Severn valley railway news and updates.

[satisnek]

The King and Castle is, I believe, only opening Thursday to Sunday at the moment.

It is indeed and only open late on Friday and Saturday. Sadly, it would appear that the SVR management is running it into the ground, seemingly with a view to closure, and has been doing so ever since life restarted in July 2021 (with tricks like closing before the advertised time, etc.). They've alienated most of the regulars, who now drink elsewhere with no intention of going back. However, the recently restored and reopened Chester Tavern, less than half a mile away (go over the 'main line' and turn left at the traffic lights) is well worth a visit.

 

[D6968]

It is indeed and only open late on Friday and Saturday. Sadly, it would appear that the SVR management is running it into the ground, seemingly with a view to closure, and has been doing so ever since life restarted in July 2021 (with tricks like closing before the advertised time, etc.). They've alienated most of the regulars, who now drink elsewhere with no intention of going back. However, the recently restored and reopened Chester Tavern, less than half a mile away (go over the 'main line' and turn left at the traffic lights) is well worth a visit.

I don’t think that’s quite the truth is it?

 

[fireftrm]

It is indeed and only open late on Friday and Saturday. Sadly, it would appear that the SVR management is running it into the ground, seemingly with a view to closure, and has been doing so ever since life restarted in July 2021 (with tricks like closing before the advertised time, etc.). They've alienated most of the regulars, who now drink elsewhere with no intention of going back. However, the recently restored and reopened Chester Tavern, less than half a mile away (go over the 'main line' and turn left at the traffic lights) is well worth a visit.

The Weavers Ale House, just down the hill from the station (about 200m), Station Tavern, over the main line first right (about 300m) are both excellent ale houses. The Chester seems to offer fewer real ales and their website advertises Lagers!

 

[satisnek]

I don’t think that’s quite the truth is it?

I'm afraid that it's not a million miles from the truth. If you pay a visit during the day (e.g. on an SVR operating day) then everything seems hunky dory. But the King & Castle was built with the intention of being a year-round income stream for the SVR, in other words, a community pub.

Until March 2020 it had a modest but steady weekday evening trade (up until closing time at 11pm), with, of course, a much higher patronage at weekends. After the last of the legislative detritus was removed in July 2021 they persisted with the 10pm closing time (extended to 11pm Friday and Saturday) with the result that returning regulars going for 'the last hour' were told, "Sorry, we're closed". And the staff merrily shuffled the definitions of 'last orders', 'closing time' and 'drinking-up time' so in practice they stopped serving at anything up to half an hour before these times.

Then last Autumn the opening hours were slashed, with the pub closing completely on Mondays and Tuesdays. It was closed for the whole month of January this year for, I believe, essential work to be carried out on the building and then when it reopened the hours were cut further still.

The Weavers (a short distance down the hill), the Station (in Farfield) and now the Chester Tavern are thriving. Despite the cost of living squeeze, people are still going to pubs. But a pub needs to attract them. The SVR is doing nothing of the sort.

 

[D6968]

I'm afraid that it's not a million miles from the truth. If you pay a visit during the day (e.g. on an SVR operating day) then everything seems hunky dory. But the King & Castle was built with the intention of being a year-round income stream for the SVR, in other words, a community pub.

Until March 2020 it had a modest but steady weekday evening trade (up until closing time at 11pm), with, of course, a much higher patronage at weekends. After the last of the legislative detritus was removed in July 2021 they persisted with the 10pm closing time (extended to 11pm Friday and Saturday) with the result that returning regulars going for 'the last hour' were told, "Sorry, we're closed". And the staff merrily shuffled the definitions of 'last orders', 'closing time' and 'drinking-up time' so in practice they stopped serving at anything up to half an hour before these times.

Then last Autumn the opening hours were slashed, with the pub closing completely on Mondays and Tuesdays. It was closed for the whole month of January this year for, I believe, essential work to be carried out on the building and then when it reopened the hours were cut further still.

The Weavers (a short distance down the hill), the Station (in Farfield) and now the Chester Tavern are thriving. Despite the cost of living squeeze, people are still going to pubs. But a pub needs to attract them. The SVR is doing nothing of the sort.

I do work in the licensed trade so I do have an understanding of how things work, I really don’t think those previously at the top of the SVR have though.

Under previous management I’ve found the beer at the K&C to be rather up and down but under a change of management didn’t it win a camera award for improved pub some time ago?

I do however think you are being very silly in saying that the current management want to run it into the ground.
Personally I think the SVR have what could be an asset but at the moment it’s like most of us in hospitality, try getting a decent manager and staff.
It’s really not that easy.

I think your being a bit dramatic, in describing what’s happening at the K&C but I won’t disagree that the SVR’s on a slippery slope regarding its opening times regarding the K&C.
Much as I’d say just get a decent bar manager how could that be justified if your having to make other people redundant 16 miles away?

 

[Dai Corner]

I do work in the licensed trade so I do have an understanding of how things work, I really don’t think those previously at the top of the SVR have though.

Under previous management I’ve found the beer at the K&C to be rather up and down but under a change of management didn’t it win a camera award for improved pub some time ago?

I do however think you are being very silly in saying that the current management want to run it into the ground.
Personally I think the SVR have what could be an asset but at the moment it’s like most of us in hospitality, try getting a decent manager and staff.
It’s really not that easy.

I think your being a bit dramatic, in describing what’s happening at the K&C but I won’t disagree that the SVR’s on a slippery slope regarding its opening times regarding the K&C.
Much as I’d say just get a decent bar manager how could that be justified if your having to make other people redundant 16 miles away?

How about leasing the premises to a tenant and concentrating on running a railway?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

A well run catering operation can be extremely lucrative. Similarly such things can be real money pits. To this complete outsider Bridgnorth does appear to have plenty of competing pubs.

In a little while it will be interesting to compare how various lines have recovered from Covid. Some have had their best years ever whilst others have had great difficulties. Why?

 

[Neen Sollars]

Yes the Weaver`s and Station Inn pubs have been taking trade from the King & Castle. Main reason of course is that the K&C has been either closed or operating differing opening days, or worse still differing opening hours, meaning last orders could be called soon after you walk in. Its not good, just hope things become more settled when spring and summer finally arrive.

 

[satisnek]

I do work in the licensed trade so I do have an understanding of how things work, I really don’t think those previously at the top of the SVR have though.

Under previous management I’ve found the beer at the K&C to be rather up and down but under a change of management didn’t it win a camera award for improved pub some time ago?

I do however think you are being very silly in saying that the current management want to run it into the ground.
Personally I think the SVR have what could be an asset but at the moment it’s like most of us in hospitality, try getting a decent manager and staff.
It’s really not that easy.

I think you're being a bit dramatic, in describing what’s happening at the K&C but I won’t disagree that the SVR’s on a slippery slope regarding its opening times regarding the K&C.
Much as I’d say just get a decent bar manager how could that be justified if you're having to make other people redundant 16 miles away?

Yes, it changed management in 2016, and apparently again during 2020/1.

I actually said "it would appear that the SVR management is running it into the ground", not "the current management want to run it into the ground". I don't think the personal jibe is necessary.

You're welcome to think that I'm being a bit dramatic, indeed I probably was in my first post, but please note that I'm reporting directly from the East Kidderminster pub scene

 

[Trainlog]

I do hope that as these 2 galas is running in a time that the SVR does have some uncertainty around it, that the gala's are at least successful financially and as a good event. i would like to see that if people are going to watch it rather than ride it at least call into one of the stations and buy a coffee just so that the line is making some revenue, even if its a few quid.

I know i said this on another thread but i reckon its better to buy a coffee there than buying a mega chain high street coffee on the day as at least the line makes some revenue whilst hosting large galas and it's the least you can do to help if your not riding that day.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I do hope that as these 2 galas is running in a time that the SVR does have some uncertainty around it, that the gala's are at least successful financially and as a good event. i would like to see that if people are going to watch it rather than ride it at least call into one of the stations and buy a coffee just so that the line is making some revenue, even if its a few quid.

I know i said this on another thread but i reckon its better to buy a coffee there than buying a mega chain high street coffee on the day as at least the line makes some revenue whilst hosting large galas and it's the least you can do to help if your not riding that day.

Perhaps inadvertently you have identified the basic problem with galas. This is whether they actually cost more to put on than they take.

 

[paul1609]

I do hope that as these 2 galas is running in a time that the SVR does have some uncertainty around it, that the gala's are at least successful financially and as a good event. i would like to see that if people are going to watch it rather than ride it at least call into one of the stations and buy a coffee just so that the line is making some revenue, even if its a few quid.

I know i said this on another thread but i reckon its better to buy a coffee there than buying a mega chain high street coffee on the day as at least the line makes some revenue whilst hosting large galas and it's the least you can do to help if your not riding that day.

Unfortunately the issue is that Heritage Railway Catering can no longer support the core activities in the way that it once did and in many cases its provision is now marginal especially if you are having to pay the staff. The profit margin has effectively been being undermined over a long period by the increasing minimum/ living wage, increased employment costs and now sky high energy costs. Your £3 coffee may now only been providing around 15p to support the transport of visiting locos to a gala when the costs run in to tens of thousands of pounds.

 

[Titfield]

Unfortunately the issue is that Heritage Railway Catering can no longer support the core activities in the way that it once did and in many cases its provision is now marginal especially if you are having to pay the staff. The profit margin has effectively been being undermined over a long period by the increasing minimum/ living wage, increased employment costs and now sky high energy costs. Your £3 coffee may now only been providing around 15p to support the transport of visiting locos to a gala when the costs run in to tens of thousands of pounds.

It would be very informative to know what % of catering staff on a heritage railway were "volunteer" say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago and now. I suspect that on many HRs the % of volunteers has declined very considerably indeed. Also how many of those volunteers are effectively "supernumeraries" because the core work is being done by paid staff.

As @paul1609 has stated once you pay staff then the contribution after cost " is now marginal". Not only have labour costs gone up (on the assumption that staff are paid minimum / living wage) but those costs have gone up far quicker than inflation or the ability to pass on the cost to the consumer. Furthermore many heritage railways are seasonal and there are just no longer many people seeking seasonal work. If anything those who want seasonal work want to work in the winter so they can spend the summer doing other things (often travelling). Students who used part time work to supplement their grants / gain work experience seem to be a thing of the past. If you have to pay tuition fees and have a large student loan what is the point in earning relatively modest sums to barely put a dent in the debt.

It is all to easy to see an event as being successful because of the "trains being full", the platforms "packed" etc etc but I suspect that if the true costs of running an event were all taken into account, few make the level of profit that the effort and expenditure should command. When a gala is in full swing how many railways take into account the extra water consumed, the additional phone calls, the extra cleaning of the toilets, the cost of the extra waste removal (palladin bins) and dare I say it how often is the office photocopier working flat out to print a revised timetable to hand to passengers because there has been a last minute change caused by unforeseen circumstances.

It is so very easy to criticise heritage railway management but I often wonder what other decision they could have logically taken given they took the decision they did based on the facts available to them at the time of the decision.

A well run catering operation can be extremely lucrative. Similarly such things can be real money pits. To this complete outsider Bridgnorth does appear to have plenty of competing pubs.

I do agree with this statement by @Paul Hitchcock My question would be, based on an assumption that a well run (lucrative) catering operation requires good management and staff, how would many railways seek to attract those staff when they can not offer full time year round work or possibly the sort of career progression that good managers want?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I haven't been to the King and Castle in Kidderminster, but I have been to The Railwayman's Arms in Bridgnorth.

At first sight, they seem to be alike, as both are on or adjoining a station and both seem to be run by the Severn Valley Railway. I was recommended to go to the RA by a friend whose into real ale (as indeed I am!), and he wasn't mistaken. I travelled on the line to Kidderminster and went to the pub for the odd beer or several after getting back to Bridgnorth, and it was very good. I don't know who actually owns the pub (is it the railway?), but it seemed to be very well run and looked after. Without asking anyone, I could tell that the people there (and it was full for a while after the last train) were both locals and visitors - indeed, several people came into the pub well after the last train, so I assume that they were locals.

There are quite a few pubs in the town, many of which are noted for their real ales, and the RA is a decent walk from the centre (up a quite steep hill on the way back!), so it was good to see that it was well supported.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

It would be very informative to know what % of catering staff on a heritage railway were "volunteer" say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago and now. I suspect that on many HRs the % of volunteers has declined very considerably indeed. Also how many of those volunteers are effectively "supernumeraries" because the core work is being done by paid staff.

As @paul1609 has stated once you pay staff then the contribution after cost " is now marginal". Not only have labour costs gone up (on the assumption that staff are paid minimum / living wage) but those costs have gone up far quicker than inflation or the ability to pass on the cost to the consumer. Furthermore many heritage railways are seasonal and there are just no longer many people seeking seasonal work. If anything those who want seasonal work want to work in the winter so they can spend the summer doing other things (often travelling). Students who used part time work to supplement their grants / gain work experience seem to be a thing of the past. If you have to pay tuition fees and have a large student loan what is the point in earning relatively modest sums to barely put a dent in the debt.

It is all to easy to see an event as being successful because of the "trains being full", the platforms "packed" etc etc but I suspect that if the true costs of running an event were all taken into account, few make the level of profit that the effort and expenditure should command. When a gala is in full swing how many railways take into account the extra water consumed, the additional phone calls, the extra cleaning of the toilets, the cost of the extra waste removal (palladin bins) and dare I say it how often is the office photocopier working flat out to print a revised timetable to hand to passengers because there has been a last minute change caused by unforeseen circumstances.

It is so very easy to criticise heritage railway management but I often wonder what other decision they could have logically taken given they took the decision they did based on the facts available to them at the time of the decision.



I do agree with this statement by @Paul Hitchcock My question would be, based on an assumption that a well run (lucrative) catering operation requires good management and staff, how would many railways seek to attract those staff when they can not offer full time year round work or possibly the sort of career progression that good managers want?

There certainly are places where this has been done post Lockdown. The dramatic variation in how similar organisations have got going again since Covid struck is rather intriguing.

 

[paul1609]

It would be very informative to know what % of catering staff on a heritage railway were "volunteer" say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago and now. I suspect that on many HRs the % of volunteers has declined very considerably indeed. Also how many of those volunteers are effectively "supernumeraries" because the core work is being done by paid staff.

As @paul1609 has stated once you pay staff then the contribution after cost " is now marginal". Not only have labour costs gone up (on the assumption that staff are paid minimum / living wage) but those costs have gone up far quicker than inflation or the ability to pass on the cost to the consumer. Furthermore many heritage railways are seasonal and there are just no longer many people seeking seasonal work. If anything those who want seasonal work want to work in the winter so they can spend the summer doing other things (often travelling). Students who used part time work to supplement their grants / gain work experience seem to be a thing of the past. If you have to pay tuition fees and have a large student loan what is the point in earning relatively modest sums to barely put a dent in the debt.

It is all to easy to see an event as being successful because of the "trains being full", the platforms "packed" etc etc but I suspect that if the true costs of running an event were all taken into account, few make the level of profit that the effort and expenditure should command. When a gala is in full swing how many railways take into account the extra water consumed, the additional phone calls, the extra cleaning of the toilets, the cost of the extra waste removal (palladin bins) and dare I say it how often is the office photocopier working flat out to print a revised timetable to hand to passengers because there has been a last minute change caused by unforeseen circumstances.

It is so very easy to criticise heritage railway management but I often wonder what other decision they could have logically taken given they took the decision they did based on the facts available to them at the time of the decision.



I do agree with this statement by @Paul Hitchcock My question would be, based on an assumption that a well run (lucrative) catering operation requires good management and staff, how would many railways seek to attract those staff when they can not offer full time year round work or possibly the sort of career progression that good managers want?

The problem is that the lineside catering that you find on most heritage railways just isn't lucrative enough now that if that is the only contribution enthusiasts are making will contribute to the continuation of galas.
Some of the decline in the use of volunteers is the introduction of stuff like hygiene inspections by local authorities and qualifications such as food handling certs and catering supervisor certs. Back in the day Doris and her band of helpers wouldn't have heard of such things.

 

[william.martin]

Is it me or is the SVR's new timetables (excluding timetable A as it is not in its final state) fairly diesel based with only 1 steam loco diagram each day on timetable B & C.
I have also noticed that the first train of the day out of Bridgnorth particularly on B is after lunchtime.
In April last year, the busiest standard timetable featured 3 steam diagrams and 1 diesel, by whit week it was 2 steam and 2 diesel and now it is 1 steam 3 diesel.
Also on timetable B a grand total of 0 diagrams start there day at Bridgnorth.

 

[Titfield]

The problem is that the lineside catering that you find on most heritage railways just isn't lucrative enough now that if that is the only contribution enthusiasts are making will contribute to the continuation of galas.
Some of the decline in the use of volunteers is the introduction of stuff like hygiene inspections by local authorities and qualifications such as food handling certs and catering supervisor certs. Back in the day Doris and her band of helpers wouldn't have heard of such things.

Yes agreed. I would contend that getting a food hygiene certificate (can now be done online) isnt too taxing nor is following the food handling regulations and keeping records however some volunteers find even the thought of it too much to cope with and thus cease volunteering.

On my local heritage railway there is the issue (not sure if that is the quite word) of enthusiasts manning the overbridges and going on platforms to take pictures having bought their food stuffs from the local Greggs or Supermarket. Buying just a tea or coffee or can of coke from the cafe just doesnt bring in enough contribution per visitor.

@Paul Hitchcock mentions how different Hrs have responded to the restart. Doubtless when the results are in some will point to their skill etc. I do wonder though how much will be by luck rather than by judgement.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Yes agreed. I would contend that getting a food hygiene certificate (can now be done online) isnt too taxing nor is following the food handling regulations and keeping records however some volunteers find even the thought of it too much to cope with and thus cease volunteering.

On my local heritage railway there is the issue (not sure if that is the quite word) of enthusiasts manning the overbridges and going on platforms to take pictures having bought their food stuffs from the local Greggs or Supermarket. Buying just a tea or coffee or can of coke from the cafe just doesnt bring in enough contribution per visitor.

@Paul Hitchcock mentions how different Hrs have responded to the restart. Doubtless when the results are in some will point to their skill etc. I do wonder though how much will be by luck rather than by judgement.

The answer is likely to be ''both''.

 

[paul1609]

Yes agreed. I would contend that getting a food hygiene certificate (can now be done online) isnt too taxing nor is following the food handling regulations and keeping records however some volunteers find even the thought of it too much to cope with and thus cease volunteering.

On my local heritage railway there is the issue (not sure if that is the quite word) of enthusiasts manning the overbridges and going on platforms to take pictures having bought their food stuffs from the local Greggs or Supermarket. Buying just a tea or coffee or can of coke from the cafe just doesnt bring in enough contribution per visitor.

@Paul Hitchcock mentions how different Hrs have responded to the restart. Doubtless when the results are in some will point to their skill etc. I do wonder though how much will be by luck rather than by judgement.

Have got fed up of pointing out that there is no business plan that will fit all heritage railways, they are just too diverse over a wide range of factors but at least in the south we do share ideas and help each other out. As evidence Ive included a photo of the Southern Sixs recent meeting at the Bluebell, for bonus points match each individual to their railway!

 

[Cowley]

Have got fed up of pointing out that there is no business plan that will fit all heritage railways, they are just too diverse over a wide range of factors but at least in the south we do share ideas and help each other out. As evidence Ive included a photo of the Southern Sixs recent meeting at the Bluebell, for bonus points match each individual to their railway!

Second from the left Spa Valley.
(I’m going for furthest on the right being from the Bluebell too?)

 

[Titfield]

Have got fed up of pointing out that there is no business plan that will fit all heritage railways, they are just too diverse over a wide range of factors but at least in the south we do share ideas and help each other out. As evidence Ive included a photo of the Southern Sixs recent meeting at the Bluebell, for bonus points match each individual to their railway!

I wondered if there was a correlation between the scruffiness of attire and the amount of linear scrapyard at the individuals own railway.

Agreed there is no single business plan which will suit all heritage railways but there are common principles including: you can not keep on losing money on commercial activities as eventually even the wealthiest benefactors will have second thoughts and you will run out of money, whatever you do - do well, it is the passengers / visitors who pay the wages (or for that matter other costs).

 

[paul1609]

Second from the left Spa Valley.
(I’m going for furthest on the right being from the Bluebell too?)

Furthest on the right is the GM of a railway of better class than the Bluebell
Ill have to dig out the poster of the two Ronnies "Heritage Railways" sketch!

 

[Cowley]

Furthest on the right is the GM of a railway of better class than the Bluebell
Ill have to dig out the poster of the two Ronnies "Heritage Railways" sketch!

Yes please Paul.

 

[zwk500]

Second from the left Spa Valley.
(I’m going for furthest on the right being from the Bluebell too?)

The jacket of the 2nd right is a giveaway for the Bluebell . From @paul1609's comment I'll guess furthest right is K&ESR.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The jacket of the 2nd right is a giveaway for the Bluebell . From @paul1609's comment I'll guess furthest right is K&ESR.

Third from the left IOWSR

 

[paul1609]

Yes please Paul.

Sorry can't find it at the moment but its a poster parady of the two Ronnies Upper Class/ Middle Class/ Working Class tv sketch done by (I think) a Spa Valley Volunteer. Basically for class substitute Bluebell Volunteer/ K&ESR Volunteer/Spa Volunteer.
I am a Bluebell Volunteer I look down on Volunteers from other Railways because I am superior and only use steam locos.
I am a K & ESR volunteer I look up to the Bluebell Volunteer because they are superior but I look down on Spa Valley Volunteers etc etc
You get the idea very funny especially if you have met some of the Bluebell Loco crew.

 

[Trainfan344]

Feel like we're drifting away from the topic.

SVR restarted operations last weekend with Kidderminster to Highley shuttles using 7714 as motive power.

 

[william.martin]

SVR restarted operations last weekend with Kidderminster to Highley shuttles using 7714 as motive power.

Yes, does anybody know what's running today as the SVR have failed to publish there allocations

 

[Trainfan344]

Should be 7714 again according to the unofficial Facebook group.

That should be booked for all services atm with 43106 booked to be a spare loco