Scunthorpe Steelworks - manufacture of steel rails

[john prytherch]

UK takes control of British Steel under emergency powers

Business Secretary Jonathan Reynolds says nationalisation is "likely" next step as Parliament rushes law through.

www.bbc.com

The government remains hopeful it can secure private investment to save the loss-making plant, but ministers concede there are currently no companies willing to make an offer.

In the Commons, Reynolds acknowledged that public ownership was "the likely option".

This is just to confess my ignorance on a most basic point, which I am sure Forum members will be able to clarify.

Is a blast furnace (however heated) essential to the making of rails? Does the entire rail industry depend on at least one being available and in working order?

 

[stuartl]

A blast furnace produces pig iron from iron ore , this is then procesed into steel for rails etc. So you don't acually need one to make steel rails, just a supply of iron in some form. The one's at Port Talbot are going to be replaced with electric arc furnaces whose raw material is mostly scrap steel.

 

[WAO]

The problem with scrap iron is its mixed chemical constituents, which contaminate and spoil the properties of the steel then produced (an alloy of iron and small but important amounts of other elements). It is often from crudely scrapped items, mixed with other metals etc. That's why you often need new cast iron from reduction of iron ore. As few elements have more affinity for oxygen than carbon, that's why it's used to recover elemental iron.

Just another inconvenient truth for the zero Carbon lobby.

WAO

 

[Bald Rick]

Rails are made from the steel made at Scunthorpe, and (usually) the steel from Electric Arc Furnaces is not of high enough quality for rails.

If Scunthorpe shuts, the steel for UK rails will come from abroad. Indeed it would be likely that they would come as finished rails, most likely from Hayange in France.

 

[Bryson]

Rails are made from the steel made at Scunthorpe, and (usually) the steel from Electric Arc Furnaces is not of high enough quality for rails.

If Scunthorpe shuts, the steel for UK rails will come from abroad. Indeed it would be likely that they would come as finished rails, most likely from Hayange in France.

Hayange doesn't have any furnaces of any type, they bring in the billets from Ascoval at Saint-Saulve. Ascoval use electric arc melting.

 

[stuartl]

Network rail are already testing EAF produced rails.
https://www.londonreconnections.com...al-batch-of-green-steel-rails-railwaygazette/
Also this from British Steel
https://britishsteel.co.uk/news/ele...oduce-all-steel-products-and-grades-uk-steel/

 

[Bald Rick]

Hayange doesn't have any furnaces of any type, they bring in the billets from Ascoval at Saint-Saulve. Ascoval use electric arc melting.

I didnt say they did!

 

[Bryson]

I didnt say they did!

My point was regarding the EAF. Plenty of rails are made around the world using arc melted steel.

 

[Gostav]

For make steels that require special materials, such as manganese steel for turnouts, they may need to be imported entirely in the future.

 

[Bald Rick]

My point was regarding the EAF. Plenty of rails are made around the world using arc melted steel.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Class15]

Rails are made from the steel made at Scunthorpe, and (usually) the steel from Electric Arc Furnaces is not of high enough quality for rails.

If Scunthorpe shuts, the steel for UK rails will come from abroad. Indeed it would be likely that they would come as finished rails, most likely from Hayange in France.

Would this come by rail out of interest?

 

[Bald Rick]

Would this come by rail out of interest?

almost certainly. some already does (or at least did), albeit the other way!

 

[hwl]

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Virtaully all US rail has been for the last two decades.

And plenty of rail wheels / axles too e.g. Luccihini from EAF in the factory on the website landing page in Sebino:

Lucchini RS - Railway, forging and casting steel products manufacturer

We develop and supply forged steel solutions for railway market such as Wheel, Axle, Wheelset, Tyre - Lucchini RS

lucchinirs.com

Steel from EAF can be used for low quality purposes with no post processing afterwards unlike pig iron that comes out of a blast furnace (hence the start of wide spread repeated confusion) or for middle and high end you need to post process e.g. Vacuum Arc Degassing (VAD), Vacuum Oxygen Decarburisation (VOD) and other Vacuum based processes that are equivalent to the later stage BOS processes in traditional steel making. The misinformation about EAF come from people not knowing about the post processing or deliberately ignoring it because they have other agendas.
The steel unions in the UK have generally been very against EAF until very recently as it meant much lower employment levels and lower union membership to the extent of even getting successive governments of different colours to be pro-blast furnace and anti-EAF until recent years.

As an example of what is possible with EAF - Sheffield Forgemasters moved to EAF and using recycled steel in 1968 and have made lots of reactor parts including the RN sub reactor pressure vessels, large power station alternator shafts, the Iraq super gun and lots of artillery barrels at the moment in the 57 years since then. All of what they make is post processed...

It would still be wise to retain 1 blast furnace for a while though.

For make steels that require special materials, such as manganese steel for turnouts, they may need to be imported entirely in the future.

Why? You do realise that the preferred way of making Manganese/Mangalloy/Hadfield Steel **including in the UK** has been EAF for decades? E.g. Progress Rail (formerly Edgar Allen) and until recently NR's largest supplier of Manganese Steel products has two EAFs at its South Queensferry foundry for making Managanese Steel.

 

[WAO]

It would still be wise to retain 1 blast furnace for a while though.

Yes - but there will always be a need for newly smelted iron as a feed as recycled steel, often imported, will diminish in availability.

It would be better if more careful scrapping took place. Consider a crushed car, or railway carriage - Steel, Aluminium alloy and Copper all mixed.

Chemistry is not that easy to alter in molten steel.

The risk to us is broken rails and rolling contact fatigue.

WAO

 

[Magdalia]

Interesting and informative discussion, thanks to those who have contributed so far.

But I'm still not clear whether there really are some sorts of steel that can only be produced (cost effectively?) by a blast furnace and not an electric arc furnace? Is this a matter of opinion, based on costs, or a matter of fact, based on technology? And is technology advancing so that the question might have a different answer in, say, 10 years time?

Furthermore, is the UK really improving its resilience by retaining a blast furnace when it no longer has a domestic supply of the main raw materials iron ore and coal? At least we do have a domestic supply of scrap metal.

 

[unlevel42]

Virtaully all US rail has been for the last two decades.

And plenty of rail wheels / axles too e.g. Luccihini from EAF in the factory on the website landing page in Sebino:

Lucchini RS - Railway, forging and casting steel products manufacturer

We develop and supply forged steel solutions for railway market such as Wheel, Axle, Wheelset, Tyre - Lucchini RS

lucchinirs.com

Steel from EAF can be used for low quality purposes with no post processing afterwards unlike pig iron that comes out of a blast furnace (hence the start of wide spread repeated confusion) or for middle and high end you need to post process e.g. Vacuum Arc Degassing (VAD), Vacuum Oxygen Decarburisation (VOD) and other Vacuum based processes that are equivalent to the later stage BOS processes in traditional steel making. The misinformation about EAF come from people not knowing about the post processing or deliberately ignoring it because they have other agendas.
The steel unions in the UK have generally been very against EAF until very recently as it meant much lower employment levels and lower union membership to the extent of even getting successive governments of different colours to be pro-blast furnace and anti-EAF until recent years.

As an example of what is possible with EAF - Sheffield Forgemasters moved to EAF and using recycled steel in 1968 and have made lots of reactor parts including the RN sub reactor pressure vessels, large power station alternator shafts, the Iraq super gun and lots of artillery barrels at the moment in the 57 years since then. All of what they make is post processed...

It would still be wise to retain 1 blast furnace for a while though.


Why? You do realise that the preferred way of making Manganese/Mangalloy/Hadfield Steel **including in the UK** has been EAF for decades? E.g. Progress Rail (formerly Edgar Allen) and until recently NR's largest supplier of Manganese Steel products has two EAFs at its South Queensferry foundry for making Managanese Steel.

The turn-outs that I worked on for Edgar Allen on Shepcote Lane in Sheffield in the late 1970's are still in use. Am I the only 'turn out' spotter? The are all stamped and dated.
At that time they were all EAF products but not scrap. Most of the charge was from BSC Tinsley Park (Special Steels) just up the road which had 2 X 120 tonne EAF's other additives including manganese were added.
Although care is taken over the quality of the scrap being used any high quality steel needs a higher percentage 'virgin' steel as it was impossible to remove certain influential elements especially copper.
When I worked in their rolling mills, no track was rolled but the our EAF's supplied Distington in Cumbria.

 

[hwl]

Yes - but there will always be a need for newly smelted iron as a feed as recycled steel, often imported, will diminish in availability.

It would be better if more careful scrapping took place. Consider a crushed car, or railway carriage - Steel, Aluminium alloy and Copper all mixed.

Chemistry is not that easy to alter in molten steel.

The risk to us is broken rails and rolling contact fatigue.

WAO

UK steel production (pre recent Port Talbot changes) was 5-7M tonnes p.a.
Total UK Scrap steel was average 10-11M tonnes annually for while.
Scrap Steel exported from the UK is circa 8M tonnes annually. I.e. there is plenty of scrap were could stop/greatly reduce exporting (including lots of scrap from rolling stock via Newport).

The speciality end of UK steel industry has long been calling for scrap export restrictions like there often are in mainland Europe.

As other have already said copper is the main issue, most of the rest can be dealt with. Everyone in the scrap industry in the UK will needs to become a bit better at separating. Luccihini for example insist on uncrushed being delivered so they can carefully sort to ensure no copper.

The turn-outs that I worked on for Edgar Allen on Shepcote Lane in Sheffield in the late 1970's are still in use. Am I the only 'turn out' spotter? The are all stamped and dated.
At that time they were all EAF products but not scrap. Most of the charge was from BSC Tinsley Park (Special Steels) just up the road which had 2 X 120 tonne EAF's other additives including manganese were added.
Although care is taken over the quality of the scrap being used any high quality steel needs a higher percentage 'virgin' steel as it was impossible to remove certain influential elements especially copper.
When I worked in their rolling mills, no track was rolled but the our EAF's supplied Distington in Cumbria.

Marcegalia (ex BS Stainless) in Tinsley currently use >90% scrap for their EAF stainless production.

(You aren't the only turn out spotter)


**New Post**

The text of the draft bill:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/67f9765004146682e61bc8ae/draft_steel_industry_special_measures_bill.pdf

It does just cover Scunthorpe but other future potential steel nationalisations too.

 

[childwallblues]

Does British Steel own any other assets besides Scunthorpe Steel Works?

 

[Class 170101]

Feels a bit deeper than just 'nationalising' a steel plant to make some rails for the British Railways or possible future construction at Heathrow or Luton Airports. Steel can be used to make many things, some constructive, some destructive....

 

[Bryson]

Does British Steel own any other assets besides Scunthorpe Steel Works?

Yes, they have mills at Lackenby, Teesside and at Skinningrove. Lackenby (TBM) rolls heavy beams. Skinningrove rolls large special sections.

Neither of those sites have steel making, instead they bring material in from Scunthorpe.

Jingye had plans to install an arc furnace at Lackenby but I guess this will be on hold now.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure this whole mess is about more than the government not wanting to be remembered as the one that 'killed the steel industry'.

The Scunthorpe plant is ancient, polluting and highly dependent on imported ores and other such materials.
Despite apparently employing two thousand staff the furnaces produce only around two million tonnes of iron a year.

If reliance on imported ore is acceptable, a modern gas fired (which has a domestic supply unlike metallurgical coke) direct reduction plant can do it with under two hundred.

Personally, I don't think facility is a significant defence asset due to largely unfixable dependence on imported coke, imported iron ore (domestic ore required specialised gear) and imported furnace refractories.

If we can import ore, we can import iron. A tonne of pig iron or Hot briquetted iron is way more valuable to defence manufacturing than a tonne of ore or coke.

 

[Class 170101]

Personally, I don't think facility is a significant defence asset due to largely unfixable dependence on imported coke,

Wasn't a coke mine proposed in the North West of England that would have solved that problem?

(Yes I know it was cancelled due to evironmental concerns)

 

[AndrewE]

I'm not sure this whole mess is about more than the government not wanting to be remembered as the one that 'killed the steel industry'.

The Scunthorpe plant is ancient, polluting and highly dependent on imported ores and other such materials.
Despite apparently employing two thousand staff the furnaces produce only around two million tonnes of iron a year.

If reliance on imported ore is acceptable, a modern gas fired (which has a domestic supply unlike metallurgical coke) direct reduction plant can do it with under two hundred.

Personally, I don't think facility is a significant defence asset due to largely unfixable dependence on imported coke, imported iron ore (domestic ore required specialised gear) and imported furnace refractories.

If we can import ore, we can import iron. A tonne of pig iron or Hot briquetted iron is way more valuable to defence manufacturing than a tonne of ore or coke.

There was an interesting interview with a Union spokesperson on R4 early this morning, she said that when Jingye closed the Scunthorpe coke ovens they promised to procure suitable coke to keep the blast furnaces working... instead (she said) they have been receiving completely unsuitable stuff from China which has drastically impacted the quantity and quality of their output, hinted at it jeopardising the actual functioning of the funaces.

 

[Class 170101]

There was an interesting interview with a Union spokesperson on R4 early this morning, she said that when Jingye closed the Scunthorpe coke ovens they promised to procure suitable coke to keep the blast furnaces working... instead (she said) they have been receiving completely unsuitable stuff from China which has drastically impacted the quantity and quality of their output, hinted at it jeopardising the actual functioning of the funaces.

Is that purely a Chinese problem though? Haven't we heard about issues concerning steam locomotives and the 'wrong type' of coal since Welsh coal ceased? Are our furnaces set up correctly to burn the stuff from abroad?

 

[AndrewE]

Is that purely a Chinese problem though? Haven't we heard about issues concerning steam locomotives and the 'wrong type' of coal since Welsh coal ceased? Are our furnaces set up correctly to burn the stuff from abroad?

It's not a Chinese problem. The precise analysis of coal suitable for making metallurgical coke has probably been known for 150 years now, and to send shiploads of crap coke to the UK, handicapping Scunthorpe, is absolutely indefensible.

UK would be better off procuring suitable coal from wherever (easy to let a contract against a spec) and coking it on site - if only Jinhgye hadn't shut the coking ovens.

 

[HSTEd]

Wasn't a coke mine proposed in the North West of England that would have solved that problem?

(Yes I know it was cancelled due to evironmental concerns)

That mine could potentially have provided metallurgical coal, but we would have to build new coke ovens to convert it into coke that could be fed to the furnaces.

Given the small output of the remaining furnaces, fixing this would likely cost almost as much as a new direct reduction ironworks. Single modern blast furnaces exist with double the output of the pair at Scunthorpe combined.

There was an interesting interview with a Union spokesperson on R4 early this morning, she said that when Jingye closed the Scunthorpe coke ovens they promised to procure suitable coke to keep the blast furnaces working... instead (she said) they have been receiving completely unsuitable stuff from China which has drastically impacted the quantity and quality of their output, hinted at it jeopardising the actual functioning of the funaces.

I have no confidential/priviledged knowledge, but I could well believe that Jingye bought coke that would be acceptable in a modern Chinese furnace but which is unsuitable for Scunthorpe.

After all, modern furnaces are fitted with far more sophisticated process controls than furnaces of the vintage of Scunthorpe

 

[I'm here now]

I'm not sure this whole mess is about more than the government not wanting to be remembered as the one that 'killed the steel industry'.

The Scunthorpe plant is ancient, polluting and highly dependent on imported ores and other such materials.
Despite apparently employing two thousand staff the furnaces produce only around two million tonnes of iron a year.

If reliance on imported ore is acceptable, a modern gas fired (which has a domestic supply unlike metallurgical coke) direct reduction plant can do it with under two hundred.

Personally, I don't think facility is a significant defence asset due to largely unfixable dependence on imported coke, imported iron ore (domestic ore required specialised gear) and imported furnace refractories.

If we can import ore, we can import iron. A tonne of pig iron or Hot briquetted iron is way more valuable to defence manufacturing than a tonne of ore or coke.

Couldn’t Scunthorpe be converted to hydrogen operations?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Coking coal is still required to produce the highest quality steel - not only does it provide the heat but it reacts with the molten pig iron to remove impurities. It is also more energy efficient to have an integrated works so that rails etc can be rolled straight away without being reheated on another site.

 

[superkev]

Wasn't a coke mine proposed in the North West of England that would have solved that problem?

(Yes I know it was cancelled due to evironmental concerns)

I supect that when Labours Angela Raynor blocked the coking coal mine in Cumbria resulting in the coking plant being shut down she didn't understand it would probably doom Scunthorpe.
Personal view.
K

 

[HSTEd]

Couldn’t Scunthorpe be converted to hydrogen operations?

Attempting to operate a blast furnace without coke would require enormous amounts of supplementary heating.

Reduction of iron oxide with carbon and carbon monoxide is exothermic (it releases heat). Reduction of iron oxide with hydrogen is endothermic (it absorbs heat ).

I think you could probably make it work but it'd be cheaper to build a direct reduction ironworks