turns as their top speed was only 75 or 80mph I believe.

 

[randyrippley]

26s were Crompton Parkinson, arguably the best electrical equipment used in diesel electrics; probably why 45s (also CP) outlasted newer 46s (Brush electrical)) equipment) by quite a few years (know some 45s were ETH fitted but boiler fitted examples ran to the end so not an argument for 46s being withdrawn earlier than 45s). 27s had GEC electrical equipment which wasn't particularly resilient especially with lots of high speed running. 26s couldn't be used on Glasgow Edinburgh turns as their top speed was only 75 or 80mph I believe.

And don't forget some of the 26s got a major refurb / rebuild / life extension including (allegedly) engine transplants from scrapped late-model 25s. These were said to have been downrated to match the 26 power ratings, one past suggestion on here is that involved removing the intercooler

 

[Taunton]

In the 70s six was normally the maximum load to Mallaig, restricted by the length of the runround there. I note The Jacabite runs with 7 these days although whether this is due to a slight lengthening - e.g. a planned renewal in a slightly different position, or a tightening of the clearance allowances at either end of the loop I do not know. In earlier years the runround was longer as the tracks continued (as far as I recall ungated) over the public road and onto the pier, giving a longer runround. .

When the old ex-LNER observation car was run from Fort William to Mallaig, there was the need at Mallaig to get it off the rear on arrival, turned on the turntable, and reattached to now the rear for the return journey, which all will have needed quite a long headshunt beyond the end of the loop. There was no shunting loco at Mallaig, the train loco had to do it all. In steam days, when you had to turn that loco as well, I reckoned about 20 moves overall.

The tracks onto the pier were used periodically to shunt a few oil tankers there for refuelling the trawlers based there. I don't think in diesel times there was a separate freight service to Mallaig, so they went on the back of a passenger service, further load; vacuum braked tankers were thus required for this. One old tanker was left long term on the pier for pumping out sludge, or fuel contaminated by seawater, from maintenance on the trawlers, which was occasionally recovered to Grangemouth refinery for recycling.

Back to the 26/27 electrical gear, both types lasted well on very heavy duty turns, the former on the Highland, the latter initially on the West Highland, and then later on the Push-Pull as well. An Eastfield driver told me that both these very different uses from there, or even the Cowlairs banker, were driven mainly on the ammeter rather than by speed (which was of course very different between their two operations), keeping it just, but only just, short of the limit. St Rollox works must have been very good at rewinding generators and traction motors, and it was all a testament to original BRCW quality.

 

[D6130]

St Rollox works must have been very good at rewinding generators and traction motors, and it was all a testament to original BRCW quality.

They had to be....from the early 1970s onwards generator and traction motor fires - caused by both flashovers and oil contamination - became more and more frequent in both the push-pull and non-push-pull class 27s, sometimes resulting in catastrophic damage. It was always alleged that maintenance and cleaning standards at Eastfield - where the majority of the class 27s were based - were somewhat inferior to those at Inverness - where the majority of the class 26s were based. Presumably those at Haymarket - where the remainder of both classes were based - must have been somewhere in between.

 

[Iskra]

A bit tangential perhaps, but did Oban or Fort William ever have a London day train?

I think I may have read somewhere about through coaches, but can anyone clarify please?

 

[D6130]

A bit tangential perhaps, but did Oban or Fort William ever have a London day train?

I think I may have read somewhere about through coaches, but can anyone clarify please?

Not in diesel days....but maybe in the dim and distant past - inter-war years on the Oban line via Stirling perhaps? I'm not aware of there ever having been daytime through coaches between London and Fort William/Mallaig. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or otherwise?

 

[hexagon789]

I don't believe there were.

Inverness only got its day train with the introduction of the Clansman in May 1974, before that there was the long-running Euston-Perth and the Talisman(s) was/were extended at various points through to Perth in the 1950s. I think that was the furthest.

I believe even Aberdeen only got a through daytime service of its own, as opposed to through coaches, in the late-60s.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Not in diesel days....but maybe in the dim and distant past - inter-war years on the Oban line via Stirling perhaps? I'm not aware of there ever having been daytime through coaches between London and Fort William/Mallaig. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or otherwise?

Not aware of anything for Oban or fort William

 

[Cowley]

Not aware of anything for Oban or fort William

I guess in whatever era that would’ve been just too far for day coaches?

 

[hexagon789]

I guess in whatever era that would’ve been just too far for day coaches?

In 1921, a new through dervice between Aberdeen-Penzance was launched for the first time (sometimes in the 1930s only St Erth due to platform capacity at Penzance. It was a through coach which operated both ways attached to 4 different services (slightly different ones each way), the through coach was just an upgraded BCKLBS provided on alternating days by the NBR later LNER/GWR. The LNER provided a new build vehicle for the service in 1924 with 4-seat compartments in First; the GWR continued to provide old vehicles.

Outwards from Aberdeen at 9.30am, arriving Penzance 7.30am next day. Return from Penzance at 11am, arriving Aberdeen at 7.30am the next day.

Southbound the workings were:

9.30 Aberdeen-Edinburgh
1.50pm Edinburgh-King's Cross (to York)
6.25pm York-Swindon
10.0pm Paddington-Penzance (from Swindon)

Return was:

11.0am Penzance-Paddington (to Truro)
12.25pm Truro-Swindon
6.15pm Swindon-York
7.30pm King's Cross-Aberdeen (from York)

There was also usually a Glasgow-Penzance through coach, sometimes one also from York. Vans from Sheffield and Edinburgh to Plymouth or Penzance. The GWR often added its own vans for internal mileage only to save costs.

And in 1923, for a brief period, the LNER ran its own SLF from Aberdeen to Penzance. Which would have been much more comfortable for the up to 22 hour journey. (It was the longest peacetime through working in Britain, at 785 miles.)

There were so many other, albeit shorter, through coaches and cross-country services in this period. Though I understand that the true heyday of the through coach was immediately prior to the First World War.

 

[E27007]

Interesting stuff. That actually leads me onto a different question…

Obviously some of the 27s were tired out after their Glasgow - Edinburgh shenanigans but there was still quite a fleet of other available 27s to choose from, so why did the lower powered and slightly older class 26s end up outlasting the 27s by a good few years?
Did the 26s have better electrical equipment maybe?

I think it may have been the traction motor to wheelset gearing of the 26 being lower than the 27, due to the low gearing the 26 could pull hard from low speeds on lines to Kyle, Oban etc

 

[delt1c]

I think it may have been the traction motor to wheelset gearing of the 26 being lower than the 27, due to the low gearing the 26 could pull hard from low speeds on lines to Kyle, Oban etc

26’s weren’t used on Oban line that was 27’s. Where the 26 won was CP equipment and the lower power rating to the Sulzer engine which gave longer engine life

 

[Richard Scott]

26’s weren’t used on Oban line that was 27’s. Where the 26 won was CP equipment and the lower power rating to the Sulzer engine which gave longer engine life

CP equipment arguably the best electrical equipment of the early diesels.

 

[D6130]

26’s weren’t used on Oban line that was 27’s.

Although not diagrammed for the West Highland Lines, class 26s did occasionally appear, substituting for non-available 27s. I was hauled by 26 009 (HA) on the 17 55 Oban-Glasgow from Crianlarich one evening in the mid-1970s. @Cheshire Scot also has records of class 26 use when he was a guard at Fort William.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Although not diagrammed for the West Highland Lines, class 26s did occasionally appear, substituting for non-available 27s. I was hauled by 26 009 (HA) on the 17 55 Oban-Glasgow from Crianlarich one evening in the mid-1970s. @Cheshire Scot also has records of class 26 use when he was a guard at Fort William.

I think just one or possibly two instances in my time there, plus there is a published photo somewhere (mentioned in an earlier thread) of another instance.

I'm not sure how often Eastfield would actually have a class 26 on site to substitute for a failed 27, although there were freights to/from Inverness serving both Sighthill and Cadder which may well have been booked for class 26. Locos on Inverness passenger workings generally went straight back.

I also recall once seeing a 26 on the Glen Douglas trip although my recollection is this was a Mossend trip rather than Cadder although it may well have been Eastfield which provided the traction, and only slightly connected, the Faslane trip was a Cadder trip and usually a class 20 (Faslane was booked MWFO and Glen Douglas TThO (in different paths) although in reality days run for both could vary).

 

[Siemens Staines]

I saw a tiny number of 26s on WHL freights at Craigendoran

Tue 04/05/76 26008
Thu 30/09/76 26015

and 26037 on a date that I have not recorded, but it must have been in the Autumn of 1975.

As I recall, at the time I thought that these Tue & Thu lunch-time freights were from Faslane due to wagons loaded with what looked like scrap metal, but your comment suggests that these trains may have been from Glen Douglas?

 

[D6130]

I also recall once seeing a 26 on the Glen Douglas trip although my recollection is this was a Mossend trip rather than Cadder

So do I....but it was way back in the early Spring of 1973 (pre-TOPS renumbering) when I saw the Glen Douglas trip returning through Craigendoran during the school lunch hour behind another Haymarket-allocated loco, no. 5311. I think the Glen Douglas trip - N24 - worked to/from Mossend because most of the MOD traffic was worked to/from Carlisle and points further South.

and 26037 on a date that I have not recorded, but it must have been in the Autumn of 1975.

A rare Inverness-allocated example.

As I recall, at the time I thought that these Tue & Thu lunch-time freights were from Faslane due to wagons loaded with what looked like scrap metal, but your comment suggests that these trains may have been from Glen Douglas?

If there was a lot of scrap metal to be shifted from the shipbreaking yard at Faslane, it's trip (N18) did sometimes operate in the Glen Douglas path, if not required by the MOD. The MOD ammunition traffic was conveyed in vacuum-fitted vanfits (TOPS code VVV) in those days....and later in long-wheelbase air-braked vans (VDA).

 

[Strathclyder]

Another tangential query, but as it somewhat relates to this thread's main subject matter and I'm not 100% sure on the best sources to consult on the matter, I may as well ask it here.

I know that Class 40s were a feature of the Scottish railway landscape for many years as there is ample photographic evidence of it, but I'm curious: when were the last examples transferred south (if not withdrawn outright depending on the date)? Certainly, none were allocated to any Scottish depot by January 1985 as far as I know. I'd be curious as to what the answer ends up being either way, being something of a low-key Class 40 fanboy.

 

[Magdalia]

I know that Class 40s were a feature of the Scottish railway landscape for many years as there is ample photographic evidence of it, but I'm curious: when were the last examples transferred south (if not withdrawn outright depending on the date)?

October 1981. Effectively replaced by steam heat class 47s moving north that had themselves been displaced by the 47556-585 ETH conversions.

 

[Strathclyder]

October 1981. Effectively replaced by steam heat class 47s moving north that had themselves been displaced by the 47556-585 ETH conversions.

That squares, cheers for that. So the 40s are relevent to this thread, if only just. Perfect excuse to share these Flickr gems then (all copyright of Bill Atkinson).

19810629 Scan 1870 40056 1M69 Bardrill

40056 working 1M69 1100 PERTH - KENSINGTON OLYMPIA, Motorail, passes Bardrill on the 29th June 1981.

www.flickr.com

19810629 Scan2033 40013 2L35 Bardrill

40013 working 2L35 1044 GLASGOW QUEEN STREET - DUNDEE passes Bardrill on the 29th June 1981. Almost 'bowled' by 40056 on the up pax in the background !

www.flickr.com

19810626 Scan 1872 40167 1T35 Blackford

40167 working 1T35 1340 ABERDEEN - GLASGOW QUEEN STREET passes Blackford on the 26th June 1981.

www.flickr.com

Plus this atmospheric shot of 40181 at Glasgow Queen St on 26th November 1983, waiting to depart with the 22:38 to Dundee (copyright of Flickr's Lothian T).

40181

26/11/83

www.flickr.com

 

[Cheshire Scot]

That squares, cheers for that. So the 40s are relevent to this thread, if only just. Perfect excuse to share these Flickr gems then (all copyright of Bill Atkinson).

19810629 Scan 1870 40056 1M69 Bardrill

40056 working 1M69 1100 PERTH - KENSINGTON OLYMPIA, Motorail, passes Bardrill on the 29th June 1981.

www.flickr.com

If this is the Perth to Kensington Olympia Motorail it is certainly an unusual formation the first 7 vehicles on this are BSK then it looks like 6 x CK whereas seated accommodation on Motorails was generally all FKs and FOs plus a restaurant car. Perhaps a scratch set due to a problem somewhere although not many places could pull together that number of CKs from spare stock.

 

[Strathclyder]

If this is the Perth to Kensington Olympia Motorail it is certainly an unusual formation the first 7 vehicles on this are BSK then it looks like 6 x CK whereas seated accommodation on Motorails was generally all FKs and FOs plus a restaurant car. Perhaps a scratch set due to a problem somewhere although not many places could pull together that number of CKs from spare stock.

Thought I'd already replied to this.

I'd imagine it was most likely a scratch set due to an issue elsewhere, but as you say, not that many places could pull together a full train out of that many spare CKs. Though saying that, I'd rank Perth higher than most places on such a list.

 

[Cowley]

Back once again with the renegade diesels…

Do any of you EE experts know where I can get an idea of which split headcode IS (Inverness) based 37/0s might have been painted into the full large logo/black headcodes/snow ploughs variation in the 1980s please?

I’ve got 37025, but were there any other split box ones in that livery?

 

[SteveM70]

37114 was large logo and I had it down to Kyle in (I think) 1995

 

[Strathclyder]

Back once again with the renegade diesels…

Do any of you EE experts know where I can get an idea of which split headcode IS (Inverness) based 37/0s might have been painted into the full large logo/black headcodes/snow ploughs variation in the 1980s please?

I’ve got 37025, but were there any other split box ones in that livery?

She spent most of the 80s based at Eastfield (I nearly missed your 'Inverness-based' criteria until I re-read your post lol) and was likely painted during her time there, but 37011 did spend a period working out of Inverness after being repainted. There's a pic on Flickr of her at Aviemore looking fresh in Large Logo (complete with black/domino headcode boxes) on 1T20 (09:20 Inverness - Glasgow Queen St) dating from 17th August 1985 (from the Roddy McPhee photostream). He also has one of her at Forres on 28th July 1986 working 1H31 (13:35 Aberdeen - Inverness).

37011 Aviemore

37011 at Aviemore 17/08/85 1T20 0920 Inverness - Glasgow Queen St. Photo courtesy (c) StevenH.

www.flickr.com

37011 Forres

37011 at Forres 28/07/86 1H31 1335 Aberdeen - Inverness

www.flickr.com

Pictures of her in Large Logo aren't as common as most of her contemporaries, as after transferring back south to Eastfield, she was withdrawn after running into a pair of Class 303 EMUs at Singer which had run away from Westerton in early 1987 (withdrawn in August that year, cut up in August 1989).

 

[12LDA28C]

Back once again with the renegade diesels…

Do any of you EE experts know where I can get an idea of which split headcode IS (Inverness) based 37/0s might have been painted into the full large logo/black headcodes/snow ploughs variation in the 1980s please?

I’ve got 37025, but were there any other split box ones in that livery?

37021 was certainly large logo at IS complete with Highland Rail sticker but it might not have gained ploughs until transfer to ED

 

[Davester50]

Regarding the motif I love trying to dig stuff up like this. Not sure how wide ranging it was on the 27's but the very loco that model is based on here can be seen here in a poor state.

27032

27032 at Thornton Yard 1987

flic.kr

27049

27049 at Inverness

Class 27 No.27049 on shed at Inverness on 4th May 1985.New as D5388 to 14A Cricklewood on 2nd June 1962 and under TOPS became 27105 in April 1974 and finally 27049 on 17th August 1983.She was withdrawn on 27th April 1987 and cut up at V.Berry,Leicester by 13th March 1988 after being in the...

flic.kr

27008

27008 Inverness

27008 Inverness 04/04/85

flic.kr

It doesn't appear that there were that many from this brief search though.

And it’s got a stag on it. Good work @Darandio!

I still wonder if it’s a one off though? I might have to go and consult a few old Platform 5 ned books in a bit and see what was allocated to where.
I do remember a few of the 27s had Haymarket Castle emblems on the side in the 1980s and I think some of the Eastfield ones had little Westies possibly?

Now, the one I do remember in particular was 27052 at the Perth Rail Fair as it had freshly applied yellow stags.
I remember it as the redundant backing film was still in the cab, along with one spare, which my brother may or may not have acquired...

27052 at Perth Rail Fair by Roddy MacPhee

Picture of 27052 with cabside stag.

 

[Magdalia]

Back once again with the renegade diesels…

Do any of you EE experts know where I can get an idea of which split headcode IS (Inverness) based 37/0s might have been painted into the full large logo/black headcodes/snow ploughs variation in the 1980s please?

I’ve got 37025, but were there any other split box ones in that livery?

37114 was large logo and I had it down to Kyle in (I think) 1995

37025 and 37114 are your main candidates. They were at Inverness through the period of steam heat class 37s on the Far North and Kyle lines.

But 37114 is tricky because it had various other embellishments at various times such as a grey roof and red buffer beams. It appears to have been the Inverness favourite for special duties.

37114 Inverness

Ex works, well ex depot. Having come out of Inverness depots paint shop that morning. Shunts fuel tanks round the depot on the 31st July 1984

www.flickr.com

37114 Inverness​

Ex works, well ex depot. Having come out of Inverness depots paint shop that morning. Shunts fuel tanks round the depot on the 31st July 1984​

37035 was also at Inverness but had plated over gangway doors and yellow headcodes.

37035 Inverness 37BR417[2]

Explore duff876's 183842 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

37035 Inverness

The other Inverness long term resident class 37s in this period were centre panel, 37183, 37260, 37261 and 37262.

Various other locos were at Inverness but only for brief periods.

37021 was certainly large logo at IS complete with Highland Rail sticker but it might not have gained ploughs until transfer to ED

37021 was blue and East Anglian between 1982 and May 1985. I think that 37021 did reach the full large logo/black boxes, ploughs variation before departing Inverness in 1986, but it would have been only for a very brief period in winter 1985/86.

 

[Gaz67]

Back once again with the renegade diesels…

Do any of you EE experts know where I can get an idea of which split headcode IS (Inverness) based 37/0s might have been painted into the full large logo/black headcodes/snow ploughs variation in the 1980s please?

I’ve got 37025, but were there any other split box ones in that livery?

114 definitely , did a freedom of Scotland in 85 and this was out all week, maybe add more to this later if I find my pics,035 rings a bell.

 

[Cowley]

114 definitely , did a freedom of Scotland in 85 and this was out all week, maybe add more to this later if I find my pics,035 rings a bell.

37114 was large logo and I had it down to Kyle in (I think) 1995

That’s useful, thanks both.

37025 and 37114 are your main candidates. They were at Inverness through the period of steam heat class 37s on the Far North and Kyle lines.

But 37114 is tricky because it had various other embellishments at various times such as a grey roof and red buffer beams. It appears to have been the Inverness favourite for special duties.

37114 Inverness

Ex works, well ex depot. Having come out of Inverness depots paint shop that morning. Shunts fuel tanks round the depot on the 31st July 1984

www.flickr.com

37035 was also at Inverness but had plated over gangway doors and yellow headcodes.

37035 Inverness 37BR417[2]

Explore duff876's 183842 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

The other Inverness long term resident class 37s in this period were centre panel, 37183, 37260, 37261 and 37262.

Various other locos were at Inverness but only for brief periods.


37021 was blue and East Anglian between 1982 and May 1985. I think that 37021 did reach the full large logo/black boxes, ploughs variation before departing Inverness in 1986, but it would have been only for a very brief period in winter 1985/86.

And again, thanks @Magdalia. I must admit that I’d always associated that livery with the batch of IS based centre headcode ones.

She spent most of the 80s based at Eastfield (I nearly missed your 'Inverness-based' criteria until I re-read your post lol) and was likely painted during her time there, but 37011 did spend a period working out of Inverness after being repainted. There's a pic on Flickr of her at Aviemore looking fresh in Large Logo (complete with black/domino headcode boxes) on 1T20 (09:20 Inverness - Glasgow Queen St) dating from 17th August 1985 (from the Roddy McPhee photostream). He also has one of her at Forres on 28th July 1986 working 1H31 (13:35 Aberdeen - Inverness).

37011 Aviemore

37011 at Aviemore 17/08/85 1T20 0920 Inverness - Glasgow Queen St. Photo courtesy (c) StevenH.

www.flickr.com

37011 Forres

37011 at Forres 28/07/86 1H31 1335 Aberdeen - Inverness

www.flickr.com

Pictures of her in Large Logo aren't as common as most of her contemporaries, as after transferring back south to Eastfield, she was withdrawn after running into a pair of Class 303 EMUs at Singer which had run away from Westerton in early 1987 (withdrawn in August that year, cut up in August 1989).

37011 was one that I didn’t realise. Thanks for finding that.

37021 was certainly large logo at IS complete with Highland Rail sticker but it might not have gained ploughs until transfer to ED

I’ve just found a photo of that one without ploughs but with the Highland Rail stickers as you say:

37021 SLK @ Dundee Tay Bridge

Inverness allocated loco's could appear anywhere in Scotland. 37021 works the 'core' speedlink service from Tay Bridge to Mossend. This was Diagrammed for a Eastfield 27 at that time, so I wasn't too pleased at the time. However, the passing of years make it one of my better ScR 37 shots.

www.flickr.com

Very helpful as always everyone!