Service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Horizon22]

@johnsmith147 has just come up with exactly this and posted about it in this thread.

So now we know it can be done.

As stated though, that isn't what this is showing.

Certainly it is possible in the future, but it's also partly around resourcing (both time and staffing) to get everything aligned.

 

[Minstral25]

They will terminate trains short if there's a driver to take the unit back who isn't waiting at its original destination. But some stations may not be able to do this, such as WGC terminating a 12 car train on platform 1 which can't fit into the reverse siding to start back. Starting from platform 1 means having to reposition to be behind the ground signal, then cross over the ECML to the down side, and I'm sure there are many other examples that mean turning trains early isn't always a good idea even if it was possible.

I have no idea what the track layouts are like south of Blackfriars, but I'm sure my example above is a factor.

There are plenty of instances of terminating northbound trains at Letchworth and southbound trains at Three Bridges.

But reversals at Letchworth or three Bridges can't work if there are traincrew changes at Cambridge or Brighton.

What I meant is that there is no facility to turn a Northbound Train south of the Core except at London Bridge, which GTR are very reluctant to do. This means if there is a problem along a route North or South of the Core, almost no trains run on that route run south of the core. The expectation that the limited Southern services can cover it, which does not happen along the Redhill section which is mostly Thameslink only (other than the 4 coach Reigate trains which are not suited to covering for Thameslink services)

I was trying to highlight the OP's original issue of lack of service recovery affects both north and south of the core, and in some places is worse south.

 

[Bald Rick]

But it doesn't follow that forecasting the future can't be done.

“All models are wrong, but some are at least useful”

 

[sharpener]

On a simple line of route yes.

Try mapling a delay to a crosscountry service at Darlington, and what that does to New St 3 hours later.

Yes but the original context for my suggestion was more modest, to help optimise the use of the ECML between Hitchin and King's Cross by identfying possible overtaking opportunities. This is a more bounded problem and sprang out of a related discussion on optimising train arrival times at the approach to the 2-track section.

This kind of problem is not unique to the railway. Planning how to make best use of scarce resources (in this case track space) is for example a constituent of many production engineering and project management decisions, and so is also related to OR which IIRC was developed in WWII. So like @johnsmith147 I was surprised that something like this was not already in use.

Unless in fact (a) Luminate does this and (b) is in use on the ECML

 

[MikeWM]

4-week rolling average looking quite a bit better after a couple of weeks without a meltdown.



Still not great though - eg. in the last week the 1739 has been 4L, RT, 7L, 8L, 6L at Ely. Small delays are obviously better than long ones or meltdowns, but they get very tedious when they happen almost every night (and are comparatively large when the journey (CMB-ELY) is only supposed to be 13 minutes to begin with).

The only RT in the last week is on Friday, when things generally seem to perform better - probably because there is time allocated for the peak services to split at Cambridge, but this service doesn't split on Fridays, so can make up a few minutes.

 

[jon0844]

Was nice to see trains used on the fast lines this morning to actually run fast for recovery and not just get trapped behind another train. Perhaps someone has been reading this thread!

 

[Spartacus]

Over recent years I've often observed that GTR, both on GN and MML, seemed to be a lot more interested in service recovery when it's one of their incidents than a Network Rail or other operator one, but just recently that seems to have noticeably changed. Maybe someone read them the riot act or maybe it's got something to do with implementation of 'failures to mitigate' protocol, but whatever it is it seems to be working.

 

[MikeWM]

Was nice to see trains used on the fast lines this morning to actually run fast for recovery and not just get trapped behind another train. Perhaps someone has been reading this thread!

Yesterday evening the Letchworth terminator 1L48 was about 5 late at Hitchin, and it seems to have been held until 1T48 (the 1739 KGX-KLN) went past, so 1T48 got to Letchworth first and wasn't held up for 7+ minutes by the terminator (as has happened frequently over the past few months). As such it was only 2 minutes late getting me home to Ely.

Hopefully we can see more of that sort of thing.

 

[notverydeep]

A quick GN recovery question - can 'up' (London bound) 2CXX (or 2LXX / 2RXX) trains worked by 387s call at Alexandra Palace platform 1 and then use the route via Up Slow Two to Finsbury Park? I was aboard 2C15 this morning (07:56 from Cambridge), which caught up a Moorgate train just after New Southgate. The Up Slow Two route was clear and would have been available, but was not used even though this would potentially have avoided 2C15 gaining another two to three minutes of lateness...

 

[whoosh]

A quick GN recovery question - can 'up' (London bound) 2CXX (or 2LXX / 2RXX) trains worked by 387s call at Alexandra Palace platform 1 and then use the route via Up Slow Two to Finsbury Park? I was aboard 2C15 this morning (07:56 from Cambridge), which caught up a Moorgate train just after New Southgate. The Up Slow Two route was clear and would have been available, but was not used even though this would potentially have avoided 2C15 gaining another two to three minutes of lateness...

Yes. It's frustrating this option isn't used very often.

 

[Failed Unit]

I expect a few posts this morning depending on how long the power problems disruption last.

last night however was a typical interesting situation.

A service from Moorgate - Gordon Hill failed just before old street (you could see its headlights). 1742 was expected departure.

As a result the following service for Stevenage and Welwyn Garden city were held a Moorgate. Services south were held on platforms where possible.

No announcements were made at old street to direct visitors passengers to Kings Cross despite the platforms getting over crowded.

Once the service did resume the 1750 Moorgate- Welwyn Garden city ran fast from Finsbury Park. I assume to help with recovery. You all guessed it - on the slow lines. So passengers at the intermediate stations were forced to leave, while us heading to Welwyn Garden City, still stopped at most stations (and just before them as the platform was often occupied).

 

[jon0844]

Service this morning has been a mess, with trains having to be cut and others running on half power to avoid multiple power tripping events at Hitchin. And I believe earlier in the morning there had been signalling problems near Royston.

The infrastructure issues are becoming so common now that I can't see how anyone can rely on the ECML. So much of the maintenance is reactive, not proactive, so they'll likely keep happening too.

 

[GN Boy]

Service this morning has been a mess, with trains having to be cut and others running on half power to avoid multiple power tripping events at Hitchin. And I believe earlier in the morning there had been signalling problems near Royston.

The infrastructure issues are becoming so common now that I can't see how anyone can rely on the ECML. So much of the maintenance is reactive, not proactive, so they'll likely keep happening too.

Regular temporary speed restrictions that remain for weeks and even months on end are not too uncommon these days. The railway feels very unloved at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

A broken rail now south of Potters Bar is likely to cause fun and games for the rest of the day, or at least up to the evening peak.

 

[bramling]

A broken rail now south of Potters Bar is likely to cause fun and games for the rest of the day.

My first time using the train for a couple of weeks … and on cue most of the Cambridge/Brighton seems to be missing, and I’m on a 2xxx service which has lost 10 minutes by Stevenage.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sadly today it won’t recover. Track defect at Potters Bar means things are getting worse. (As per Jon’s post)

 

[notverydeep]

On the bright side, my Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks train (9Y19 0902 ex WGC) did get to use the Up Slow Two line between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park to overtake a train to Moorgate (perhaps someone read my earlier post) and better, it was only a couple of minutes late, despite the delays to other trains.

 

[bramling]

Sadly today it won’t recover. Track defect at Potters Bar means things are getting worse. (As per Jon’s post)

Lost even more and I’m not even at Welwyn North. Sat at Woolmer Green Junction despite nothing coming past, and then saw the signal go straight from red to green…

Also, the quality of this driver’s driving isn’t great. Very poor technique especially braking, so losing some further time thanks to that.

 

[jon0844]

My first time using the train for a couple of weeks … and on cue most of the Cambridge/Brighton seems to be missing, and I’m on a 2xxx service which has lost 10 minutes by Stevenage.

I think the Brighton trains were cut to reduce the trains through Hitchin for fear of tripping the power again. And with them all on half power...

Sadly today it won’t recover. Track defect at Potters Bar means things are getting worse. (As per Jon’s post)

The line is re-open now, but I think all of the issues in the morning are still going to take some time to get back to normal.

Lost even more and I’m not even at Welwyn North. Sat at Woolmer Green Junction despite nothing coming past, and then saw the signal go straight from red to green…

Also, the quality of this driver’s driving isn’t great. Very poor technique especially braking, so losing some further time thanks to that.

Could this have been because the drivers were told to run on reduced power and maybe not accelerate too hard? I am sure moving a train from a stand consumes a fair whack of energy.

 

[bramling]

Could this have been because the drivers were told to run on reduced power and maybe not accelerate too hard? I am sure moving a train from a stand consumes a fair whack of energy.

It’s more his braking. For every station stop he is throwing in the brakes heavily for a couple of seconds, coasting for a while, then throwing in heavily again. Repeating the cycle maybe 10-15 times per stop. It’s hideous.

Now 12 late at Potters Bar…

Edit … now 20 late at Finsbury Park. Pretty unimpressed all round.

 

[Steve Harris]

It’s more his braking. For every station stop he is throwing in the brakes heavily for a couple of seconds, coasting for a while, then throwing in heavily again. Repeating the cycle maybe 10-15 times per stop. It’s hideous.

Now 12 late at Potters Bar…

I wonder if it's got anything to do with 'regen' and how much electricity the train is making (under braking) and putting back into the OHLE !?

 

[bramling]

I wonder if it's got anything to do with 'regen' and how much electricity the train is making (under braking) and putting back into the OHLE !?

It’s just the driver. I’ve had exactly the same before .. as soon as I saw him walking down the platform at Hitchin I knew it was going to be a tedious journey.

 

[Bikeman78]

Was nice to see trains used on the fast lines this morning to actually run fast for recovery and not just get trapped behind another train. Perhaps someone has been reading this thread!

I saw a SWR 455 that ran on the fast line from Surbiton to Waterloo recently. As opposed to the usual process of staying on the slow line, missing all the stops, but only making up two minutes because it's inevitably following an on time stopper.

 

[Robski]

On my commute in recent weeks I have noticed an increase in situations where a Thameslink train scheduled to run fast between Stevenage and Finsbury Park makes an additional unscheduled operational stop at Welwyn GC to pick up/set down a driver, which results in a delay of three to five minutes.

What is more bizarre is that this usually involves the Peterborough to Horsham services, where usually there is a Cambridge/Letchworth stopper a few minutes in front at Welwyn/Stevenage. Is there any reason why these drivers can't be ferried on services booked to call at Welwyn?

 

[GN Boy]

On my commute in recent weeks I have noticed an increase in situations where a Thameslink train scheduled to run fast between Stevenage and Finsbury Park makes an additional unscheduled operational stop at Welwyn GC to pick up/set down a driver, which results in a delay of three to five minutes.

What is more bizarre is that this usually involves the Peterborough to Horsham services, where usually there is a Cambridge/Letchworth stopper a few minutes in front at Welwyn/Stevenage. Is there any reason why these drivers can't be ferried on services booked to call at Welwyn?

I’ve been collected via staff pick up from Welwyn a couple of times during disruption and usually it’s to ferry me to a location that would otherwise result in me being late to relieve a service should I have taken the 2C/2L stopper.

 

[jon0844]

On my commute in recent weeks I have noticed an increase in situations where a Thameslink train scheduled to run fast between Stevenage and Finsbury Park makes an additional unscheduled operational stop at Welwyn GC to pick up/set down a driver, which results in a delay of three to five minutes.

What is more bizarre is that this usually involves the Peterborough to Horsham services, where usually there is a Cambridge/Letchworth stopper a few minutes in front at Welwyn/Stevenage. Is there any reason why these drivers can't be ferried on services booked to call at Welwyn?

A lot of GN Inner services rely on drivers coming from places like Hitchin. If the regular stopping service is cancelled, something has to stop to drop the driver off - or pick up one going pass to Finsbury Park (or likewise on a northbound service not usually scheduled to call). Otherwise even more chaos will occur.

I can only assume it happens with Peterborough services because of disruption that might mean a driver missing a connection at Hitchin or Stevenage if they came from further up the PBO line.

 

[TSGN Spotter]

A few London kings cross - Kings Lynn services showing a 4 car sets this morning namely 1T11 and 1T06.
(And the rest of there respective diagrams)

 

[jon0844]

A few London kings cross - Kings Lynn services showing a 4 car sets this morning namely 1T11 and 1T06.
(And the rest of there respective diagrams)

A few errors this morning it seems, as some 4 car trains were actually running as 12.

In addition, a fire reported at Knebworth had the power turned off for 20 minutes or so.

 

[MikeWM]

Tonight is the first time I go for 1T50 (the 1839 at Cambridge North) in a couple of weeks, and I see it is already delayed 6 minutes due to 1L48 (the Letchworth terminator) arriving 1 minute late and then taking 8 minutes to clear the platform.

Looking back at the last week at 1L48 at Letchworth:
- Wednesday : arrived 2 late, took 6 minutes to clear, delayed 1T50 by 5 minutes
- Thursday : arrived on time but took 11 (!) minutes to clear, then there was a very late stopper between that and 1T50, delaying 1T50 by 12 minutes.
- Friday : arrived 1 late, took 6 minutes to clear, delayed 1T50 by 5 minutes
- Yesterday : arrived on time, took 7 minutes to clear, delaying 1T50 by 4 minutes (which then itself sat at Letchworth for 11 minutes for some reason).

So it has delayed 1T50 every night in the last week by at least 4 minutes. I hope at some point they work out how to speed this up so we're not stuck like this for the rest of the year.


Edit on Wednesday 9th : 1L48 is cancelled tonight. 1T50 is currently on-time at Royston, for the first time in over 2 weeks (ie. March 25th, the day they let it go ahead of 1L48, as in my post #38 above).

 

[Class 170101]

An error by the sounds of it is terminating in a platform then needing to shunt clear, it seems, without sufficient time to do so. It sounds like this train (1L48) needs to run forward to Royston and terminate in the Up Platform if possible or onwards to Cambridge or it needs to wait on the Hitchin Flyover and follow 1T50 into Letchworth. Who knows whether any of these options are viable.