Shortest Distance Rule - Valid via Stratford Intl?

[hkstudent]

I am planning to do a journey from station in Sussex to southeast London, north of St John's on this Saturday.
Upon checking the journey planner on that day, there are not journeys can be appeared on Journey Planners on any related operators.

I know the apparent route, but I find that via Stratford Intl would result in a shorter distance.
The ticket I am planning to buy doesn't mention any thing about HS1 nor "Any Permitted" wording, nor having operator restriction, nor a compulsory positive "via" point.

I am certain that I can buy that ticket with that route option from a ticket machine, but since there are no itinerary be generated, is it mean that I can do my own interpretation here?

 

[SargeNpton]

You would really need to say what your departure and arrival stations are.

 

[island]

Very difficult to advise without knowing the specific stations and the route of the ticket.

 

[RJ]

All that will happen if you broadcast it is that flow will end up with a route specific restriction on it that will stop it being valid on HS1. If the rules permit it, use it and keep it discreet. We all know that there are tickets out there that undercut the market rate set by Southeastern for HS1, getting them removed doesn’t have any benefits at all.

 

[paul1609]

Are you sure that you are correctly calculating the distances? Hastings (East Sussex) for instance the shortest route to Stratford International is via London Bridge (and therefore St Johns, then Thameslink to St Pancras, then HS1 so is 5miles + further. The Only Marshlink stations East Sussex stations which have routing point Ashford International are fairly well routed up ie HS1, Any Permitted Not London, Not Underground etc etc in my experience. Only Rye and Winchelsea have shortest routes to Tonbridge via Ashford International.

 

[hkstudent]

Are you sure that you are correctly calculating the distances? Hastings (East Sussex) for instance the shortest route to Stratford International is via London Bridge (and therefore St Johns, then Thameslink to St Pancras, then HS1 so is 5miles + further. The Only Marshlink stations East Sussex stations which have routing point Ashford International are fairly well routed up ie HS1, Any Permitted Not London, Not Underground etc etc in my experience. Only Rye and Winchelsea have shortest routes to Tonbridge via Ashford International.

I have looked into the mileage of each national rail section, while the journey involved only have a non NR interchange link between the two Stratford stations. The station itself don’t get direct access to London Bridge NR.

Meanwhile, Stratford EL to Whitechapel EL and Liverpool Street EL is still considered for both LU and NR fare purposes.

I tried to avoid directly saying the origin and destination to avoid as what RJ have mentioned

 

[SargeNpton]

Based on your limited information of from somewhere in Sussex to somewhere in South East London (south of the Thames) via Stratford International (which is north of the Thames) I doubt that what you are trying to do is valid with a point-to-point ticket to that South East London ticket.

Might be a different matter though if you have a ticket to a London zonal destination that includes all the zones you will be passing through - as long as the route from your origin doesn't bar travel via HS1.

 

[paul1609]

Ive run out of free mileage enquiries for today but id have though the shortest route from by far the majority of Sussex Stations to Whitechapel EL would be by Farringdon?

 

[hkstudent]

Ive run out of free mileage enquiries for today but id have though the shortest route from by far the majority of Sussex Stations to Whitechapel EL would be by Farringdon?

For most stations in Sussex, yes it is.

But the lowest fares that can be searched on Brafares don’t allow via London (terminals)

 

[30907]

Based on your limited information of from somewhere in Sussex to somewhere in South East London (south of the Thames) via Stratford International (which is north of the Thames) I doubt that what you are trying to do is valid with a point-to-point ticket to that South East London ticket.

The OP's destination is "on SE north of St John's" which literally is somewhere like New Cross.

I presume from the OP's clues that the route from Stratford Int is (walk) - Stratford main-Whitechapel EL-Abbey Wood EL- destination (ie NOT using DLR which would require a + routing).
Good luck with the barriers at Stratford!

 

[hkstudent]

I presume from the OP's clues that the route from Stratford Int is (walk) - Stratford main-Whitechapel EL-Abbey Wood EL- destination (ie NOT using DLR to comply with the routing).
Good luck with the barriers at Stratford!

I will try to avoid escalations at barriers, which HS gateline staff are quite similar to the level of Euston West Coast dragons or “clever” tickets.

Though, the destination is also not via Abbey Wood EL, which fare is set by Southeastern.

 

[paul1609]

The OP's destination is "on SE north of St John's" which literally is somewhere like New Cross.

I presume from the OP's clues that the route from Stratford Int is (walk) - Stratford main-Whitechapel EL-Abbey Wood EL- destination (ie NOT using DLR which would require a + routing).
Good luck with the barriers at Stratford!

Does the shortest route rule apply to every route restricted ticket then?
My understanding was that the shortest route rule only made a route permitted ie it generally only applied to any permitted tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the shortest route rule apply to every route restricted ticket then?
My understanding was that the shortest route rule only made a route permitted ie it generally only applied to any permitted tickets.

If I'm not mistaken, for routed tickets you generate the list of permitted routes (regardless of why they're permitted) and you can take the ones that don't fall foul of the route restriction. So if in this case the route is "not HS1" then it's not valid on HS1 regardless of whether the shortest route is that way or not.

Additionally if it's a specified positive "via" you can generate the routes from A to the via point and the via point to B and use any combination of those. (Originally I think this was "only if you don't get any by the first step" but most if not all planners seem to do that anyway).

 

[paul1609]

If I'm not mistaken, for routed tickets you generate the list of permitted routes (regardless of why they're permitted) and you can take the ones that don't fall foul of the route restriction. So if in this case the route is "not HS1" then it's not valid on HS1 regardless of whether the shortest route is that way or not.

Additionally if it's a specified positive "via" you can generate the routes from A to the via point and the via point to B and use any combination of those. (Originally I think this was "only if you don't get any by the first step" but most if not all planners seem to do that anyway).

yep thats my understanding also, but the OP seems to be implying that if the route permitted by the shortest route (via Farringdon) is barred by his ticket (not via London) or whatever hes then entitled to take a route thats not generally permitted but the shortest (via Stratford Int) if the shortest route is barred by the route restriction. Thats if Ive understood correctly?

 

[MrJeeves]

but the OP seems to be implying that if the route permitted by the shortest route (via Farringdon) is barred by his ticket (not via London) or whatever hes then entitled to take a route thats not generally permitted but the shortest (via Stratford Int) if the shortest route is barred by the route restriction. Thats if Ive understood correctly?

I don't believe this to be true.

My understanding is that the shortest possible route by rail is permitted, but if this falls foul of the route restriction, then it's invalid.

You can't just find the shortest possible route that matches the route restriction and decide that's permitted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

yep thats my understanding also, but the OP seems to be implying that if the route permitted by the shortest route (via Farringdon) is barred by his ticket (not via London) or whatever hes then entitled to take a route thats not generally permitted but the shortest (via Stratford Int) if the shortest route is barred by the route restriction. Thats if Ive understood correctly?

If that is what the OP is saying (it's not very clear without knowing what the ticket is exactly) then I think they're indeed wrong.

If the OP wants to be sure, though, use via points to get a planner to generate it and if it does and shows the intended fare, it's valid. Print the itinerary showing the fare and take it (or ideally buy the ticket against the itinerary then there's a contractual entitlement to use that journey). If it doesn't, it's probably not valid.

 

[Haywain]

Given that the OP has told us this much about the ticket:

The ticket I am planning to buy doesn't mention any thing about HS1 nor "Any Permitted" wording, nor having operator restriction, nor a compulsory positive "via" point.

I can only conclude that the ticket is likely to be routed 'Not via London', and if that's the case I am struggling to see how such a ticket could possibly have a route that is both shorter than the shortest route and pass through Stratford International. I would also suggest the the OP will, in attempting to use such a ticket to travel that way, encounter difficulties when the ticket is checked on HS1 long before reaching Stratford International. However, without being told the real stations involved, there is an element of guesswork around this.

 

[paul1609]

i think the OP is looking at a Rye (Sussex) or Winchelsea to Surrey Quays (or cluster) route not via London Super Off Peak ticket on route;
Rye, Ashford Int, Stratford Int, walk to Stratford, Stratford to Whitechapel, Whitechapel to Surrey Quays etc.
In the case of Surrey Quays it is close to the shortest route, however National Rail says no fares are available.
This type of ticket (The ex connex pricebuster) also unusually has break of journey restrictions.

 

[RJ]

I would also suggest the the OP will, in attempting to use such a ticket to travel that way, encounter difficulties when the ticket is checked on HS1 long before reaching Stratford International.

Indeed. The game has moved on and the aim nowadays is not just to find good value tickets, but to find ones ones that are also not going to stand out to any but the most eagle eyed of inspectors. I think a Not Via London ticket on HS1 via Stratford International would fail this test.

From my previous cursory look into fares in this corner of the UK, it would appear the retail management are particularly keen on use of route restrictions and mileages have been examined to prevent people getting value out of circuitous routes. Tickets that have slipped through the net have seen amendments to the route restriction in subsequent fare rounds. There are still flows they haven't yet picked up on , but I would suggest they don't need any help to identify them!

 

[island]

I would also suggest the the OP will, in attempting to use such a ticket to travel that way, encounter difficulties when the ticket is checked on HS1 long before reaching Stratford International

Agreed. The ticket will also be rejected in the barriers at Stratford International.

 

[Haywain]

Agreed. The ticket will also be rejected in the barriers at Stratford International.

And probably at Stratford too.

 

[kieron]

I tried to avoid directly saying the origin and destination to avoid as what RJ have mentioned

The issue is that your question seems to be whether or not your intended journey is valid with your intended ticket, and that it's impossible to answer that without knowing what those are. If you would rather not share them with the world, then it may be better to ask a question you feel more comfortable with rather than to leave people wondering what your plans are and what assumptions underlie them.

I do know that the only direct link a retailer can show between Stratford (London) and Stratford International is a "metro" one, although I don't know if that's relevant.