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Sensible proposals for restarting the electrification programme

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coppercapped

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There is no point in electrifying Didcot to Oxford until EWR and Oxford-Coventry are also electrified, as it would only benefit 1 tph (1 of the 2 fast trains per hour from Paddington, the other continues to Worcester and beyond).
That I don't understand at all. I have no idea where your figure of one train per hour which could benefit comes from.

The traditional terminus for the Paddington - Slough - Reading - Didcot - Oxford suburban service is Oxford. These two trains per hour only terminate at Didcot because the wires don't go any further and as a result the 387s would struggle north of there. This is why there is a diesel shuttle service between Didcot and Oxford.

Both the two hourly fast trains to Oxford are IETs, one of which continues to Worcester. Both switch to diesel at Didcot so, if the wires continued through to Oxford, they would be electrically operated. The DMUs used for the shuttle could be moved to strengthen services around Bristol.

The off-peak pattern between (Paddington) Didcot and Oxford would therefore be four electrically operated trains in each direction per hour, not one.
 
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coppercapped

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I do agree that Oxford should wait until any proposed remodelling is done (I think there are some plans to do so) but it would benefit more services than just 1tph as the Worcester service is a bi-mode so could still use the wires to Oxford and the Didcot to Oxford shuttles could be operated by 387's and possible rejoined on to the Paddington to Didcot stopping services.
The remodelling has already been done with passive provision for an extra Down passenger loop. None of the recently installed track or S&C work needs to be moved. The layout can be electrified as it stands.

The Botley Road underbridge would need to be rebuilt to accommodate the track serving the extra platform but bridges have been rebuilt under electrified lines before now so that is not a show stopper.

There is no reason whatsoever for further delay.
 

tbtc

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Oh, forgot to add Metro Centre - such a short bit of line that was ignored when the ECML was electrified that I forgot to add it to the list myself!

Are you trying to kill me off through shock?! :o:o

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest my own route for electrification outside the darkest of fever dreams :lol:

Eek, am I going on moderation (for causing a heart attack in a Moderator)?

TBQH I hadn't traditionally considered it as one for electrification (given that no other "local" services in the area are electrified - it'd stick out like a sore thumb - you couldn't interwork with other routes)....

...BUT, a combination of Ben Houchen's election and the fact that Bishop Auckland and Redcar were two of the highest profile Tory gains a few weeks ago mean it'd be quite a significant area of the country for Johnson to be seen to invest in - all of a sudden, this is the political bellwether - the kind of loyal Labour seats that have now swung - it'd be politically savvy to be seen to reward "left behind" voters (and, I've got extended family on the line, who feel like the North East is the most ignored bit of England and the Bishop Auckland - Saltburn corridor is probably the most ignored bit of the North East... it's a bit like the Jimmy Rabbitte rant in The Commitments about how "the Irish are the blacks of Europe"...)

If I controlled the Network Rail budget, it wouldn't be my top priority, but if I were a deeply cynical Tory who was desperate to create friction in the "traditional" Labour vote then I'd have an eye on how I could be seen to bring investment to ignored areas to ram home the point that Labour never did much for voters around there (compare and contrast the 2004 Northern franchise to a modern Tory party keen to get infrastructure jobs in the Tees Valley etc etc)

I'm basing this on nothing other than my own bitter opinion but it would tick a lot of boxes in terms of new Tory seats, a Mayoral win (in a part of the country where Tories don't win very often - I know that there are some rather luxurious parts of the Tees Valley - I'm not trying to stereotype).

Houchen talks a good game about British Steel and the Airport and wants to be seen as a hands-on kind of activist politician, so spending a few quid here would be a great way to promote a guy who the Tory party may want to highlight.

And the message of "vote Tory and see years of Austerity replaced by lots of construction jobs and cleaner modern trains" is the kind of one that might resonate amongst the kind of seats that just about stayed Labour under Corbyn in 2019 but are potentially susceptible at the next election (e.g. fewer than a thousand majority for Labour in Newport, so if you wanted electrification from Newport to Ebbw Vale would a handful of people be more likely to vote Tory when they see the riches showered upon the people of Redcar?)

"Don't have fever dreams; do sleep well" :lol:
 

HSTEd

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In what way is that relevant to this thread? No-one is proposing diesel tram-trains for Greater Manchester.
It's relevant because it is clear that electrification is not a prerequisite of tramification of the Marples side of the Hope Valley line system, despite what was said in the post to which I was responding.
 
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One of the biggest problems encountered when the current round of electrification programmes started was the loss of knowledge and expertise as a consequence of more or less no work being done since privatisation; surely, therefore, the starting point for any conjecture such as this is to consider where electrification teams are currently located, and then identify the best way to keep them occupied so as to maximise conversion from diesel to electric traction. Let's not forget that the Sprinter family are now getting rather old, and even some Turbostars date from 1997 (if the first 168s are included), so the need to procure replacement passenger rolling stock will soon become critical.

I believe the electrification team for the MML is based in Derby, and there'll be one somewhere for the GW (Swindon?) I guess there'll be one responsible for North West England, but is that same team responsible for Trans Pennine electrifications schemes east of the Pennines as well? Who was responsible for GOBLIN? And is there a team based in the West Midlands who were responsible for Walsall - Rugeley and down the Lickey to Bromsgrove? In my opinion, what is planned/approved should be based initially around their capabilities.

I agree with what's been said about Windermere; I guess it's pretty well shovel ready and will eliminate a great deal of DMU mileage - would it also allow a Lancaster stop to be inserted into the Manchester Airport - Windermere trains? Having done that, what about Carnforth - Barrow? Or would that be better for something like a 755? Presumably, the team who's been responsible for electrification in the north west could complete Windermere quite quickly.

On the MML, because of the location of the power supply point an extension to Market Harborough is a no-brainer; has it been categorically stated that this is to go ahead? And by the time that's finished, the new trains which definitely aren't going to be class 804s should have arrived, and the MML's long distance services will be worked by bi-modes and so it makes sense to capitalise upon this capability. Therefore, once Market Harborough has been reached, would it be better for the MML team to then start at Doncaster/Moorthorpe and work south to Derby (and include the Matlock branch), and then round to Nottingham and south as far as East Midlands Parkway? This will give plenty of time to undertake whatever works are required at Leicester, and the electrification team will be able to move in after it's completed.

However, before the Leicester gap is done, I suggest the MML team should be responsible for electrifying between Derby and Birmingham, and this should also include Wichnor Junction to Lichfield (including the link to the WCML); this has the potential to release more DMUs than by completing the MML.

The West Midlands team should give there initial attention to the electrification of the fast lines between King's Norton and Longbridge (or there abouts); these weren't done when Cross City was electrified, and upon their completion the XC route will be electrified all of the way between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Bromsgrove via Doncaster.

The scope for replacing diesels with electrics will then be quite substantial; services which immediately come to mind are Leeds-Sheffield, Sheffield-Doncaster-Adwick, Nottingham-Matlock, Nottingham-Birmingham.

Moreover, the potential then exists for upgrading the Nottingham-Cardiff service. What about something like Trans Pennines Nova 3s and the proposed class 93 tri-modes? They would have the benefit of electric haulage up the Lickey, and (if I understand what I've read about them correctly) they're potentially similar in performance to class 37s when running as diesels with a battery boost to help them get away from a standing start. Wouldn't this power output be sufficient for moving 5 coaches initially between Bromsgrove and Severn Tunnel Junction, and later just on the section south west of Gloucester?

Jumping to the north, if I understand it correctly, Huddersfield-Leeds is definitely being electrified as part of the Trans Pennine upgrade; but is it then being continued eastwards? If it is, as well as giving more electrified mileage for Trans Pennine's class 802s to run as electrics, it also fills in another gap in the XC Scotland - South West England route (I don't know how Northern would benefit from this bit, but the Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers need to go from TPE to Northern if they're to go over to electric traction).

Back to the West Midlands team; having completed the wiring of all tracks west from New Street to Barnt Green, they should then extend south westwards from Bromsgrove to join with the Paddington-South Wales line at Westerleigh Junction (this should include the Gloucester triangle); Camp Hill also needs to be electrified - perhaps this should be done before effort is put into the line south west from Bromsgrove. The GW team needs to electrify between Parkway and Temple Meads so that can be energised - at the latest - at the same time as the wires reach Westerleigh from Brum; this will allow some more electric mileage for the GWR bi-modes, and the possibility of running electrics in the Cardiff-Newport-Bristol corridor has already been mentioned.

Timing; completion of the northern section of the MML, Derby-Birmingham, Neville Hill-Colton Junction, Bromsgrove-Westerleigh Junction and Filton Bank needs to have a target of 2030. Many of the Voyagers/Super Voyagers and all of XC's HSTs can then be disposed of - the latter will be getting on for 55 years old - and new stock take over. Could these be similar in concept to the REP/TCs used on Waterloo-Bournemouth/Weymouth? Could, say, a 5-car non-powered set have a high-powered EMU at its northern end, and at Bristol that be replaced by something like a 68 to propel the non-powered unit over Whiteball and the South Devon banks to Plymouth and beyond? These could also be used on the Manchester services - of course, the routes these services use are already electrified north of Birmingham. And by that time, the Nottingham-Cardiff services would be electric powered north of Gloucester, so a 93 (or equivalent) should be more than adequate along the Welsh bank of the Severn. Being realistic, although it can be argued that electrification through to Plymouth is desirable, it's unlikely it could be completed in the next ten years; however, if the government would agree to a rolling programme of electrification, even if lines west of Exeter weren't being done for, say, 15-20 years, it might make sense to make some passive provision for future electrification - perhaps even installing mast foundations - whilst the works along the South Devon sea wall between Dawlish and Teignmouth are being undertaken.

I'm not sure how Reading-Basingstoke and Didcot-Oxford should be prioritised, but both should also have a target completion date of 2030; but perhaps another electrification team needs to be established asap to manage electrification of the Chiltern network.

As the West Midlands team will be prioritising the NE/SW route between the Birmingham area and Westerleigh, perhaps the Chiltern team should start with Nuneaton-Coventry, then do Coventry-Leamington Spa, then Birmingham-Leamington Spa via Solihull, then on to Oxford via Banbury to join up with the electrified GW route. This should also be targeted for completion by 2030. XC could then have a fleet of dual voltage EMUs to operate Newcastle-Reading/Southampton and Manchester-Bournemouth services. The Chiltern team could then continue to electrify the route into Marylebone, and the West Midlands team could complete the Moor Street/Snow Hill lines (it might be more advantageous to electrify Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury first, however, as that could enable some Avanti services to become all electric as well as local services in the Wolves-Salop corridor).

The MML team should then move back to fill the Leicester gap; continuing with the 10 year objective for completion of the works described above, whatever is going to be done at Leicester needs to be completed so that the entire MML can be electrified by 2030, and the MML completion programme should also include electrification of Nottingham-Newark-Lincoln. Completion of this by 2030 is desirable but not essential, and this will permit the Leicester-Lincoln locals to go over to electrics and for the King's Cross-Lincolns to run all of the way under the wires.

Up in the north, electrification needs to plod on eastward over the Pennines from Victoria/Piccadilly through Standedge to Huddersfield, to join up with that already being worked-on between there and Leeds; not sure what they turn their attention to next - should it be west through Wigan to Southport? Although the former CLC route through Warrington Central sounds good, if Liverpool-Nottingham is transferred to TPE, at least two services will continue as diesel for some time to come as they are/very likely will be worked by 185s, and they've still got a lot of life left in them.

I understand the political argument for the electrification of lines such as that between Bishop Auckland and Saltburn, and I think a case could perhaps be made for Northallerton-Redcar; but from a resource point of view, I think it should come after 2030. However, as soon as the Trans Pennine electrification is completed, consideration should be given to replacing class 68s on Liverpool-Yorkshire services with something like class 93s (I guess 88s wouldn't have sufficient power when in diesel mode to replace class 68s east of York or Northallerton).

Although whether or not our railways should be re-nationalised is often a topic of discussion, I believe the main problem currently experienced relates to structure, not ownership; the Williams Review may address this, but even if it suggests something radical, it's unlikely that the performance achieved by BR regarding electrification will be matched. The 1955 Modernisation Plan suggested much electrification, but - apart from the SR lines which would be electrified using the 3rd rail system - all other lines would be electrified at 1500v DC. However, in 1956 BR's electrical engineer, S B Warder, decided that high voltage AC should be substituted for 1500v DC; just three years later, AC electrics started running on the Colchester-Clacton/Walton line, and in 1960 North Clydeside, Manchester-Crewe, and parts of the North East London network served from Liverpool Street were all energised. Although there were problems with transformers and mercury arc rectifiers exploding (or otherwise failing), to achieve this in such a short period was a massive achievement, for many of the changes introduced as a consequence pf Warder's decision were revolutionary rather than evolutionary. Some of the schemes not yet fully completed - like the GW one - were initially announced by Andrew Adonis, and the Labour government fell in 2010; but in just 12 years from the Modernisation Plan being announced, BR had electrified (overhead) the WCML from Euston to Manchester and Liverpool (including lines through the West Midlands and Stoke), South as well as North Clydeside, the LT&S line, the balance of the North East London programme and the GE main line between Chelmsford and Colchester, plus Kent Coast at 750v DC third rail - and also to Bournemouth, which was an extra project not included in the original Modernisation Plan schemes.

BR was able to bring experience to these projects; many of the guys involved had cut their teeth on the MSW or Shenfield schemes (subsequently extended to Southend and Chelmsford), and they'd also been involved in the AC experimental work undertaken on the Lancaster, Morecambe, and Heysham line. There hadn't been any major 750v DC schemes undertaken on the SR since before the war, but there had been power supply upgrades and work done as part of the 10-car programme on the South Eastern Division, and no doubt this expertise was used to advantage on the Kent Coast scheme.

So what ever is done in the near future needs to be planned initially round the electrification teams in place in England - Scotland and Wales will do their own thing; but the need to replace the Sprinters, 158s, 159s, and the Turbos in the not to distant future needs to be recognised. With careful planning, it MIGHT be possible to reduce demand for DMUs over the next ten years so that by 2030 the privatisation era DMUs are sufficient to meet demand for the following ten years, so that by 2040 only the CAF and Stadler DMUs and bi-modes currently being delivered are sufficient to cover the following 15 years; and by 2055, perhaps bionic duckweed (or whatever Roger Ford calls it!) will be able to power the trains required to operate over non-electrified lines, because at the present rate of progress it's very unlikely that lines such as the Blaenau Ffestiniog or Yorkshire's Esk Valley branches will be electrified, even if a financial case for so-doing could be made.

But, of course, the main problem is that although we can sit at our computers or tablets or phones and come up with what we believe are sensible ideas for restarting programmes for the electrification of Britain's railways, the present structure in England doesn't have anyone who can analyse the various options and then say "that's what we'll do"; unless, of course, Grant Shapps is more involved than Failing and is prepared to make and own decisions. For even if Williams recommends the establishment of something like the Strategic Rail Authority to take overall control, there isn't time to delay whilst it's set-up, and decisions on future electrification programmes need to be made now.
 
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Bald Rick

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That’s a reasonable example of where the service after electrification bears little resemblance to what happened before. IIRC Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh, 2 tph in the peak flow direction, wasn’t possible at all before electrification. On the other hand, in the 70s Portsmouth to Salisbury used to see DMU stoppers, which became electric but were cut back to Southampton.

The implication is that when thinking of electrification we should look at the best practical future service patterns, not just EMUs directly replacing DMUs “1 for 1”, as it were...

Agreed. Although for Ashford - Ore I would argue that Rye is hardly the equivalent of Cosham / Fareham etc.
 

yorksrob

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Agreed. Although for Ashford - Ore I would argue that Rye is hardly the equivalent of Cosham / Fareham etc.

Although both routes had aspirations through services that were achieved through electrification.

They also both have/had aspirational London services if you bear in mind Portsmouth - Waterloo via Eastleigh and Bexhill - London via HS1.

(Although personally I'd find a 6REP more comfortable than an Hitachi !).
 

Meerkat

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The remodelling has already been done with passive provision for an extra Down passenger loop. None of the recently installed track or S&C work needs to be moved. The layout can be electrified as it stands.

The Botley Road underbridge would need to be rebuilt to accommodate the track serving the extra platform but bridges have been rebuilt under electrified lines before now so that is not a show stopper.

There is no reason whatsoever for further delay.

Apart from decisions to be made about Didcot - Oxford quadrupling.....
 

Meerkat

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Is one of the best things the government could do be to fund an electrification academy, like there is/was a tunnelling one?
Bring the cost and resource issues down by increasing the number of competent people, and a few teaching jobs for those not up to nights out in the wilds any more.
Stick it in an area of high unemployment where locals will be more willing to adopt a nomadic or weekly commuting lifestyle (Teeside in line with previous politically cynical comments!!)
 

Aictos

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One of the biggest problems encountered when the current round of electrification programmes started was the loss of knowledge and expertise as a consequence of more or less no work being done since privatisation; surely, therefore, the starting point for any conjecture such as this is to consider where electrification teams are currently located, and then identify the best way to keep them occupied so as to maximise conversion from diesel to electric traction. Let's not forget that the Sprinter family are now getting rather old, and even some Turbostars date from 1997 (if the first 168s are included), so the need to procure replacement passenger rolling stock will soon become critical.

I believe the electrification team for the MML is based in Derby, and there'll be one somewhere for the GW (Swindon?) I guess there'll be one responsible for North West England, but is that same team responsible for Trans Pennine electrifications schemes east of the Pennines as well? Who was responsible for GOBLIN? And is there a team based in the West Midlands who were responsible for Walsall - Rugeley and down the Lickey to Bromsgrove? In my opinion, what is planned/approved should be based initially around their capabilities.

I agree with what's been said about Windermere; I guess it's pretty well shovel ready and will eliminate a great deal of DMU mileage - would it also allow a Lancaster stop to be inserted into the Manchester Airport - Windermere trains? Having done that, what about Carnforth - Barrow? Or would that be better for something like a 755? Presumably, the team who's been responsible for electrification in the north west could complete Windermere quite quickly.

On the MML, because of the location of the power supply point an extension to Market Harborough is a no-brainer; has it been categorically stated that this is to go ahead? And by the time that's finished, the new trains which definitely aren't going to be class 804s should have arrived, and the MML's long distance services will be worked by bi-modes and so it makes sense to capitalise upon this capability. Therefore, once Market Harborough has been reached, would it be better for the MML team to then start at Doncaster/Moorthorpe and work south to Derby (and include the Matlock branch), and then round to Nottingham and south as far as East Midlands Parkway? This will give plenty of time to undertake whatever works are required at Leicester, and the electrification team will be able to move in after it's completed.

However, before the Leicester gap is done, I suggest the MML team should be responsible for electrifying between Derby and Birmingham, and this should also include Wichnor Junction to Lichfield (including the link to the WCML); this has the potential to release more DMUs than by completing the MML.

The West Midlands team should give there initial attention to the electrification of the fast lines between King's Norton and Longbridge (or there abouts); these weren't done when Cross City was electrified, and upon their completion the XC route will be electrified all of the way between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Bromsgrove via Doncaster.

The scope for replacing diesels with electrics will then be quite substantial; services which immediately come to mind are Leeds-Sheffield, Sheffield-Doncaster-Adwick, Nottingham-Matlock, Nottingham-Birmingham.

Moreover, the potential then exists for upgrading the Nottingham-Cardiff service. What about something like Trans Pennines Nova 3s and the proposed class 93 tri-modes? They would have the benefit of electric haulage up the Lickey, and (if I understand what I've read about them correctly) they're potentially similar in performance to class 37s when running as diesels with a battery boost to help them get away from a standing start. Wouldn't this power output be sufficient for moving 5 coaches initially between Bromsgrove and Severn Tunnel Junction, and later just on the section south west of Gloucester?

Jumping to the north, if I understand it correctly, Huddersfield-Leeds is definitely being electrified as part of the Trans Pennine upgrade; but is it then being continued eastwards? If it is, as well as giving more electrified mileage for Trans Pennine's class 802s to run as electrics, it also fills in another gap in the XC Scotland - South West England route (I don't know how Northern would benefit from this bit, but the Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers need to go from TPE to Northern if they're to go over to electric traction).

Back to the West Midlands team; having completed the wiring of all tracks west from New Street to Barnt Green, they should then extend south westwards from Bromsgrove to join with the Paddington-South Wales line at Westerleigh Junction (this should include the Gloucester triangle); Camp Hill also needs to be electrified - perhaps this should be done before effort is put into the line south west from Bromsgrove. The GW team needs to electrify between Parkway and Temple Meads so that can be energised - at the latest - at the same time as the wires reach Westerleigh from Brum; this will allow some more electric mileage for the GWR bi-modes, and the possibility of running electrics in the Cardiff-Newport-Bristol corridor has already been mentioned.

Timing; completion of the northern section of the MML, Derby-Birmingham, Neville Hill-Colton Junction, Bromsgrove-Westerleigh Junction and Filton Bank needs to have a target of 2030. Many of the Voyagers/Super Voyagers and all of XC's HSTs can then be disposed of - the latter will be getting on for 55 years old - and new stock take over. Could these be similar in concept to the REP/TCs used on Waterloo-Bournemouth/Weymouth? Could, say, a 5-car non-powered set have a high-powered EMU at its northern end, and at Bristol that be replaced by something like a 68 to propel the non-powered unit over Whiteball and the South Devon banks to Plymouth and beyond? These could also be used on the Manchester services - of course, the routes these services use are already electrified north of Birmingham. And by that time, the Nottingham-Cardiff services would be electric powered north of Gloucester, so a 93 (or equivalent) should be more than adequate along the Welsh bank of the Severn. Being realistic, although it can be argued that electrification through to Plymouth is desirable, it's unlikely it could be completed in the next ten years; however, if the government would agree to a rolling programme of electrification, even if lines west of Exeter weren't being done for, say, 15-20 years, it might make sense to make some passive provision for future electrification - perhaps even installing mast foundations - whilst the works along the South Devon sea wall between Dawlish and Teignmouth are being undertaken.

I'm not sure how Reading-Basingstoke and Didcot-Oxford should be prioritised, but both should also have a target completion date of 2030; but perhaps another electrification team needs to be established asap to manage electrification of the Chiltern network.

As the West Midlands team will be prioritising the NE/SW route between the Birmingham area and Westerleigh, perhaps the Chiltern team should start with Nuneaton-Coventry, then do Coventry-Leamington Spa, then Birmingham-Leamington Spa via Solihull, then on to Oxford via Banbury to join up with the electrified GW route. This should also be targeted for completion by 2030. XC could then have a fleet of dual voltage EMUs to operate Newcastle-Reading/Southampton and Manchester-Bournemouth services. The Chiltern team could then continue to electrify the route into Marylebone, and the West Midlands team could complete the Moor Street/Snow Hill lines (it might be more advantageous to electrify Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury first, however, as that could enable some Avanti services to become all electric as well as local services in the Wolves-Salop corridor).

The MML team should then move back to fill the Leicester gap; continuing with the 10 year objective for completion of the works described above, whatever is going to be done at Leicester needs to be completed so that the entire MML can be electrified by 2030, and the MML completion programme should also include electrification of Nottingham-Newark-Lincoln. Completion of this by 2030 is desirable but not essential, and this will permit the Leicester-Lincoln locals to go over to electrics and for the King's Cross-Lincolns to run all of the way under the wires.

Up in the north, electrification needs to plod on eastward over the Pennines from Victoria/Piccadilly through Standedge to Huddersfield, to join up with that already being worked-on between there and Leeds; not sure what they turn their attention to next - should it be west through Wigan to Southport? Although the former CLC route through Warrington Central sounds good, if Liverpool-Nottingham is transferred to TPE, at least two services will continue as diesel for some time to come as they are/very likely will be worked by 185s, and they've still got a lot of life left in them.

I understand the political argument for the electrification of lines such as that between Bishop Auckland and Saltburn, and I think a case could perhaps be made for Northallerton-Redcar; but from a resource point of view, I think it should come after 2030. However, as soon as the Trans Pennine electrification is completed, consideration should be given to replacing class 68s on Liverpool-Yorkshire services with something like class 93s (I guess 88s wouldn't have sufficient power when in diesel mode to replace class 68s east of York or Northallerton).

Although whether or not our railways should be re-nationalised is often a topic of discussion, I believe the main problem currently experienced relates to structure, not ownership; the Williams Review may address this, but even if it suggests something radical, it's unlikely that the performance achieved by BR regarding electrification will be matched. The 1955 Modernisation Plan suggested much electrification, but - apart from the SR lines which would be electrified using the 3rd rail system - all other lines would be electrified at 1500v DC. However, in 1956 BR's electrical engineer, S B Warder, decided that high voltage AC should be substituted for 1500v DC; just three years later, AC electrics started running on the Colchester-Clacton/Walton line, and in 1960 North Clydeside, Manchester-Crewe, and parts of the North East London network served from Liverpool Street were all energised. Although there were problems with transformers and mercury arc rectifiers exploding (or otherwise failing), to achieve this in such a short period was a massive achievement, for many of the changes introduced as a consequence pf Warder's decision were revolutionary rather than evolutionary. Some of the schemes not yet fully completed - like the GW one - were initially announced by Andrew Adonis, and the Labour government fell in 2010; but in just 12 years from the Modernisation Plan being announced, BR had electrified (overhead) the WCML from Euston to Manchester and Liverpool (including lines through the West Midlands and Stoke), South as well as North Clydeside, the LT&S line, the balance of the North East London programme and the GE main line between Chelmsford and Colchester, plus Kent Coast at 750v DC third rail - and also to Bournemouth, which was an extra project not included in the original Modernisation Plan schemes.

BR was able to bring experience to these projects; many of the guys involved had cut their teeth on the MSW or Shenfield schemes (subsequently extended to Southend and Chelmsford), and they'd also been involved in the AC experimental work undertaken on the Lancaster, Morecambe, and Heysham line. There hadn't been any major 750v DC schemes undertaken on the SR since before the war, but there had been power supply upgrades and work done as part of the 10-car programme on the South Eastern Division, and no doubt this expertise was used to advantage on the Kent Coast scheme.

So what ever is done in the near future needs to be planned initially round the electrification teams in place in England - Scotland and Wales will do their own thing; but the need to replace the Sprinters, 158s, 159s, and the Turbos in the not to distant future needs to be recognised. With careful planning, it MIGHT be possible to reduce demand for DMUs over the next ten years so that by 2030 the privatisation era DMUs are sufficient to meet demand for the following ten years, so that by 2040 only the CAF and Stadler DMUs and bi-modes currently being delivered are sufficient to cover the following 15 years; and by 2055, perhaps bionic duckweed (or whatever Roger Ford calls it!) will be able to power the trains required to operate over non-electrified lines, because at the present rate of progress it's very unlikely that lines such as the Blaenau Ffestiniog or Yorkshire's Esk Valley branches will be electrified, even if a financial case for so-doing could be made.

But, of course, the main problem is that although we can sit at our computers or tablets or phones and come up with what we believe are sensible ideas for restarting programmes for the electrification of Britain's railways, the present structure in England doesn't have anyone who can analyse the various options and then say "that's what we'll do"; unless, of course, Grant Shapps is more involved than Failing and is prepared to make and own decisions. For even if Williams recommends the establishment of something like the Strategic Rail Authority to take overall control, there isn't time to delay whilst it's set-up, and decisions on future electrification programmes need to be made now.

All very well and good but I think the West Midlands team should also do Birmingham to Leicester with the East Midlands team also doing Leicester to Peterborough with the Anglia team doing Ely to Peterborough/Norwich and Felixstowe to Ely as they would be infill schemes if the work in the post above is done.
 
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When you say "teams" I assume you mean the third party contractors.

To be honest, I was thinking more about those responsible for design/project management rather than those actually doing the physical work; although the teams responsible for carrying out the work will have gained great expertise over the last few years - and this should be retained if possible - they are still largely doing what they are told, and I was thinking in terms of maintaining and capitalising upon the knowledge/expertise of the tellers rather than the doers.
 

Greybeard33

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It's relevant because it is clear that electrification is not a prerequisite of tramification of the Marples side of the Hope Valley line system, despite what was said in the post to which I was responding.
The TfGM proposal for tram-trains to Marple, as described in its draft 2020-25 Delivery Plan, is a longer term project that would be delivered later than 2025, subject to feasibility studies, funding and business case approval. On that timescale it beggars belief that procurement of new diesel rolling stock would be considered or permitted.

This proposal is not an acceptable excuse for rejection of nearer term electrification of the SE Manchester lines.
 

coppercapped

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Apart from decisions to be made about Didcot - Oxford quadrupling.....
Point taken...!

However depending on how any widening is done - tracks paired by use or direction - it is conceivable that any widening could be done without affecting wiring work and vice versa. In any event widening will almost certainly need some land take and some thought will be needed as to the best way to thread the extra tracks through Culham (with its listed Brunel chalet building) and Radley station with buildings on both sides. A new bridge over the Thames just south of Culham could be built without affecting the existing one.

An interesting challenge will the long desired flying junction at Didcot East... :smile: :?:
 

HSTEd

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The TfGM proposal for tram-trains to Marple, as described in its draft 2020-25 Delivery Plan, is a longer term project that would be delivered later than 2025, subject to feasibility studies, funding and business case approval. On that timescale it beggars belief that procurement of new diesel rolling stock would be considered or permitted.
Because you say it would be?
The fuel burn of tram trains to Marple would be negligible on a national or even city-scale.

This proposal is not an acceptable excuse for rejection of nearer term electrification of the SE Manchester lines.
It's not an excuse, it is simply that lines have to get into a queue with every other route.
 
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All very well and good but I think the West Midlands team should also do Birmingham to Leicester with the East Midlands team also doing Leicester to Peterborough with the Anglia team doing Ely to Peterborough/Norwich and Felixstowe to Ely as they would be infill schemes if the work in the post above is done.

I agree; but this needs to be looked at in the round.

Most of the intermodal trains from Felixstowe which use the routes mentioned are hauled by class 66 locos, built between 1998 and 2015; consequently, these are likely to remain as prime movers of those trains for at least 10 more years. When EMR and Anglia have finished their rolling stock replacement programmes, all passenger services will be operated by either 170s or 755s; the former will remain around for at least 10 years, the 755s for much longer, but what will happen to the XC services - presently also operated by 170s - is unclear, but it's reasonable to assume that these will remain more or less as now.

So there is little to be gained by electrifying the lines mentioned during the initial 10 year period, but they would all be ideal for doing in the second tranche; by that time, the oldest of the 66s will be over 30 years old and the 170s would also be in the 25-30 year old bracket, and perhaps they could then find a home working out the remainder of their days on some country branch lines somewhere (say in Devon and Cornwall).

But all of this comes back to the last point I made; either the DfT or a new body, perhaps similar to the defunct Strategic Rail Authority, needs to take on an overall responsibility for planning so that electrification schemes can be implemented to a programme which gives most benefit, and cascades can be planned for the diesel traction released from those schemes. Of course this would be extremely difficult for freight, but could not access charges be structured in such a way so that operators are incentivised to change from diesel to electric? Traction for electric hauled freight would really need to have (at least) a last mile diesel capability.
 

158756

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The TfGM proposal for tram-trains to Marple, as described in its draft 2020-25 Delivery Plan, is a longer term project that would be delivered later than 2025, subject to feasibility studies, funding and business case approval. On that timescale it beggars belief that procurement of new diesel rolling stock would be considered or permitted.

This proposal is not an acceptable excuse for rejection of nearer term electrification of the SE Manchester lines.

I think it's unlikely any new electrification scheme announced now could be delivered before 2025, and unless Marple is a top priority probably 2030s, 2040s. In any case, even if electrification was significantly quicker than tram conversion, that's surely a minor benefit against the much better service and massively improved financial position Metrolink offers.
 

158756

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Will Felixstowe Branch actually lead to much electric freight?

Aren't all the spare electric locomotives still owned by DB Schenker?
Given freights reticence to spend any money I am skeptical they will spend any resources to buy new freight locomotives.

I think given the current glut of EMU stock, priority should be schemes that allow productive use of those EMUs.

So Manchester suburban and things like that.
Chiltern would allow redeployment of all the surplus Class 319s and Class 365s for relatively little track mileage.

The obvious solution to this problem seems to me that lines should be considered only on the passenger services which could go over to electric operation - as you suggest, if Felixstowe were electrified (presumably not all the way into the port anyway) we could well get a situation with the shiny new wires going almost unused while freight continues on diesel. If private businesses (or the German state railways) want to bump their preferred routes up the queue perhaps they should come up with some of the money themselves.
 

Winthorpe

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In the north west of England, it would make a lot of sense to finish some of the work that is linked to the recently-completed electrification of Blackpool - Preston - Manchester. Specifically the spur from Lostock - Wigan and the section from Oxenholme - Windermere.

Lostock - Wigan would likely encounter the same problems with the poor ground conditions that plagued Bolton - Preston. It would make a lot of sense to tackle that job while the experience of Bolton - Preston is still fresh.
 

Wtloild

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For the same reasons as the Windermere line (reduce diesel running under wires), should the Barrow line also be done?

There are also slot of diesel services running into the unhealthily enclosed Man Vic.
Wires to Stalybridge & Wigan would ease this, but to Rochdale also could also, with the added benefit of allowing electrics from NW Manc to terminate there, rather than taking up through platforms at Vic.

Has there ever been any talk about extending wires from Bromsgrove onwards to Bristol?
Enable fully electric Manchester-Bristol trains, reducing smog within New Street?
 

HSTEd

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The tragedy of the commons.... This argument can be deployed against almost any small scale/local scheme to reduce pollution or avert global heating.
Well small scale/local schemes are normally used as an excuse to avoid doing anything that actually make a significant difference.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Is one of the best things the government could do be to fund an electrification academy, like there is/was a tunnelling one?
Bring the cost and resource issues down by increasing the number of competent people, and a few teaching jobs for those not up to nights out in the wilds any more.
Stick it in an area of high unemployment where locals will be more willing to adopt a nomadic or weekly commuting lifestyle (Teeside in line with previous politically cynical comments!!)
Sounds like a fantastic idea. I would have said Derby but yes the Northeast would be good too.
 

Jack Hay

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For the same reasons as the Windermere line (reduce diesel running under wires), should the Barrow line also be done?

There are also slot of diesel services running into the unhealthily enclosed Man Vic.
Wires to Stalybridge & Wigan would ease this, but to Rochdale also could also, with the added benefit of allowing electrics from NW Manc to terminate there, rather than taking up through platforms at Vic.

Has there ever been any talk about extending wires from Bromsgrove onwards to Bristol?
Enable fully electric Manchester-Bristol trains, reducing smog within New Street?
The big attraction of doing Windermere rather than Barrow is that it is easy and very cheap. It is ten miles of single track line. There isn't even one turnout to wire, the junction at Oxenholme being done already. Barrow would be a lot more work.
 

Bald Rick

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All very well and good but I think the West Midlands team should also do Birmingham to Leicester with the East Midlands team also doing Leicester to Peterborough with the Anglia team doing Ely to Peterborough/Norwich and Felixstowe to Ely as they would be infill schemes if the work in the post above is done.

To be honest, I was thinking more about those responsible for design/project management rather than those actually doing the physical work; although the teams responsible for carrying out the work will have gained great expertise over the last few years - and this should be retained if possible - they are still largely doing what they are told, and I was thinking in terms of maintaining and capitalising upon the knowledge/expertise of the tellers rather than the doers.

There might be a misunderstanding of how electrification projects are planned, designed and constructed. For most projects, the OLE work is rather less than a third of the work by value, so the expertise is needed in signalling, civils, station works, power supply, etc. Rebuilding a bridge forelectridication clearances is, at the end of the day, rebuilding a bridge. Planning resource for this exists everywhere in the country. Design - that goes to the relevant design house. NR have one, as do a few contractors (who also do work for other railways around the world). Location doesn’t matter. Some is done abroad.

For construction, the civils, signalling, stations and power supply is done by local resource, as it is normally. The specific OLE resource (piling, mast erection, small part steelwork, wiring) is often nomadic. Some of Scotland’s recent electrification was done by teams from Italy. Some was done by teams now doing the MML. In future, there is a proposal to train up the future maintenance staff to install it - they’ll have a much better.understandimg if how to look after it if they put it up in the first place, and it’s more than likely they’ll do a good quality job if they know they’ll be the ones fixing it if they don’t!

I think it's unlikely any new electrification scheme announced now could be delivered before 2025, and unless Marple is a top priority probably 2030s, 2040s. In any case, even if electrification was significantly quicker than tram conversion, that's surely a minor benefit against the much better service and massively improved financial position Metrolink offers.

That depends what you mean by new. I’d say that it is a dead cert that some electrification will be announced this year, and delivered in the run up to the next General Election. Most likely the paused schemes - but these will be sold as ‘new’ - only the ‘railway family’ know that it won’t be!
 
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The Ham

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they’ll have a much better.understandimg if how to look after it if they put it up in the first place, and it’s more than likely they’ll do a good quality job if they know they’ll be the ones fixing it if they don’t!

That sounds far too sensible, what's thinking like that doing on our railways!
 

td97

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The main setbacks for previous electrification projects have been cost and time overruns. The way to restart is simple and cheap electrification - think low route mileage and no big power kit requirement/feeder stations etc. That provides 3 immediate examples - Windermere to Oxenholme, Lostock to Wigan, and (1km east of) Victoria to Stalybridge; all can be powered using predominantly existing infrastructure. Test beds to ensure lessons have been learnt, optimised for a low £/stk.

An interesting quote from the Guardian today states that alongside the supposed HS2 announcement on Tuesday:
Downing Street made it clear last night that the green light for HS2 would be accompanied by details of a range of other infrastructure projects, particularly for the north of England.
So perhaps worth keeping an eye on developments this week.
 
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