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Sheffield to Lincoln Frequency

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ricoblade

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I asked this a while ago but probably before the last lockdown!

I noticed that the Northern Sheffield to Lincoln frequency is still an hourly stopper.

Does anyone know if Northern have plans to increase the frequency and re-introduce the fast to Worksop service?

Thanks.
 
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geoffk

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Maybe transfer the route to EMR, but would they be any better in terms of stock and train crew availability?
 

Watershed

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Maybe transfer the route to EMR, but would they be any better in terms of stock and train crew availability?
There wouldn't be any sense in doing that. They have enough on their hands as it is; they're still regularly turning out 156s (sometimes on their own) on the Liverpool to Norwich route and lots of services remain removed from the timetable.
 

geoffk

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There wouldn't be any sense in doing that. They have enough on their hands as it is; they're still regularly turning out 156s (sometimes on their own) on the Liverpool to Norwich route and lots of services remain removed from the timetable.
Agreed, but it would mean that a later train could run from Sheffield to Lincoln as the stock/crews would be Lincoln-based. Current last train is 20.53, then to Retford at 21.43 and Worksop 22.43. Is the non-implementation of the improved timetable actually to do with the stock and crew position or is DfT behind it?
 

30907

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Agreed, but it would mean that a later train could run from Sheffield to Lincoln as the stock/crews would be Lincoln-based. Current last train is 20.53, then to Retford at 21.43 and Worksop 22.43.
Which is as it was pre-pandemic... but I agree that using Lincoln-based crews has some logic to it.
 

Class 170101

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Does Lincoln have any Northern crews? Looking at Realtime trains and the way the services operate I would suggest not, similarly EMR appear to have nothing at Sheffield. This would tend to limit the practicability of early and late night services.

If it was a BR style operation the route would be shared between the depots.
 

LowLevel

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Does Lincoln have any Northern crews? Looking at Realtime trains and the way the services operate I would suggest not, similarly EMR appear to have nothing at Sheffield. This would tend to limit the practicability of early and late night services.

If it was a BR style operation the route would be shared between the depots.
EMR have an Intercity guards depot at Sheffield but that's it. They do however have a lateish train back to Nottingham that could be used to convey units/traincrew from Sheffield.

Under BR Sheffield, Lincoln and Boston crews all worked the Lincoln - Sheffield line.
 

Class 170101

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EMR have an Intercity guards depot at Sheffield but that's it. They do however have a lateish train back to Nottingham that could be used to convey units/traincrew from Sheffield.
Its actually the wrong way and is actually a later train Sheffield to Lincoln but would probably have to be covered by Doncaster (Northern), ECS from Lincoln to Doncaster.

Under BR Sheffield, Lincoln and Boston crews all worked the Lincoln - Sheffield line.
No surprises there.
 

IBLRG

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Maybe transfer the route to EMR, but would they be any better in terms of stock and train crew availability?
A number of people have suggested this where there is a Nottingham - Worksop - Retford Lincoln - Nottingham service
 

robbeech

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We managed to get the half hourly service for about a year I think before the pandemic and then it was immediately cut. There’s no reason why it couldn’t go back to this in May but it will be based around cost. You don’t pick up any more revenue from having that increased frequency so there’s little point. And with some services on the RobinHood line from Worksop going to 2 hourly from hourly the usefulness of the service in that area will continue to fall.
 

ricoblade

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We managed to get the half hourly service for about a year I think before the pandemic and then it was immediately cut. There’s no reason why it couldn’t go back to this in May but it will be based around cost. You don’t pick up any more revenue from having that increased frequency so there’s little point. And with some services on the RobinHood line from Worksop going to 2 hourly from hourly the usefulness of the service in that area will continue to fall.

My understanding too, though passengers weren't too aware as I found out at Sheffield when people asked me more than once if the fast train stopped at Woodhouse/Kiveton, etc. Wonder how many overshot to Worksop!

Doesn't sound good about the RHL that I think you're close to. I've never used it and in fact I think we both contributed to a thread a while ago about the poor connections at Worksop to the RHL from the Sheffield-Lincoln service.
 

geoffk

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We managed to get the half hourly service for about a year I think before the pandemic and then it was immediately cut. There’s no reason why it couldn’t go back to this in May but it will be based around cost. You don’t pick up any more revenue from having that increased frequency so there’s little point. And with some services on the RobinHood line from Worksop going to 2 hourly from hourly the usefulness of the service in that area will continue to fall.
But it's generally argued that increased frequency does generate revenue, especially if some journeys are speeded up, but not always enough to cover the additional cost, unless there are train crews otherwise "just sitting around", which there won't be. I see the RHL is now hourly with some peak extras Nottingham to MSW.
 

Watershed

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But it's generally argued that increased frequency does generate revenue, especially if some journeys are speeded up, but not always enough to cover the additional cost, unless there are train crews otherwise "just sitting around", which there won't be. I see the RHL is now hourly with some peak extras Nottingham to MSW.
It does generate additional revenue - the problem is that the DfT will want it to cover most, if not all, of the marginal operating costs. Which is going to be unlikely on regional services that have, and always will, be loss-making.

There's probably more to be squeezed out of some traincrew diagrams - I'm sure Norwich used to sign Mansfield, enabling them to get in a trip on the RHL before returning to Norwich, whereas currently they mostly just go to Nottingham and back. But of course that won't necessarily align with when you need a trip to be covered.
 

robbeech

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But it's generally argued that increased frequency does generate revenue, especially if some journeys are speeded up, but not always enough to cover the additional cost, unless there are train crews otherwise "just sitting around", which there won't be. I see the RHL is now hourly with some peak extras Nottingham to MSW.
On some flows it may. But on many flows like this people will just travel on the train when it gets there. There are few other public alternatives, so those that would drive will drive anyway and those that can’t will just have to make do.

Langwith and Whitwell on the RH line are going to 2 hourly from May to save the cost of having another train and crew, as the return trip from Nottigham takes too long otherwise and becomes unreliable. It means that trips from these stations won’t connect to anything useful at Worksop/Retford adding a further hour to a journey to York, Newcastle or Edinburgh. A half hourly service between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford Could solve this.
 

Pumbaa

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This a prime example of a route that will never go back to its pre-pandemic frequency.

Whatever we think the merits might be, as other posters have pointed the incremental revenue will come nowhere near the additional cost to cover.

The new priority is cost control, not demand growth.
 

ChrisC

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On some flows it may. But on many flows like this people will just travel on the train when it gets there. There are few other public alternatives, so those that would drive will drive anyway and those that can’t will just have to make do.

Langwith and Whitwell on the RH line are going to 2 hourly from May to save the cost of having another train and crew, as the return trip from Nottigham takes too long otherwise and becomes unreliable. It means that trips from these stations won’t connect to anything useful at Worksop/Retford adding a further hour to a journey to York, Newcastle or Edinburgh. A half hourly service between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford Could solve this.
There has been an hourly service on the Robin Hood Line between Nottingham and Worksop since the line reopened through to Worksop in 1998. For over 20 years a return trip from Nottingham has not taken too long and has not been unreliable. EMT ran the line very successfully and despite the constraints of the single line sections between Bulwell and Kirkby in Ashfield trains mostly ran to time.

Now after over 20 years of success, EMR are unable to run operate the successful timetable which has worked for all this time and are cutting stops at Langworth and Whitwell, and have reduced the off peak timetable south of Mansfield by half from half hourly to hourly.
There have always been long waits of up to 50 minutes for connections at Worksop but the Sheffield to Gainsborough Central service for the short time it ran provided good connections. Mansfield has now lost usable connections to almost everywhere as the hourly remaining train connects with very little at Nottingham hour long waits. Mansfield, with a population of over 100,000 deserves a better service with good connections at Nottingham and at Worksop for journeys to the north.

No-one seems to be willing to come up with any explanation why the line has now suddenly become so unreliable and the timetable that has run so successfully for 20+ years can’t be restored. It’s claimed it’s not the Class 170’s that are the problem but it always worked with 156’s and 158’s
 

Class 170101

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No-one seems to be willing to come up with any explanation why the line has now suddenly become so unreliable and the timetable that has run so successfully for 20+ years can’t be restored. It’s claimed it’s not the Class 170’s that are the problem but it always worked with 156’s and 158’s
My view is that the Robin Hood line should be covered with 156s (or better) due to higher acceleration than a Class 170 from frequent stops. Class 170s would be better suited to routes with fewer stops and better seating for example Norwich to Liverpool services and maybe Lincoln to Leicester.
 

LowLevel

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This a prime example of a route that will never go back to its pre-pandemic frequency.

Whatever we think the merits might be, as other posters have pointed the incremental revenue will come nowhere near the additional cost to cover.

The new priority is cost control, not demand growth.
I think it might do, actually, if they can un-break Nottingham - The May 2020 timetable really didn't work out and I think May 2022 and December 2022 should be seen as two stages. The North end of the Robin Hood line has never had huge numbers on it with most traffic centred around Mansfield, Shirebrook, Worksop and at a push, Creswell. Langwith and Whitwell have never been particularly well used and attract disproportionate amount of feral kids in gangs bunking the trains, particularly between Shirebrook and Langwith, and Creswell and Whitwell.

The South end however is much more successful.

I hope it all comes back eventually, along with Nottingham - Matlock but it is sad that a service that worked fairly well for so long is in such difficulties.
 

ChrisC

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Thank yoU @LowLevel for your comments in this thread and others concerning the Robin Hood Line. Even if we have to wait for another year for the timetable to be restored to its previous level at least you sound fairly optimistic that it will eventually happen.

I’ve been using the RHL right back since the first section reopened as far as Newstead and I am also very sad at what has happened to the timetable over these past 2 years and especially since last June. Of all the reopenings throughout the country this was always seen as a big success, especially passenger numbers south of Mansfield. Pre Covid, when Northern began the Sheffield to Gainsborough Central Service, and speeded up Sheffield to Lincoln, I really thought that this was going to significantly increase passenger numbers north of Mansfield. For the first time Sheffield and other destinations could be reached without up to a 50 minute wait at Worksop. Journey planners, even from as far south as Hucknall were actually showing journeys to destinations in the north via Worksop, rather than Nottingham, as these then had the shortest journey times.

Now it’s terrible and really sad that to get anywhere we are back to long waits at Worksop and even longer waits at Nottingham as the remaining hourly train connects with very little. I’m now very rarely using the train and travelling into Nottingham from Hucknall by tram or directly from home by bus or increasingly using my car for the whole journey. When I go to Manchester, Liverpool, Norwich, Lincoln and many other destinations I don’t want up to an hour waiting at Nottingham or Worksop for a connection on both my outward and return journeys.
 

robbeech

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They used 170s amongst other things back in Central Trains days. I guess that was pre NET Tram though for at least some of it.

The reason Whitwell sees so few passengers is the service is pointless other than direct to Mansfield (we lost the number 9 bus 15 years ago) or Nottingham only. Worksop is pointless, there’s a half hourly bus that goes through the actual village rather than the edge and stops in town rather than where Worksop railway station is located, it’s cheaper. But nothing can be done about where the track is of course.
Connections at Worksop are poor, many tickets up north aren’t valid via Sheffield so it’s via Retford only which is 2 hourly. And then when they drop the timetable to 2 hourly from Whitwell it’ll no doubt fall in the ‘wrong’ hour which will make Whitwell to York over 3 and a half hours (and £52 anytime) vs 1hr10 in the car.
Connections from Nottingham are (last I looked) 59 minutes for a Norwich, 50 minutes for Liverpool 40 minutes for Birmingham / Derby.
Why would anyone catch it unless they had no choice? Hourly with a (back on topic) half hourly Sheffield to Lincoln (or 1 to Lincoln and 1 to Gainsborough) would make it much more appealing.
Mansfield to Sheffield is quicker by 53 bus and that bus goes EVERYWHERE, and is half the price.
 

ricoblade

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Just noticed that the 10:54 Retford (ex-Lincoln) to Leeds via Sheffield is not showing for this Saturday. I panicked a bit as I use that service fairly regularly but it appears again for Saturday 21st so it would not appear to be permanent.

Interestingly this service was cancelled on the Saturday morning a few Saturdays back but luckily I noticed in time and managed to do an emergency dash to get the 09:51.

Are Northern getting their cancellations in early?
 

IanXC

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Just noticed that the 10:54 Retford (ex-Lincoln) to Leeds via Sheffield is not showing for this Saturday. I panicked a bit as I use that service fairly regularly but it appears again for Saturday 21st so it would not appear to be permanent.

Interestingly this service was cancelled on the Saturday morning a few Saturdays back but luckily I noticed in time and managed to do an emergency dash to get the 09:51.

Are Northern getting their cancellations in early?
Looks like a schedule error to me. The outward 1L37 0738 Leeds to Lincoln is still shown running but with nothing to do at Lincoln....
 

ricoblade

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Thanks - I tweeted Northern yesterday and they just said "it's not running" but lo and behold it has reappeared this morning!
 

ricoblade

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I could have done with the half hourly service yesterday as I missed the 13:39 by 10 seconds!
 
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