Seemingly poor reliability of WCR 47's/57's compared to other fleets?

[Charlie Smythe]

I know it's probably not a good idea to have your first contain negative information on a company, but I just had to ask this question. Why are WCR 47's/57's so unreliable compare to LSL's?

Down here in Devon we get a number of tours by WCR and LSL, many of which are either hauled by or supported by a Class 47 or 57 and I can't help but notice that for some reason WCR seem to have a lot more breakdowns than LSL do.

WCR have been down on a tour in Devon 6-7 time this year and they have had 3 class 47/57 failures (the latest being yesterday on The Royal Dutchy and the other two being on the Northern Belle and Saltburn Rail Tours) where as LSL have run I believe (don't quote me on this) 8 tours with class 47's or 57's as either haulage or support and have had no failures at all.

Why is this? I was at the summit of Hemerdon yesterday and a few were talking about the lack of a support diesel and from what I have heard it's down to poor maintenance but that's not my words.

Does anyone have any ideas? Feel free to correct me on any mistakes I have made. Again, sorry for such a negative first post.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, these are very old locomotives now and the WCRC maintenance bases are in Carnforth and Southall, both some distance from the West of England.

47s failed in every day traffic as well.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

You’re correct, but LSL’s loco’s are based in Crewe and they haven’t failed once this year and have been this far West more often this year. They’re old, but it’s a little odd how one company is keeping them going a little better.

 

[Journeyman]

It's not that different to what you see in TOCs, where there's huge disparities between some TOCs operating identical fleets. For some time SWT/SWRs 159s were clocking up absolutely staggeringly good reliability figures, while other TOCs saw their 158s conk out all the time. It's not always entirely obvious why this is.

 

[irish_rail]

Could it be a smaller pool of drivers down here, who perhaps are trying a little to hard to entertain enthusiasts with inevitable results? Just a pure guess BTW, but it only takes one driver who wants to drive it like he stole it and bang.

 

[37424]

Seem to recall that the boring traction (47's) on last years LSL staycation express seemed to be frequently not available.

Whoever they belong to 47's are knackered old junk which are probably just about good enough for a charter train every few days but not much else, but clearly better maintenance regimes are likely to make some difference, like some people flog their cars to death and don't properly maintain them and then wonder why they have problems with them, plus I'm not sure many people would want to use a 60 year old car as their daily drive.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

It's not that different to what you see in TOCs, where there's huge disparities between some TOCs operating identical fleets. For some time SWT/SWRs 159s were clocking up absolutely staggeringly good reliability figures, while other TOCs saw their 158s conk out all the time. It's not always entirely obvious why this is.

I’m not sure what they’re like these days, but SWT 159’s were indeed fantastic in terms of reliability. Down to poor maintenance on the other TOC’s part?

 

[37114]

It is like a lot of automotive things, how much is it used, how often is it maintained/ overhauled all come into play but it comes down to money at the end of the day and how much you are prepared to spend on it. It is likely that different maintenance regimes have been big part to play; say a component has a design life of 2,000 hours, the reality is it may last between 1,900 and 2,500 hours. If your approach is to replace at 1,800 hours your failure rate will be lower than say deciding to replace at 2,000 hours but your maintenance costs will be higher.

 

[47827]

I can't be bothered answering the post in great depth, to the point I'd like to, but am probably a reliable source to comment and I travelled on a few hundred moves (passenger and stock moves) involving wcrc 47s and they weren't all that bad in the main, with 57s being barely any better in my own experience. The fleet is now over sized though and all bar an odd one sees very little use although there are reasons for that, including buying what's left that was available while it still exists due to the ever growing shortages of parts and longer lead times to source them. They aren't designed to sit around doing nothing 95% + of the year, with the exception of the odd Northern Belle loco that may have 4 or 5 days use a week in busier times of year. Low use almost always results in iffy reliability.

Comparing them to LSL too, Mr Hosking has thrown massive budgets at some of them recently with trips to major workshops with a decent track record and invested in better facilities and will pay to get the best staff he can get his hands on, whereas wcrc will try to get staff in the same vain to a point but it's locations are less desirable to some of the potential workforce and the facilities are adequate but not at the same spec as LSL Crewe TMD which has a lot of undercover space too.

You could go 20 to 30 operating days of running without a WCRC loco failing sometimes but then get 2 or 3 incidents over several trains. Overall barely into double figures over a few hundred days though. In recent years the fewer trains I've been on have no failures yet during the day.

The balance between maintenance, general condition of the fleet and amount of use don't tally up at the moment unfortunately so matching LSL (who use its 47s more efficiently and are at an advantage on facilities and budgets) is difficult. LSL locos have only been slightly better than WCRC though in the last few years from what I can see so I dispute the claim made earlier.

Recall reading criticism of 47851 earlier but to be fair to the loco it had only really had a bad track record at wcrc and I hadn't personally experienced the issues with it mooted elsewhere.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Seem to recall that the boring traction (47's) on last years LSL staycation express seemed to be frequently not available.

Whoever they belong to 47's are knackered old junk which are probably just about good enough for a charter train every few days but not much else, but clearly better maintenance regimes are likely to make some difference, like some people flog their cars to death and don't properly maintain them and then wonder why they have problems with them, plus I'm not sure many people would want to use a 60 year old car as their daily drive.

Are they that bad? They are the mainstay of UK charters and with the 57's not being much better WCR and LSL don't really have much choice. It seems that LSL seem to have a better grip on the fleet than WCR, someone at Hemerdon suggested that this is because LSL have money coming out their ears where as WCR don't. What are 37's like? They're very rare down this way but could be an alternative.

I can't be bothered answering the post in great depth, to the point I'd like to, but am probably a reliable source to comment and I travelled on a few hundred moves (passenger and stock moves) involving wcrc 47s and they weren't all that bad in the main, with 57s being barely any better in my own experience. The fleet is now over sized though and all bar an odd one sees very little use although there are reasons for that, including buying what's left that was available while it still exists due to the ever growing shortages of parts and longer lead times to source them. They aren't designed to sit around doing nothing 95% + of the year, with the exception of the odd Northern Belle loco that may have 4 or 5 days use a week in busier times of year. Low use almost always results in iffy reliability.

Comparing them to LSL too, Mr Hosking has thrown massive budgets at some of them recently with trips to major workshops with a decent track record and invested in better facilities and will pay to get the best staff he can get his hands on, whereas wcrc will try to get staff in the same vain to a point but it's locations are less desirable to some of the potential workforce and the facilities are adequate but not at the same spec as LSL Crewe TMD which has a lot of undercover space too.

You could go 20 to 30 operating days of running without a WCRC loco failing sometimes but turn get 2 or 3 incidents over several trains. Overall barely into double figures over a few hundred days though. In recent years the fewer trains I've been on have no failures yet during the day.

The balance between maintenance, general condition of the fleet and amount of use don't tally up at the moment unfortunately so matching LSL (who use its 47s more efficiently and are at an advantage on facilities and budgets) is difficult.

Recall reading criticism of 47851 earlier but to be fair to the loco it had only really had a bad track record at wcrc and I hadn't personally experienced the issues with it mooted elsewhere.

I appreciate your vast expiriance and am interested to hear about it. So are you saying it's more down to lack of use rather than poor maintenance on WCR's part? When/if you can be bothered I would be interested to hear you full answer as I find this interesting and after Sunday I couldn't help but notice a failure rate of 3 out of 7 tours to the West of England.

I get what you're saying about buying up whats availiable while its there else in 5 years time WCR or LSL could find themselves with a fleet that needs work with nothing to cover it and no parts. It will be intereting to see how much longer they can drag on 47's, 57's and 37's and what happens when they finally get sick of spending money on them.

If WCR are rapidly buying up locos why aren't LSL, or is their fleet strategy more a few good locos instead of lot of not so good ones?

 

[47827]

Are they that bad? They are the mainstay of UK charters and with the 57's not being much better WCR and LSL don't really have much choice. It seems that LSL seem to have a better grip on the fleet than WCR, someone at Hemerdon suggested that this is because LSL have money coming out their ears where as WCR don't. What are 37's like? They're very rare down this way but could be an alternative.


I appreciate your vast expiriance and am interested to hear about it. So are you saying it's more down to lack of use rather than poor maintenance on WCR's part? When/if you can be bothered I would be interested to hear you full answer as I find this interesting and after Sunday I couldn't help but notice a failure rate of 3 out of 7 tours to the West of England.

I get what you're saying about buying up whats availiable while its there else in 5 years time WCR or LSL could find themselves with a fleet that needs work with nothing to cover it and no parts. It will be intereting to see how much longer they can drag on 47's, 57's and 37's and what happens when they finally get sick of spending money on them.

If WCR are rapidly buying up locos why aren't LSL, or is their fleet strategy more a few good locos instead of lot of not so good ones?

I think LSL were buying up what they could at one point but as well as locos they can afford to buy a bigger stock of bespoke parts, are probably at an almost the optimum fleet size where 47s are concerned, and have 2 47s (712 and 828) on lease plus a motley collection of preserved and heritage diesels that are a mix of owned and leased that can cover lower speed duties such as load learners, steam ECS moves etc (with a generator car). Besides, I think WCRC took the 4 ex ROG ones (displaced by leased DRS 57s) as a privately arranged job lot deal. Given current lukewarm relations between LSL and WCRC I'd say LSL would have (possibly) considered taking them to prevent them going where they are but weren't given the option of bidding perhaps (only speculation though so no need to quote me on it).

I would say lack of use for ANY 47 is a pre courser to iffy reliability, but other factors may also come into it such as maintenance, drivers or sheer pot luck. You would need to look at a full 12 months plus of operations across the company including Northern Belle as the West Country is a tiny snapshot.

 

[fgwrich]

I can't be bothered answering the post in great depth, to the point I'd like to, but am probably a reliable source to comment and I travelled on a few hundred moves (passenger and stock moves) involving wcrc 47s and they weren't all that bad in the main, with 57s being barely any better in my own experience. The fleet is now over sized though and all bar an odd one sees very little use although there are reasons for that, including buying what's left that was available while it still exists due to the ever growing shortages of parts and longer lead times to source them. They aren't designed to sit around doing nothing 95% + of the year, with the exception of the odd Northern Belle loco that may have 4 or 5 days use a week in busier times of year. Low use almost always results in iffy reliability.

Comparing them to LSL too, Mr Hosking has thrown massive budgets at some of them recently with trips to major workshops with a decent track record and invested in better facilities and will pay to get the best staff he can get his hands on, whereas wcrc will try to get staff in the same vain to a point but it's locations are less desirable to some of the potential workforce and the facilities are adequate but not at the same spec as LSL Crewe TMD which has a lot of undercover space too.

You could go 20 to 30 operating days of running without a WCRC loco failing sometimes but then get 2 or 3 incidents over several trains. Overall barely into double figures over a few hundred days though. In recent years the fewer trains I've been on have no failures yet during the day.

The balance between maintenance, general condition of the fleet and amount of use don't tally up at the moment unfortunately so matching LSL (who use its 47s more efficiently and are at an advantage on facilities and budgets) is difficult. LSL locos have only been slightly better than WCRC though in the last few years from what I can see so I dispute the claim made earlier.

Recall reading criticism of 47851 earlier but to be fair to the loco it had only really had a bad track record at wcrc and I hadn't personally experienced the issues with it mooted elsewhere.

Something else worth mentioning is that the LSL fleet have almost continually had money lavished at them over the last few years, being made up of ex DRS locomotives. Until the last few years (802 / 832 being early DRS casualties and the recent ex ROG / DRS / Riviera 4), the majority of the West Coast fleet were very much Ex Virgin, Ex Pres and in some cases Ex BR.

Anyway, unlike some of the rumours going around over this weekends 47 issue, it was actually a generator issue which resulted in it working (on it's own) back to Southall for attention. LSL's 47s haven't exactly been infallible to issues of late either, though they often send them out in pairs so any apparent issues are less prevalent / visible.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

This weekends failure was rumoured to be a fuel problem but it became apparent later on that it was indeed a main generator issue. I always doubted the rumour for a few reasons 1) that it would be an unlikely error from WCR staff and 2) even if they weren’t fully fuelled when leaving Southall, a 47 has an 800 ish galling tank and a 47/8 has a 1100 gallon tank so plenty for Southall and return.

Im not certain on the tank capacities nor the MPG but I’m dam sure that there would have been enough fuel for the trip.

It will be very interesting to see how the 47’s across all companies fare over the next 5 years. They are of course getting older and older and with that comes less and less reliability. What’s the replacement? The 37’s are just as old and the 20’s, 33’s and all that are either scrapped or on heritage lines (wouldn’t be powerful enough anyway and are just as old). One option, get as many 57’s as you can and true to scrape by on whatever locos they can. Unlikely that ROG will need their 57’s when the 93’s come along.

Or, get a few 67’s, but they’re not so heritage so wouldn’t go down so well. I know it’s all what if’s, but surely the 47’s will become uneconomical to repair eventually?

 

[Journeyman]

The 37s are significantly more reliable, I think, but yeah, they won't last forever.

 

[Skymonster]

Having visited the depots of both WCRC at Carnforth and LSL at Crewe I can relate that there’s a world of difference - although both run with a very dedicated team. I have absolutely no doubt about the knowledge, skill and professionalism of the maintenance team at Carnforth (and I think anyone who does is insulting) but they have to work with the hand they are dealt and my impression is Mr Hosking has deeper pockets than Mr Smith. Nevertheless I believe both WCRC and LSL deliver great products given the challenging nature of operating elderly (heritage) diesel locos.

For anyone who regards LSL in much higher regard than WCRC, I’d jut point out that it was seemingly a bit “lucky” that Midland Pullman didn’t end up with a lot of very inconvenienced and well-paying customers in mid-Wales a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The 37s are significantly more reliable, I think, but yeah, they won't last forever.

Are they? Do wonder why they’re not used some more then. Power, fuel economy or just lack of availability because they seem to have less of them.

 

[37424]

This weekends failure was rumoured to be a fuel problem but it became apparent later on that it was indeed a main generator issue. I always doubted the rumour for a few reasons 1) that it would be an unlikely error from WCR staff and 2) even if they weren’t fully fuelled when leaving Southall, a 47 has an 800 ish galling tank and a 47/8 has a 1100 gallon tank so plenty for Southall and return.

Im not certain on the tank capacities nor the MPG but I’m dam sure that there would have been enough fuel for the trip.

It will be very interesting to see how the 47’s across all companies fare over the next 5 years. They are of course getting older and older and with that comes less and less reliability. What’s the replacement? The 37’s are just as old and the 20’s, 33’s and all that are either scrapped or on heritage lines (wouldn’t be powerful enough anyway and are just as old). One option, get as many 57’s as you can and true to scrape by on whatever locos they can. Unlikely that ROG will need their 57’s when the 93’s come along.

Or, get a few 67’s, but they’re not so heritage so wouldn’t go down so well. I know it’s all what if’s, but surely the 47’s will become uneconomical to repair eventually?

Wouldn't go down well with who? since these companies tend to run them mainly on general charter trains or diesel portions of Steam charters I don't see why a more modern loco would be an issue and even the 67's are 20 years old now.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Are they (37s) ? Do wonder why they’re not used some more then. Power, fuel economy or just lack of availability because they seem to have less of them.

37s don't have the legs of the class 47 nor the cab comfort. Some 37s are restricted to 80mph and the other few to 90mph, and dependant on load would struggle to maintain 90mph up hill and down dale. 47s on the other hand have longer legs and can cruise along in the 90s (plated for 95mph) and possibly 47712 still has it's 100mph rating from it's "shove" days.

If you want a loco on the front of your charter to maintain NR prescribed timings, it is better to be a Brush 4, unless you have the advantage of a class 45 or 46 of course !!!!

 

[Skymonster]

If you want a loco on the front of your charter to maintain NR prescribed timings, it is better to be a Brush 4, unless you have the advantage of a class 45 or 46 of course !!!!

Not forgetting a 55 too - but I‘ve got a sneaky suspicion that Mr Hosking will have one of those, and a 45, running mainline charters in 2022. By the time that happens, he will likely have spent hundreds of thousands or more for the privileg.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It will be very interesting to see how the 47’s across all companies fare over the next 5 years. They are of course getting older and older and with that comes less and less reliability. What’s the replacement? The 37’s are just as old and the 20’s, 33’s and all that are either scrapped or on heritage lines (wouldn’t be powerful enough anyway and are just as old). One option, get as many 57’s as you can and true to scrape by on whatever locos they can. Unlikely that ROG will need their 57’s when the 93’s come along.

Or, get a few 67’s, but they’re not so heritage so wouldn’t go down so well. I know it’s all what if’s, but surely the 47’s will become uneconomical to repair eventually?

LSL is a fairly new operation. They only started running charters about 3 years ago so it is unlikely they are going to start with a fleet of 47s and then almost immediately replace them, and WCRC have recently purchased 4 47s from ROG. So any speculation on their future use on charters is premature. I suspect they will be the main class of loco used on charters for a number of years.

 

[Skymonster]

And let’s not forget WCRC also runs the Jacobite (ok, steam but still) twice daily throughout the summer - how often do you hear of that failing, or of major problems on the frequent diesel/steam Scarborough Spa Express? WC is aiming to put a 31 on the Scarborough in a couple of weeks time - it’s adventurous and if it goes OK will be well regarded by some, but if it fails on the day others will criticise. For the most part though no one comments on the services that run as planned, and instead only focus on the failures.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Wouldn't go down well with who? since these companies tend to run them mainly on general charter trains or diesel portions of Steam charters I don't see why a more modern loco would be an issue and even the 67's are 20 years old now.

No one important, just the purists who are trackside aha. I would have no problem with a 67 and only suggested them because they're (reletively) new and there is also a surplus of them meaning any potential buyer may get a good deal since they're rather under utilised at the moment.

37s don't have the legs of the class 47 nor the cab comfort. Some 37s are restricted to 80mph and the other few to 90mph, and dependant on load would struggle to maintain 90mph up hill and down dale. 47s on the other hand have longer legs and can cruise along in the 90s (plated for 95mph) and possibly 47712 still has it's 100mph rating from it's "shove" days.

If you want a loco on the front of your charter to maintain NR prescribed timings, it is better to be a Brush 4, unless you have the advantage of a class 45 or 46 of course !!!!

Interesting, thank you. A 37 with say load 8-9 wouldn't do so well compared to a 47 and if it causes timing issues then it's no go straight away. Although the longer trains down this way that do use 47's are usually doubled headed, or at least they were back in 2019 when 37's last came down this way.

Not forgetting a 55 too - but I‘ve got a sneaky suspicion that Mr Hosking will have one of those, and a 45, running mainline charters in 2022. By the time that happens, he will likely have spent hundreds of thousands or more for the privileg.

We could only dream of being so lucky. The two 40's are down to Devon in October but I assume that they will be doubled headed for sure.

LSL is a fairly new operation. They only started running charters about 3 years ago so it is unlikely they are going to start with a fleet of 47s and then almost immediately replace them, and WCRC have recently purchased 4 47s from ROG. So any speculation on their future use on charters is premature. I suspect they will be the main class of loco used on charters for a number of years.

They purchase and use 47's because they have no choice, there is no alternative to them not unless you want a mixed bag fleet of locos but yes, they will remain the main class of loco for at least 5-7 years yet until some 66's (maybe) come of lease of something.

And let’s not forget WCRC also runs the Jacobite (ok, steam but still) twice daily throughout the summer - how often do you hear of that failing, or of major problems on the frequent diesel/steam Scarborough Spa Express? WC is aiming to put a 31 on the Scarborough in a couple of weeks time - it’s adventurous and if it goes OK will be well regarded by some, but if it fails on the day others will criticise. For the most part though no one comments on the services that run as planned, and instead only focus on the failures.

You only hear of the failures because the failures are what causes problems, like on Sunday.

 

[Bertie the bus]

They purchase and use 47's because they have no choice, there is no alternative to them not unless you want a mixed bag fleet of locos but yes, they will remain the main class of loco for at least 5-7 years yet until some 66's (maybe) come of lease of something.

Nobody is going to purchase 66s for use on charters. Their top speed is too slow and they don't have ETS. It is also extremely unlikely anybody is going to purchase a number of 67s. The economics wouldn't stack up. 47s are here to stay for a considerable length of time.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Nobody is going to purchase 66s for use on charters. Their top speed is too slow and they don't have ETS. It is also extremely unlikely anybody is going to purchase a number of 67s. The economics wouldn't stack up. 47s are here to stay for a considerable length of time.

I get that, but surely there will come a point where the 47’s are just draining money left right and centre to a point where buying a newer but not brand new (67,66 or whatever) may not seem to bad. You can keep an old car going forever, but eventually you must realise that you need to buy something new when your annual repair bill is more then a new car would have cost you in that year. I’m not saying it will happen soon, but eventually something will give, or could we see the death of the charter industry because of the lack of suitable traction?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I repeat, nobody is going to buy 66s for charter work. They are totally unsuitable. It wouldn't matter if Elon Musk entered the charter market with all his money it wouldn't make 66s a suitable loco. As for your previous point about 47s being the only option available to LSL, that is also incorrect. Mr Hosking is a very rich man. He purchased 2 Class 90s at the time Freightliner were also snapping up all the spare ones they could get their hands on so he will have paid a good price for them. Therefore, if he had wanted to buy 67s he would have done but he didn't, he purchased 47s.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I repeat, nobody is going to buy 66s for charter work. They are totally unsuitable. It wouldn't matter if Elon Musk entered the charter market with all his money it wouldn't make 66s a suitable loco. As for your previous point about 47s being the only option available to LSL, that is also incorrect. Mr Hosking is a very rich man. He purchased 2 Class 90s at the time Freightliner were also snapping up all the spare ones they could get their hands on so he will have paid a good price for them. Therefore, if he had wanted to buy 67s he would have done but he didn't, he purchased 47s.

We will see the situation in 15 years time when the 47’s are piles of rust. 47’s are the only option for LSL, in terms of diesels at least. What else can they do? 37’s not suitable, 66’s not suitable, 67’s not suitable, 57’s basically 47’s maybe a bit better, not enough 50’s and HST power cars just wouldn’t work. There isn’t a lot of options for diesel locos about, no matter how you look at it.

 

[47827]

We will see the situation in 15 years time when the 47’s are piles of rust. 47’s are the only option for LSL, in terms of diesels at least. What else can they do? 37’s not suitable, 66’s not suitable, 67’s not suitable, 57’s basically 47’s maybe a bit better, not enough 50’s and HST power cars just wouldn’t work. There isn’t a lot of options for diesel locos about, no matter how you look at it.

I wouldn't get too troubled by it all. But here's a few further points since the last post.

As I understand from those who speak to the purse holders regularly, LSL will probably have some DRS 57/3s if/when they come up but none have gone up for sale (yet) so being just "stuck with 47s" isn't quite true, not that I think that's the firm view among everyone there. The higher hours or worst condition 57/3s are still stored and need money spending on them now so DRS may give them up eventually. But an expensive trip to Eastleigh would probably be the first port of call and its possible WCRC may bid more or snap them up too, in which case an in house repair would be likely. Luckier still some of the more serviceable ones or those leased to ROG (before the 93s eventually arrive) may pop up at some stage in the future too. There was a little excitement when GW were reviewing options for the Night Riviera too but that ship sailed back to 57s as they do an adequate job usually.

I understand WCRC do usually have only 2 or 3 of their 57s operational at present as the Belle has given them intensive use after years of sporadic use.

37s v 47s? Going off the 4 decades I've seen them both in action and personal experience it's swings and roundabouts (although a key engineer at WCRC says they 37s are worse and ROG said the opposite). Various factors come into play (too many to explain quickly). Neither is vastly universally better or worse. Both have had blips and triumphs. At BR some depots (e.g. Stratford and Tinsley versus Crewe and Bescot were no contest), maintenance regimes, crews and types of work suited each class better and then enthusiast politics and the 80s/90s game of "fixing" rare stuff if you could fail the usual traction could cause a driver or controller to edge up any unreliability further. In this day in age with the way things are the last point is less of an issue as most crews and controllers understand the gravity of mucking about with stuff in such a fashion and depots can be interchanged to individual companies instead. Also, though, you will find some drivers at a few of the freight TOCs (not so much WCRC or LSL though) have either reluctance or apathy towards non preserved heritage traction and indeed lack the same years of experience or regular enough handling experience of say 37s or 47s even if they sign them to drive. I can recall this coming into play on occasions at both DRS and EWS/DB in the past when the equivalent ex BR WCRC driver would have got the loco home OK, plus some of the passenger TOCs that have drafted them in as cover had the same issue. Not that it helped when some of the locos were in a poor state that they were given in the first place. I can recall plenty of good and bad examples on the above classes over the last 30 to 40 years so from an unbiased view point (even though I have my own preference) I shan't say eirher a 37 or 47 is greatly more reliable as I'd be more interested in looking at its condition, who the crew might be, who's the operating TOC and what the job was etc.

67s?
I doubt any significant number will be released for a while now now due to the TFW mk4 sets needing several more from December 2022. Not good on longer trains (although will be OK on flatter routes with dry railhead). Top speed better but a 47 will manage better with hilly routes generally and has more reliable on board eth supply for the power on long charter rakes than 67s (used to have to roster a genny car as the brake when available as 67s and air con sets above several coaches with coaches that weren't in daily use didn't get on). Mk1s and VSOE sets with a 67 can be OK though, but they don't have vac brakes for the small chunk of that type stock or vac steam rescues so that makes them less use to WCRC than some of the heritage fleet.

 

[Wyrleybart]

One of the fundamental facts here in the 37 versus 47 debate is the class 47 has around 800 more horses to unleash than it's lower powered shed mate. We are told installed horsepower is what moves trains.

I agree with "47827" though - definitely horses for courses. A well-maintained 37 will rumble on for ever more, slower uphill, sometimes down to maybe twelve mph, or even "digging in" to around 8 mph. Just need to keep the weekly notices book in the firebells to stop the clapper from making a racket.

A locomotive or traction can grow old provided it is overhauled regularly. The Isle of Wight 38 stock has only recently given up the ghost because the operator hasn't funded the procurement of parts, and maybe doled out the TLC which an old device needs. It is certainly cheaper to provide maintenance for a modern unit - hence why BR refurbished the 37s. Simple terms a DC generator uses brushes against a commutator, a friction system which wears out. An AC alternator doesn't, which is why modern trains are AC powered, which delivers stronger power anyway. Even your class 66 still has DC traction motors, even though the traction alternator bolted to the prime mover is an alternator.

Having said all that , some preserved diesels are having their electrical machines overhauled by specialist electrical companies and are as good as new. The potential problem for older locos is ensuring the electrical, pneumatic and fluid systems are in good condition, moreso when they are under floors and behind bulkheads. Plenty of cases where an air pipe has vibrated itself loose, or chafed itself raw, but if the locomotive is stripped right down at overhaul stage and old piping and cabling is renewed, then overhauled machines are installed, they could literally go for ever.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I wouldn't get too troubled by it all. But here's a few further points since the last post.

I am not don't worry, I just find it interesting.

As I understand from those who speak to the purse holders regularly, LSL will probably have some DRS 57/3s if/when they come up but none have gone up for sale (yet) so being just "stuck with 47s" isn't quite true, not that I think that's the firm view among everyone there. The higher hours or worst condition 57/3s are still stored and need money spending on them now so DRS may give them up eventually. But an expensive trip to Eastleigh would probably be the first port of call and its possible WCRC may bid more or snap them up too, in which case an in house repair would be likely. Luckier still some of the more serviceable ones or those leased to ROG (before the 93s eventually arrive) may pop up at some stage in the future too. There was a little excitement when GW were reviewing options for the Night Riviera too but that ship sailed back to 57s as they do an adequate job usually.

I understand WCRC do usually have only 2 or 3 of their 57s operational at present as the Belle has given them intensive use after years of sporadic use.

Would LSL not take on some 57/0's as well as the 57/3's you mention? I can't remember the differances of the top of my head but I know that speed, power and fuel capacity are all differant I think. The GWR 57's do a decent job most of the time until they don't, but crew knowledge and leasing costs mean that they will remain until at least 2023 as GWR have been asked to put together a plan for the replacement of the 57's as well as the Mk3's, although even if they did decided to replace them in 2023, it wouldn't be until 3 years later in 2026 that the 57's would become avaliable.

As for the Northern Belle, how many locos does it take to operate it through out the year? I know the train is worked by two so I assume that there is a spare one plus on out of maintenance at all times 3 minimum surely?

67s?
I doubt any significant number will be released for a while now now due to the TFW mk4 sets needing several more from December 2022. Not good on longer trains (although will be OK on flatter routes with dry railhead). Top speed better but a 47 will manage better with hilly routes generally and has more reliable on board eth supply for the power on long charter rakes than 67s (used to have to roster a genny car as the brake when available as 67s and air con sets above several coaches with coaches that weren't in daily use didn't get on). Mk1s and VSOE sets with a 67 can be OK though, but they don't have vac brakes for the small chunk of that type stock or vac steam rescues so that makes them less use to WCRC than some of the heritage fleet.

67's would be many years down the line if they did ever move into the railtour world, but even then its unlikely. As for their ETH supply I didn't know that it wasn't so good. Their TE is very low for what they are so would be interesting load 12 over the South Devon Banks.

 

[43096]

67's would be many years down the line if they did ever move into the railtour world, but even then its unlikely. As for their ETH supply I didn't know that it wasn't so good. Their TE is very low for what they are so would be interesting load 12 over the South Devon Banks.

There’s nothing wrong with the 67’s ETH: it’s poorly-maintained stock that is the problem with them.