Short journeys where advance fares are available

[Kite159]

In a post in a thread about advance tickets, I saw a mention that Northern sell advance tickets for the short 4 minute, 2.33 miles journey from Leeds to Burley Park (£1.70) which got me thinking if there are any other short journeys (5 minutes or under) where advance fares are available for passengers to purchase?

(I searched for Tuesday next week to get those fares, seems searching tomorrow the only fares available are the flexible tickets which I presume is a measure to limit the impact of someone buying a £1.70 advance for a York train to simply bypass the gateline at Leeds)

 

[Watershed]

Ashburys to Manchester Piccadilly is another bad offender, a 5 minute, 1mi52ch journey with 4+ trains an hour.

 

[rg177]

I once managed an Edinburgh to Haymarket LNER only advance on what turned out to be an absolutely rammed Aberdeen service.

Still, it was only £0.85

 

[infobleep]

I once managed an Edinburgh to Haymarket LNER only advance on what turned out to be an absolutely rammed Aberdeen service.

Still, it was only £0.85

Can you remember how much you saved?

 

[alistairlees]

Bradford Forster Square to Frizinghall is only 3 minutes yet has Advance fares. This sort of fares strategy is totally nuts and should not be allowed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Bradford Forster Square to Frizinghall is only 3 minutes yet has Advance fares. This sort of fares strategy is totally nuts and should not be allowed.

£1.40 Advances vs £3.00 Anytime Day Singles? So, why are they being offered? Not much operates into/out of Forster Square that isn't operated by Northern. How big a factor is ORCATS if that's possibly a reason?

 

[aquae39]

This is quite a good fare strategy to attract people using the railway locally and staying away from the roads from my point of view.
As a great westerner, I wish we can have this kind of little local fares. Usually it works out cheaper with the next available Advance ticket destination for going a few stations further rather than buying more expensive local off peak or anytime tickets.

 

[Hadders]

Bradford Forster Square to Frizinghall is only 3 minutes yet has Advance fares. This sort of fares strategy is totally nuts and should not be allowed.

Absolutely agree with this. Advance fares on short distance journeys make no sense at all, it just confuses people and makes ticketing more complex.

LNER introduced Advance tickets between Stevenage and Kings Cross a couple of years ago. The fast service from Stevenage generally consists of 4 fast Thameslink services an hour, 2 LNER trains and hour, 2 Thameslink semi-fasts and 2 GN 'all shacks via Hertford'. I bet most of the Advance tickets get used on the wrong train, especially when returning from London.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Absolutely agree with this. Advance fares on short distance journeys make no sense at all, it just confuses people and makes ticketing more complex.

LNER introduced Advance tickets between Stevenage and Kings Cross a couple of years ago. The fast service from Stevenage generally consists of 4 fast Thameslink services an hour, 2 LNER trains and hour, 2 Thameslink semi-fasts and 2 GN 'all shacks via Hertford'. I bet most of the Advance tickets get used on the wrong train, especially when returning from London.

Not as bad as the Haymarket to Edinburgh Advances, there are 16 different Advance products all at £1.20

 

[ricoblade]

I bought a Meadowhall to Sheffield (7 minutes) Advance recently for £1.80.

 

[rg177]

Can you remember how much you saved?

The walk-up back then was about £1.55 with a Railcard (2021).

In that very specific situation (required 800) it worked - even got the TVM to issue it. In any other situation its nuts.

The Northern APs I also quite like when they're offered in the morning peak as they'll often significantly undercut the walk-up fare due to railcard minimum fares. Granted this is again a very specific set of circumstances that'll apply to me a handful of times a year seeing as I don't live in an area served by lots of frequently stopping Northern services anymore (APs offered from Newcastle generally make sense - to Carlisle, Middlesbrough etc)

 

[JonathanH]

This seems to be a single fare pricing issue. Advance fares for short journeys can be useful if someone is making a single journey where this produces a useful saving. Typically if someone is only going one way they will tend to know when they are travelling.

Therefore Stevenage to London on LNER isn't unreasonable in the specific context of a one way journey. Some of the shorter ones are a bit less obvious.

They do not tend to make sense as part of a return journey.

 

[yorkie]

Bradford Forster Square to Frizinghall is only 3 minutes yet has Advance fares. This sort of fares strategy is totally nuts and should not be allowed.

I agree but I would also say that if they are abolished, people be allowed to finish short.

I remember Northern abolished some fares to places like Sandbach, but said people could finish short on longer distance fares but they appear to have reneged on that (@Puffing Devil may know more on this)

£1.40 Advances vs £3.00 Anytime Day Singles? So, why are they being offered? Not much operates into/out of Forster Square that isn't operated by Northern. How big a factor is ORCATS if that's possibly a reason?

In this case the walk up single should be £1.50 and the Advance fares abolished

But operators (encouraged by and in cahoots with the DfT) seek to maximise revenue (at the cost of deterring customers) by having singles at 10p less than the return and have Advance fares at the rate the walk up single should be

But if you tell them we should have single leg pricing, they may put the cost of return journeys up, and indeed LNER did do that (see my Leeds to London example in the relevant thread).

Ultimately there are insufficient safeguards to protect passengers and if we campaign on any one aspect, I can guarantee the 'powers that be' will get us back with worse terms & conditions and/or higher fares in other areas.

 

[Hadders]

Therefore Stevenage to London on LNER isn't unreasonable in the specific context of a one way journey. Some of the shorter ones are a bit less obvious.

The overwhelming number of people making a journey between Stevenage and London will be making a day return. Advance tickets aren’t suitable for that, especially on the return portion, given the frequency of service. Single leg pricing is a red herring, genuine single leg pricing will come in due course as part of Project Oval.

 

[yorkie]

The overwhelming number of people making a journey between Stevenage and London will be making a day return. Advance tickets aren’t suitable for that, especially on the return portion, given the frequency of service. Single leg pricing is a red herring, genuine single leg pricing will come in due course as part of Project Oval.

They're also great for people doing longer journeys if they book with the forum's site, rather than direct with LNER Last time I looked, they were often popping up on journeys where trains call there, as they're such good value, due to LNER being in competition with GTR.

 

[Haywain]

They're also great for people doing longer journeys if they book with the forum's site, rather than direct with LNER

They will also have benefitted people booking through the LNER app and receiving the split ticketing discount.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I agree but I would also say that if they are abolished, people be allowed to finish short.

I remember Northern abolished some fares to places like Sandbach, but said people could finish short on longer distance fares but they appear to have reneged on that (@Puffing Devil may know more on this)

I've had no further discussions with them since 2017, when they confirmed I could join a Crewe-Manchester train mid-journey a Crewe advance.

 

[yorkie]

They will also have benefitted people booking through the LNER app and receiving the split ticketing discount.

Just the app? I tried the website and it didn't work:

I've not got the app and have no need for it, maybe someone can confirm if it works or not.

(Image shows an example journey London to Harrogate 22/03 at 0933; £54.53 through Trainsplit and £68.30 on LNER)

LNER say:

Cheaper tickets, same great journey. Book further in advance on the LNER website and app than anywhere else.

Anyway the point is these are excellent value tickets, consistently found by Trainsplit for longer journeys and of use to people travelling much longer journeys than just Stevenage <> London; they may or may not also be found by the LNER app, but the point still stands!

I've had no further discussions with them since 2017, when they confirmed I could join a Crewe-Manchester train mid-journey a Crewe advance.

Unless they specify something to the contrary, I'd say it still stands. However I did see some threads in the disputes section where Northern tried to prosecute passengers who did this. Northern's policies, particularly in the area of pricing and revenue protection are an absolute shambles. They're a real mickey mouse company at times.

Edit: I found some relevant threads on the topic

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-available-on-all-routes.150700/#post-3061322

There needs to be equality.

For example, on Northern.

Crewe-Manchester = Advance tickets
Sandbach to Manchester = No Advance tickets, same train, just one station on from Crewe. However, no competition from Virgin here.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/same-day-advance-tickets.146364/#post-2980221

Northern have confirmed via twitter today that Advances have been withdrawn on the Manchester-Crewe line from 21 May. At least from Alderley Edge, Chelford, Goostrey, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach.

They are still available from Wilmslow and Crewe, where there is a competing VTWC service....

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-stations-also-affecting-sale-tickets.198184/

Indeed, I did have an email conversation with them in 2017 when they withdrew the Advances from Goostrey (and others). This was their reply (my bold):

Dear PD,​

​

Unfortunately on some lines advance tickets were taken off due to them not being used as much.​

​

However, you will be able to purchase an advance ticket from Crewe to Manchester and get on at Goostrey.​

​

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.​

​

Yours Sincerely,​

​

XX​

​

Customer Solutions Team​

​

Obviously the "not used much" comment is total BS. The permission was valuable, though. Unfortunately, this "loophole" will most likely die along with the Northern Franchise.

I have used advances on this line a few times since, I've never had an issue starting or ending short.

 

[Haywain]

Just the app?

Yes, just the app. Apart from ticket purchases it's very handy for making seat reservations on LNER services.

 

[MCSHF007]

In this case the walk up single should be £1.50 and the Advance fares abolished

But operators (encouraged by and in cahoots with the DfT) seek to maximise revenue (at the cost of deterring customers) by having singles at 10p less than the return and have Advance fares at the rate the walk up single should be

But if you tell them we should have single leg pricing, they may put the cost of return journeys up, and indeed LNER did do that (see my Leeds to London example in the relevant thread).

Ultimately there are insufficient safeguards to protect passengers and if we campaign on any one aspect, I can guarantee the 'powers that be' will get us back with worse terms & conditions and/or higher fares in other areas.

The bus fare out of/into Bradford to/from Frizinghall would hit the current £2 threshold. So surely the walk-up train single could also be priced at £2?

 

[johntea]

It does annoy me on my local route (Hallam Line) Northern will almost always offer say Wakefield Kirkgate to Leeds for £2.50 as an advance product on their stopper train (as well as slightly cheaper advances on their more 'express' services), but if you're boarding at Normanton, Castleford or Woodlesford there are never such advance fares on offer!

When they now expect me to fork out £7.50 for a peak return ticket I'll just catch the bus for £2.00 each way instead