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Severn Barrage

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route:oxford

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One of the best things about sitting on a train is being able to read laptop screens and listen to conversations concerning topics that you'd normally think would be confidential - but can't possibly be because they are in the open-forum of public transport.

So this morning I enjoyed listening to two civil servant types who were visiting Edinburgh for the Festival discussing the Severn Barrage...

Apparently there is cross-party support for it...
  • Bringing 50,000 jobs throughout the 10 year construction period in an area of high unemployment.
  • A reliable and secure source of Carbon Neutral electricity.
  • New High Speed Severn Rail Crossing over the top of it - to mitigate on-going issues with the Severn Tunnel.

Oh, and apparently with the length and the fact that there would have to be road access for heavy plant & maintenance equipment - a "two nations" marathon to be run across it annually.
 
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anthony263

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Personally I think a barrage across the severn is a great idea even if it does have some bad points.

However we will have to look at how the railink will connect up with the GW mainline
 

Johnuk123

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I doubt very much that it will ever be built, certainly not in the next 30 years.
 

Holly

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...
[*]New High Speed Severn Rail Crossing over the top of it - to mitigate on-going issues with the Severn Tunnel.
...
Assuming a barrage is to include locks to pass ocean-going ships then putting an HS rail line on top of it would compromise the design to such an extent that it would be cheaper to build two separate constructions. Plus, if you do that then each can be optimally located instead of some kind of dual purpose compromise.

A tourist attraction, fair weather only, slow crossing on top of a barrage might come at near zero cost, but an all weather 24/7 one is a totally different animal.
 
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The Severn Barrage was one of Hitlers priorities when he took over GB!

There are studies of a barrage for many UK estuaries.
The Severn is by far the best one.
France has a successful one on the Rance.

Locks for boats. With a double lock a boat can be lowered so as to pass under a relatively low bridge. Boat enters, drops say 60 feet, passes under roads and then raised to the water level inside.
It should be constructed to improve navigation, shipping & small craft, not decimate it, and the addition of a high speed rail crossing, cheap power, could bring huge prosperity to Bristol & South Wales areas.
Would also act as Flood prevention - could save billions worth of damage in the future.
 
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DXMachina

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If our only moral barometer is being opposed to anything Hitler liked we'd have to look down on abstinence, Mercedes cars, sausages, France, tight leather trousers.. oh um wait...
 
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personally I think that its a good idea, I can see why some people would be against it, i.e wildlife concerns and that they often don't look particularly nice. but overall it is a good idea, jobs, green energy and it uses a renewable resource that we have rather a lot of in this country but for some reason don't utilise very much.

The Severn Barrage was one of Hitlers priorities when he took over GB!
I invoke Godwin's Law. /thread
 

sbt

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Locks for boats. With a double lock a boat can be lowered so as to pass under a relatively low bridge. Boat enters, drops say 60 feet, passes under roads and then raised to the water level inside.


There is also the 'Drop Lock', where there is only one lock, emptied for a vessel to pass under the obstruction, filled when it is the other side. There is less engineering but a safety risk related to filling the lock with a vessel under the obstruction.

I'm not sure how practical or economically viable dropping the waterway would be. Experience with canal restoration is that the amount of engineering required and other difficulties involved are often underestimated by engineers more used to road and rail.

Oh, and limiting ships to Panamax size would halve the size of shipping that can use Avonmouth.

There is a _lot_ of water involved in dropping a Panamax ship 60ft. Moving that amount by allowing it to run downhill, as on the Panama Canal, is relatively easy and fast. Moving it with pumps is going to involved a lot of engineering and power and may take some time, especially if two lockings are required. To give you some scale, it takes two 22ft diameter culverts to fill and drain a Panama Canal lock - that's about the size of a single track rail tunnel.

And that's after you have constructed the chamber - which, when you allow for water draft will be 100ft deep to drop a Panamax ship 60ft. There are good engineering reasons why the Panama Canal uses two locks to lift ships 54ft. The walls are 55ft thick at the base to handle the water pressure. A lock with a lift of 60ft (over twice the lift of a Panama lock) would need to be even thicker. Avoiding reducing the size of ships using Avonmouth would require locks capable of handling something around New-Panamax size (There is work going on to construct new, larger, locks on the Panama Canal). This would require the locks to be 120ft deep.

Looking around the web there are several plans for road and rail. Some cross the lock on a bridge. All require the road (and I assume the railway) to be elevated above the level of the Barrage to avoid the effects of storm waves.

The most likely solution for rail, and maybe road, if the crossing is 'flat', is _two_ movable bridges, one at each end of the lock. By definition only one set of gates is going to be open at a time. So traffic is diverted over the other, still open to rail traffic, bridge. I'm not sure how well it would work for road traffic though.

I would expect to see the moveable bridge(s) at least one end of the lock feature some modest amount of elevation, to allow vessels with a smaller air draft to transit the lock without requiring a bridge closure. If the elevated bridge was at only one end this would be the 'normally in use' bridge for rail and road traffic.

A mix of double movable bridges for rail traffic and an elevated bridge for road traffic, where gradients matter less, is obviously also an option.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I thought the barrage location was roughly Penarth to Weston.
That would be a longer run to Bristol than via the tunnel/bridges today, and would omit Newport.
And what tunnel problems? It's about to be electrified.
 

route:oxford

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I thought the barrage location was roughly Penarth to Weston.
That would be a longer run to Bristol than via the tunnel/bridges today, and would omit Newport.
And what tunnel problems? It's about to be electrified.

I'm not sure myself what the tunnel problems are, can you confirm that...

It can currently accommodate two HSTs passing one another at full speed?

It can currently accommodate W10 gauge freight?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm not sure myself what the tunnel problems are, can you confirm that...

It can currently accommodate two HSTs passing one another at full speed?
It can currently accommodate W10 gauge freight?

I don't know! :oops:
Maybe the cognoscenti will let us know.
I thought the electrification programme would clear all lines to W10, but there must be a practical limit to the tunnel (although oversize stuff could run via Gloucester).
I was under the impression that the only real tunnel problem was that it was "wet".
If NR can solve that problem to cater for electrification and IEP then it should be fit for a long time.
 

WatcherZero

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I doubt very much that it will ever be built, certainly not in the next 30 years.

Public funding of the work has been abandoned but word is theres a private money consortium (pension funds and gulf wealth funds) ready to proceed. Theyve modified the design a bit to maximise the return, allowing it to generate energy with tides in both directions rather than just a ebbing tide, minimised environmental (and therefore liability) damage and sticking a road and a rail line on top.
 

John55

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How much shipping uses Avonmouth now is larger than Panamax?

Avonmouth's locks are nowhere near Panamax. I think you mean how many large ships use Royal Portbury.

The coal ships use Royal Portbury and the coal is taken by conveyor under the river to Avonmouth to be loaded on the trains.
 

sbt

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How much shipping uses Avonmouth now is larger than Panamax?

I got my data from the company website which says 'routinely used by up to 130,000 DWT'. So no data on what 'routinely' means.

I'm not so sure that what the state is now matters that much. Up until recently my job involved knowing a bit about commercial shipping and a key point was that the size of individual ships was getting larger. Smaller ports are feeling the pinch as a result and other ports are increasing the size of ship they can handle. Capping the size of ships that can use Avonmouth at, say, Panamax, would be likely to result in its slow but inevitable death.

The size increase is, as far as I understand it, being driven by several issues, including crew costs. Automation is allowing the crews for large ships to be reduced to the same level as that required for smaller ones in earlier decades. Improvements in shipbuilding technology have also made it easier, and therefore cheaper, to build larger ships. Construction in 'blocks' in smaller satellite shipyards, as with the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers, allows the large Dry Docks that can take the finished ship to be used for 'final assembly' only, allowing them to be used for more ships per year than in the days when the whole ship was built in one piece. The large engines required for these ships have also become more available.

An example of what we are talking about is that a Panamax Container Ship will carry 5,000 Twenty Foot Equivalent Units (TEU) of containers. A New Panamax size ship will carry around 13,000 TEU with approximately the same crew (typically around 12).

Similar size increases have also been seen in terms of Tankers and Bulk Carriers.

PS: The increase in ship sizes is the reason for 'New Panamax'. Ship owners were finding it more economical to own a larger ship that went the 'long way round' and took longer to arrive than to own two or more smaller ships that arrived quicker via the Panama Canal. Hence the Panama Canal was seeing a steady reduction in revenue and was forced into major expenditure on new locks and other navigation works in order to stay viable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Avonmouth's locks are nowhere near Panamax. I think you mean how many large ships use Royal Portbury.

The coal ships use Royal Portbury and the coal is taken by conveyor under the river to Avonmouth to be loaded on the trains.

Indeed, I was using 'Avonmouth' as a shorthand for both sets of docks.
 
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hwl

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If we are thinking big, why not construct a new port facility just to the south of the barrage capable of taking very large ships?

There would effectively be good rail connections if you were going to put a rail line over the barrage and for construction purposes you would need good road access and a prefabrication / laydown area on shore that would be surplus after the construction that could have useful 2nd life ("legacy" in Olympic terms) as a port if suitably designed in the first place.
 
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If we are thinking big, why not construct a new port facility just to the south of the barrage capable of taking very large ships?

There would effectively be good rail connections if you were going to put a rail line over the barrage and for construction purposes you would need good road access and a prefabrication / laydown area on shore that would be surplus after the construction that could have useful 2nd life ("legacy" in Olympic terms) as a port if suitably designed in the first place.

I suspect it depends how big they make the barrage, Bristol is a good location. A new port could be an excellent idea.
Building a new structure, imo, it would be unthinkable to restrict the size of boats going through the barrage based on estimated maximum sizes likely in the next 25 yrs that could use Bristol Port facilities.
One solution, as well as the lock, could be to have a section of barrage that could be dropped for a short while around 1 hour each side of high water.
That would involve having a swing/ lifting bridge for road or rail.
 

Holly

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I suspect it depends how big they make the barrage, Bristol is a good location. A new port could be an excellent idea.
.
A barrage makes it no longer a good location for a modern commercial port though.

On the other hand, the inevitable calming of the waters is a big incentive to develop a major pleasure (and historic) boating centre.
 

Tiny Tim

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Both Portbury and Avonmouth are entered via a lock, Portbury's is the largest in the UK. Any lock in a barrage would need to be at least equal to this. Assuming more than one lock was provided, capacity wouldn't be a problem, although the time delay might be.

Building a rail link over the barrage is also perfectly feasible, the only problem arises where the railway crosses the ship locks. As has already been stated, a fixed bridge would need to allow headroom for shipping (and would be a magnificent sight) but a moveable bridge or bridges would be a cheaper option. As suggested by SBT, a rail route over both top and bottom gates would reduce conflict between shipping and rail traffic.

The estimated maximum cost of a barrage is about the same as Phase 1 of HS2, over £30 billion. Private investment might be attracted, although anyone who got their fingers burned with the Channel Tunnel might give it a miss.
 

eps200

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Would it not be viable to have a new large port with river berths only and have panamax and bellow go all the way up. anything post panamax breaks bulk here loading onto road, rail, coastal freight and river barge.
River barges are rather economical the Mersey is already moving toward such a system based on the successes had on the Rhine.
 

Trog

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How about dipping the road and railway under the shipping channel in a reasonably short tunnel. Should be the cheapest option long term as there are no moving parts.
 

route:oxford

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How about dipping the road and railway under the shipping channel in a reasonably short tunnel. Should be the cheapest option long term as there are no moving parts.

You mean leave a gaping hole in the barrage?
 

Requeststop

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If our only moral barometer is being opposed to anything Hitler liked we'd have to look down on abstinence, Mercedes cars, sausages, France, tight leather trousers.. oh um wait...
You forgot dogs!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apparently there is cross-party support for it...
  • Bringing 50,000 jobs throughout the 10 year construction period in an area of high unemployment.
  • A reliable and secure source of Carbon Neutral electricity.
  • New High Speed Severn Rail Crossing over the top of it - to mitigate on-going issues with the Severn Tunnel.

QUOTE]

Very nice on the jobs front, and an excellent idea for the High Speed crossing across the Severn, it may even tempt me to visit South Wales, but the idea of Carbon Neutral electricity I'm afraid will not work. It will increase the usage of electricity but in the end it will still warm the planet. I wish politicians would study and try to understand that we use too much energy no matter how much we try to change to non carbon fuel to produce it.

The fact that we use more energy for everything from our home comforts, towards better and faster train services using electricity and the internet and all sorts of things means that in the end due to the Laws of the Conservation of energy, we still heat our planet. The law is simple: Energy in a system may take on various forms (e.g. kinetic, potential, heat, light mechanical, electrical, nuclear etc.). The law of conservation of energy states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in the system is a constant.

The heat energy generated into the atmosphere from all our use of power is warming the planet. The more energy we use the more heat we put into the atmosphere. What we have to do to stop this is use less energy. Yes, more efficient production of energy would help too. The Severn Barrage may well mean that we don't build a few dangerous Nuclear power station, or oil/gas/fossil fuel power stations, and may well power a wonderful electrified rail system in the West and Wales but I fear will encourage more energy use to the detriment to our wonderful planet.
 
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AeroSpace

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The heat energy generated into the atmosphere from all our use of power is warming the planet. The more energy we use the more heat we put into the atmosphere. What we have to do to stop this is use less energy. Yes, more efficient production of energy would help too. The Severn Barrage may well mean that we don't build a few dangerous Nuclear power station, or oil/gas/fossil fuel power stations, and may well power a wonderful electrified rail system in the West and Wales but I fear will encourage more energy use to the detriment to our wonderful planet.

The heat generated by human use of electrical power has no measurable effect on the climate.
 

Greenback

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ainsworth74 is correct. I suggest Railsigns provides relevant sources to back up their own claims before demanding that others prove theirs!
 
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