SE High Speed via Faversham

[mike_transport]

Does The North Kent Mainline via Faversham really need a high speed. I have worked out that on most stations it only would have saved 3-15 Minutes. Is there any point of there being high speed via Faversham let me know your thoughts

 

[Bungle73]

Yes. Those trains are well used, plus it provides a connection to Kings' Cross and St. Pancras without having to cross central London on the Tube.

 

[Horizon22]

Does The North Kent Mainline via Faversham really need a high speed. I have worked out that on most stations it only would have saved 3-15 Minutes. Is there any point of there being high speed via Faversham let me know your thoughts

The line is there and the connection and capacity exists so why wouldn't you. What would it be replaced with?

Save only 3-15 minutes? Really? Somewhere like Gravesend must be a considerable saving versus an all stations stopper.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's not really a High Speed service but it was part of the political wrangling when HS1 was being built that various stations in Kent would get nice pointy ended trains. The service structure now treats them as an integral part of the timetable so removing them would create all sorts of gaps in the timetable that can't be replaced with Electrostars. Interestingly regarding @Bungle73 's point, I remember when the service changes were being trailed pre-2009 there was a lot of resistance Victoria trains being thinned out to allow for St Pancras paths to be created on the basis that 'no-one wants to go there and end up on the wrong side of London'. But of course once it was established people began to find it quite useful.

 

[DanNCL]

Gravesend is the primary beneficiary of this service. Rochester eastwards it saves little time vs the Chatham Main Line into Victoria unless you're travelling to somwhere near St Pancras or need to connect onto a train heading to the Midlands, North of England or Scotland.

 

[mike_transport]

The line is there and the connection and capacity exists so why wouldn't you. What would it be replaced with?

Save only 3-15 minutes? Really? Somewhere like Gravesend must be a considerable saving versus an all stations stopper.

Ebbsfleet International is right next to Gravesend. The High Speed is also a lot more expensive then standard trains.

 

[Horizon22]

Ebbsfleet International is right next to Gravesend. The High Speed is also a lot more expensive then standard trains.

"Right next to". It might be geographically close, but I'd dare you to try and walk there from the suburbs of Gravesend. There's not even a walking route between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet (although often speculated).

I'm not sure what the point of a lot more expensive is; yes indeed it is, but it is a faster, premimum service. If you want cheap, you take all shacks stopped to Charing Cross or change off the Thameslink service at Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line.

 

[DanNCL]

Ebbsfleet International is right next to Gravesend. The High Speed is also a lot more expensive then standard trains.

That's like saying Alnmouth is 'right next to' Alnwick. It's far enough that people wouldn't use it, they'd instead drive their whole journey.

Gravesend is only served by HS1 with a service to the main station, which is exactly what the Faversham service provides.

 

[CFRAIL]

I've often thought it a little pointless, running 225kph stock on standard lines... a Gillingham/Rochester to St Pancras service would make (IMO) more sense

 

[Bungle73]

I've often thought it a little pointless, running 225kph stock on standard lines... a Gillingham/Rochester to St Pancras service would make (IMO) more sense

But that would miss out my local station.

 

[43066]

I've often thought it a little pointless, running 225kph stock on standard lines... a Gillingham/Rochester to St Pancras service would make (IMO) more sense

The North Kent line Javelins stop at those before joining HS1 near Ebbsfleet, unless you’re saying standard non HS stock should run into St Pancras?

 

[AM9]

I've often thought it a little pointless, running 225kph stock on standard lines... a Gillingham/Rochester to St Pancras service would make (IMO) more sense

Over time the new route from North Kent to North central London will result in more central London workers considering moving to Kent, much like the Lizzy did for closer in areas. The fact that they are 225km/h trains allows the dash to Ebbsfleet doesn't make much difference as they are electric and (presumbly) have regen capability on DC. The fact that passengers aren't being carried across Lewisham or the rat's nest of junctions in south London is a benefit to passengers on the HS1 trains as well as all the other SE/Southern services that share those bottlenecks.
If anybody here knows how well their loadings are that would be useful to see how much of a deterrent the higher season ticket prices. As for leisure travel, they certainly seem to be quite successful, even though the passengers are paying the full fare.

 

[STINT47]

Looking at the timetables for a trip to Rochester, from Victoria it takes 40 minuets and from St Pancras 37.

Given the small difference in journey time I think most people would only choose high speed if they want to reach the Stratford or St Pancras areas.

I think this is reflected in the actions of Southeastern. St Pancras to Faversham used to be half hourly but now the off peak service is hourly. By contrast the service to Ashford has remained half hourly.

If Southeastern ever restored limited stop services then the case for high speed would be even weaker on both routes. I've always felt that the high speed service is overrated given that classic line trains were slowed down wirh extra stops to get people to use high speed and pay the premium for it

 

[cle]

Could the line (speed) between Dartford and Rochester be improved? Specially east of Ebbsfleet, but also thinking about a future Crossrail or for today's trains in general, as that stretch is painfully slow.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Whenever I catch (off peak, weekdays) St P trains to/from Medway, they’re always well filled, with a fair number travelling between Kent/Stratford too. London-bound I find it unusual to get a pair of seats free at Strood, and last time I was asking people to move their bags.
Not massive scope for speeding up the 70mph linespeed though, with a stop and 30 through Gravesend, and the slightly crumbly Higham and Strood tunnels

 

[43066]

Could the line (speed) between Dartford and Rochester be improved? Specially east of Ebbsfleet, but also thinking about a future Crossrail or for today's trains in general, as that stretch is painfully slow.

Quite doubtful.

A fair bit of it is 70mph from memory, but slow (30) through Gravesend, then very slow (15) around the curve to Strood, then another steep steep curve up Toomer Loop onto the bridge across the Medway.

 

[mike_transport]

It’s not really high speed is it for most of the journey.

 

[43066]

It’s not really high speed is it for most of the journey.

No, but the idea wasn’t ever to only run the Javelins from Ashford and Ebbsfleet.

They have pretty limited stopping patterns on the classic lines. The crawl through Medway is somewhat painful but they now have a choice of quick connections to either Victoria via the Chatham lines or St Pancras via the North Kent then HS1.

 

[PTR 444]

The HS1 Kent service is now very well established so removing it would cause a lot of uproar, but I can see some sort of premise of this thread. It seems a bit unfair that Kent, a county whose furthest point is less than 75 miles from Charing Cross has a dedicated high-speed service while further away places like Weymouth, Exeter and Plymouth are still over two hours away from London, with barely any journey time improvements in the pipeline.

 

[AM9]

Looking at the timetables for a trip to Rochester, from Victoria it takes 40 minuets and from St Pancras 37.

Given the small difference in journey time I think most people would only choose high speed if they want to reach the Stratford or St Pancras areas.

I think this is reflected in the actions of Southeastern. St Pancras to Faversham used to be half hourly but now the off peak service is hourly. By contrast the service to Ashford has remained half hourly.

If Southeastern ever restored limited stop services then the case for high speed would be even weaker on both routes. I've always felt that the high speed service is overrated given that classic line trains were slowed down wirh extra stops to get people to use high speed and pay the premium for it

But increasingly, St Pancras might become more convenient for workplaces than Victoria in the future, e.g. The Old Street 'Silicon Roundabout'.

 

[Horizon22]

Looking at the timetables for a trip to Rochester, from Victoria it takes 40 minuets and from St Pancras 37.

Given the small difference in journey time I think most people would only choose high speed if they want to reach the Stratford or St Pancras areas.

I think this is reflected in the actions of Southeastern. St Pancras to Faversham used to be half hourly but now the off peak service is hourly. By contrast the service to Ashford has remained half hourly.

If Southeastern ever restored limited stop services then the case for high speed would be even weaker on both routes. I've always felt that the high speed service is overrated given that classic line trains were slowed down wirh extra stops to get people to use high speed and pay the premium for it

The track access charges are also significantly higher for HS1, which no doubt plays a part especially now.

The HS1 Kent service is now very well established so removing it would cause a lot of uproar, but I can see some sort of premise of this thread. It seems a bit unfair that Kent, a county whose furthest point is less than 75 miles from Charing Cross has a dedicated high-speed service while further away places like Weymouth, Exeter and Plymouth are still over two hours away from London, with barely any journey time improvements in the pipeline.

I mean it helps that Kent happens to be the closest county to mainland Europe, which is really the primary cause of that high-speed service existing.

 

[PTR 444]

I mean it helps that Kent happens to be the closest county to mainland Europe, which is really the primary cause of that high-speed service existing.

By contrast, Birmingham and Manchester is the primary case for HS2 existing, and it’s not as if Coventry, Milton Keynes or Aylesbury will be getting a connection to it.

 

[Horizon22]

By contrast, Birmingham and Manchester is the primary case for HS2 existing, and it’s not as if Coventry, Milton Keynes or Aylesbury will be getting a connection to it.

And Manchester and Birmingham are substantially bigger. Ashford was integrated into the classic network from the very start and also was a substantial driver in the growth of the area - it used to be not much more than a large village. Of course HS1 only latterly went on dedicated tracks too.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not really high speed is it for most of the journey.

That depends on your definition of ‘most’ and ‘journey’.

Anywhere from Sittingbourne inwards, most of the journey is high speed. And because it is high speed, it is much quicker for that part.

 

[cle]

But increasingly, St Pancras might become more convenient for workplaces than Victoria in the future, e.g. The Old Street 'Silicon Roundabout'.

Doesn't even need to be as far as that, and it's happened already. Heard of Google? FB, Havas. LVMH... The Guardian? Plus UCL and its hospitals? A ton of other new offices, hotels etc all around there too. Plus walkable to parts of Bloomsbury, Fitzrovia, Camden and so forth. It's a destination of note by itself - but yes, also very convenient for Angel and down to Old St / Moorgate.

Not to mention, all connections north.

To gripe that Kent has been bestowed something for itself that no-one else has is laughable. It is pure fortune of its geography, and spare capacity.

 

[43066]

The HS1 Kent service is now very well established so removing it would cause a lot of uproar, but I can see some sort of premise of this thread. It seems a bit unfair that Kent, a county whose furthest point is less than 75 miles from Charing Cross has a dedicated high-speed service while further away places like Weymouth, Exeter and Plymouth are still over two hours away from London, with barely any journey time improvements in the pipeline.

But it’s not as if HS1 domestic services being taken away from Kent would improve those areas.

It has been hugely beneficial to Ashford and surrounds and there has been *a lot* of house building in that area, in what was previously a pretty remote part of Kent given the distance from London.

I mean it helps that Kent happens to be the closest county to mainland Europe, which is really the primary cause of that high-speed service existing.

Exactly. Primarily HS1 was built for travel between London and Europe. The SE Javelins are an additional “nice to have”, which have grown in importance. This is especially true given that the expected trains from Germany etc. haven’t materialised, Eurostar have barely served Ashford for years (and never served Ebbsfleet or Stratford!), and the utilisation of the line by international trains is quite low.

In fact, if the Javelins weren’t there, the whole thing would probably look like something of a white elephant!

 

[Horizon22]

But it’s not as if HS1 domestic services being taken away from Kent would improve those areas.

It has been hugely beneficial to Ashford and surrounds and there has been *a lot* of house building in that area, in what was previously a pretty remote part of Kent given the distance from London.



Exactly. Primarily HS1 was built for travel between London and Europe. The SE Javelins are an additional “nice to have”, which have grown in importance. This is especially true given that the expected trains from Germany etc. haven’t materialised, Eurostar have barely served Ashford for years (and never served Ebbsfleet or Stratford!), and the utilisation of the line by international trains is quite low.

In fact, if the Javelins weren’t there, the whole thing would probably look like something of a white elephant!

Eurostar did serve Ebbsfleet, just think it was maybe 4-5 trains a day at maximum.

Reliability otherwise is generally high and you don’t tend to see Southeastern HS or Eurostar delaying each other - notwithstanding overhead line problems last week!

 

[43066]

Eurostar did serve Ebbsfleet, just think it was maybe 4-5 trains a day at maximum.

Reliability otherwise is generally high and you don’t tend to see Southeastern HS or Eurostar delaying each other - notwithstanding overhead line problems last week!

I actually hadn’t realised that! Looks like Ashford lost out to Ebbsfleet’s benefit. I know there were compatibility issues with E320s stopping at Ashford, then of course Covid came along and nothing at either station since 2020. Seemingly not much prospect of a return anytime soon, either.

 

[yorksrob]

It's just a shame that main line services from Ashford to Charing Cross have been deliberately slowed and fares deliberately raised across the board to make HS1 more competitive.

 

[CFRAIL]

All that said, the service is well used, with a SE director telling me a few years back that the company wished more stock had been ordered (COVID may have changed that).

I just personally find it quite wasteful having them crawl along main lines. Think back to the rounder days, a journey in excess of 3.5 hours and yet only a little over an hour of which was truly high speed