Shortfaring [nervous post]

[012345]

Hi all,

As my title says, I have stupidly bought shortfaring from London Bridge to East Croydon. I know that it's dumb to have done this and actions have consequences and now, I have mine.

I received my initial letter where I was given a chance to tell my side of story, and I didn't try to make any excuses and apologised. I requested if we can settle this outside of the court as having a criminal record can be detrimental for my job. I should've known better and I am reflecting on this.

Today, I received a letter where they have informed me that they "will be going forward with the case. A pack of court documentation will be sent to me in due course".

Receiving this letter has definitely made me nervous (I'm shaking as I write this post). It didn't help that I've been posts here where some people are going to court. Others have had real reasons about their actions.
There are a few things I want to know:

1) Will this definitely stay on my criminal record?
2) Is there any possibility that this still can be settled outside of court? (really hoping there is)
3) IF there is a possibility this can be settled outside of court, how much would this cost me?
4) If not, what should I expect to happen next, and what can i do?

Thanks all. I'll be nervously reading your comments.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you please answer/include the following so we have all the information?

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum. To add to the clarificatory questions that @AlterEgo has just asked, may we also ask how many times you have possibly done this "short faring" (presume you didn't encounter any revenue protection staff on previous occasions), were the tickets discounted with a railcard discount (which you may or may not have) and whether or not all or any of the tickets were bought online. It's relatively easy for the investigation team to check your previous travel record.

 

[012345]

I know that I don't have any excuses for my stupid decisions, but I want to know how bad this will be for me. I'm already scared as is, so pleaseeee pleaaaasee don't be too mean on your response.

• The stations where you started & finished your journey;

London bridge to East Croydon

• The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);

If I bought the correct tickets, I should've changed at Gatwick Ariport (I use the trainline app to buy my tickets as buying the split fare is bit cheaper).

• If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;

As I saw the person checking for tickets, I quickly bought the rest of the ticket from Gatwick to my actual destination but got caught that I only bought it minutes ago

• What happened in any encounter with railway staff;

At fist I tried to act dumb but I'm not really a good liar so I within a minute I apologised and we had a conversation whilst she added my details in so there were no "fights/arguments"


I'm attaching the letter I received today. I'm guessing if this go full on court, this will be on my record and will likely lose my job? Should I start crying now?

 

[AlterEgo]

Where were you caught, and by which train company? Who is writing to you now?

What did you write in response to them? Do post the email or letter with all personal details redacted.

When you say you should have “changed” at Gatwick, what do you mean? Where you were actually travelling from and to?

Has the company indicated they have detected any other offences?

 

[012345]

Where were you caught, and by which train company? Who is writing to you now?

I was caught at Crawley. It's Thameslink who's writing to me now

What did you write in response to them? Do post the email or letter with all personal details redacted.

Attached. It's probably a bad response but I really didn't have any excuse and it is my fault. I could've probably written it better but I was extremely scared and just wrote the short response

When you say you should have “changed” at Gatwick, what do you mean? Where you were actually travelling from and to?

On the trainline app, the split fare is at Gatwick, so from my location (sorry I don't want to say where exactly) to Gatwick, then Gatwick to London Bridge. The app buys two separate tickets as this is cheaper and it says that as long as my train has a stop at Gatwick, then I'm okay to travel without actually changing at the station.

Has the company indicated they have detected any other offences?

No, they haven't written anything like that. The attached here and the one from my previous post are the only letters I received

 

[Haywain]

London bridge to East Croydon


If I bought the correct tickets, I should've changed at Gatwick Ariport (I use the trainline app to buy my tickets as buying the split fare is bit cheaper).

So, your journey was not London Bridge to East Croydon - are you saying this because you held a ticket from London Bridge to East Croydon? And when you were stopped you had just bought a ticket from Gatwick Airport to Crawley, so still had failed to pay for the whole journey? Presumably, they have been able to look at your Trainline account and see that you had done this before and, as a result, have not seen much in your response to indicate that appreciate the seriousness of what you had been doing. I think you are going to need to send a letter accepting that what you did was wrong and has a major impact on the railway, give reassurance that you have learned and won't be repeating the offence and ask if the matter can be settled by payment of outstanding fares and an amount to cover Thameslink's costs in investigating the matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was caught at Crawley. It's Thameslink who's writing to me now


Attached. It's probably a bad response but I really didn't have any excuse and it is my fault. I could've probably written it better but I was extremely scared and just wrote the short response


On the trainline app, the split fare is at Gatwick, so from my location (sorry I don't want to say where exactly) to Gatwick, then Gatwick to London Bridge. The app buys two separate tickets as this is cheaper and it says that as long as my train has a stop at Gatwick, then I'm okay to travel without actually changing at the station.


No, they haven't written anything like that. The attached here and the one from my previous post are the only letters I received

We see many cases on here of Thameslink settling as opposed to going to court, so it may be worth you having another try (see @Haywain 's helpful suggestions) - even tho your reply covers the main bases you may be able to reiterate your remorse and commitment not to do it again (eg have you bought a railcard or season ticket to legitimately reduce your fares for example, if so say that) - have a look at other replies on threads that people have drafted - and eg post your draft up here for advice on content if you want to have another go at seeking a settlement.

As you say there is not really an excuse that is going to wash, so you can't write more on that - so focus on the points Haywain makes in a second request to settle out of court.

Also - in your OP you asked about settlement costs - there are other examples on here but rule of thumb would be the full Anytime fare for the journey concerned - the whole journey that is, plus a fee to cover the costs of them investigating your case - eg looking for other examples in their records or your online purchase history etc - maybe in the region of £100. This can be compared with the costs you would face if it went to court and you were guilty (but that also comes with the criminal record which if possible it's usually best to try and avoid)

There has been a thread recently with a useful summary of sentencing costs and fine scales but I can't seem to find it at the moment - one of the regular thread advisers may have posted it.

I would put some effort into trying to continue the dialogue with Thameslink in order to seek an out of court settlement however.

People here will advise you as you take the various steps.

It has been known to agree settlements at the court with the railway's prosecutor on the day - if you are able to go to the court and speak to them ahead of the case.

 

[zowen]

We see many cases on here of Thameslink settling as opposed to going to court, so it may be worth you having another try (see @Haywain 's helpful suggestions) - even tho your reply covers the main bases you may be able to reiterate your remorse and commitment not to do it again (eg have you bought a railcard or season ticket to legitimately reduce your fares for example, if so say that) - have a look at other replies on threads that people have drafted - and eg post your draft up here for advice on content if you want to have another go at seeking a settlement.

As you say there is not really an excuse that is going to wash, so you can't write more on that - so focus on the points Haywain makes in a second request to settle out of court.

Also - in your OP you asked about settlement costs - there are other examples on here but rule of thumb would be the full Anytime fare for the journey concerned - the whole journey that is, plus a fee to cover the costs of them investigating your case - eg looking for other examples in their records or your online purchase history etc - maybe in the region of £100. This can be compared with the costs you would face if it went to court and you were guilty (but that also comes with the criminal record which if possible it's usually best to try and avoid)

Is it better to respond in writing or email? or does it not have any affect

(asking because my thread is making me wait for moderator approval)

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it better to respond in writing or email? or does it not have any affect

(asking because my thread is making me wait for moderator approval)

Unsure ref post vs e-mail myself - but always in writing (as opposed to phone), but e-mail would be faster if that is possible in terms of you being able to discuss with them - but if there is any uncertainly you can always print and post post a copy of what you have e-mailed. The e-mail needs to be written formally in any case - eg with reference numbers, your postal address etc included.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@012345. So, if we've got this right, you've boarded a Thameslink train at London Bridge, headed for Horsham, but initially only with a ticket as far as East Croydon.

You've then stayed on the train, as far as Crawley, where you encountered revenue protection, perhaps on the way out, having momentarily beforehand attempted to purchase another ticket, but only one from Gatwick Airport to Crawley.

Not sure where your final destination was, but presume this second ticket (to Crawley) was purchased shortly before or after arrival at Crawley so as to try to exit the barriers at Crawley.

Therefore, seems that when the train you were on departed East Croydon, you no longer had a valid ticket beyond that point?

This seems not to be split-faring, but to be a case of either "overriding" or "doughnutting".

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Just to add that in reference to your request for responders not to be mean, please don’t interpret anything subsequently said as being same. Sugar-coating the situation would not help you, and (for example) @Haywain is not known for beating around the bush. No-one is going to berate you unconstructively, regardless of their opinion on your actions, because apart from anything it’s against the forum rules.

 

[js1000]

Ignore the some of the posters here - all train operating companies will offer an opportunity to settle out if it is a first time offence. People seem to forget this is what the courts prefer as well and prefer to naively read the law as if it is the law and that's what happens and it always ends up in court. Also realise it's in the train operating companies interests to terrify you into never fare evading again and it appears to have had the desired effect.

However I can't help thinking something has aroused their interest and that they have evidence that you have done this multiple times before or at the very least there are irregularities in your travel patterns and ticketing. I would follow Haywain's advice of pleading your sincerest apology, explaining that you've learnt why fare evasion damages the railway and promise to never travel without a ticket again. Hopefully they will come to an out of court settlement.

 

[Haywain]

Ignore the some of the posters here - all train operating companies will offer an opportunity to settle out if it is a first time offence.

Actually not true, as can be seen on another current thread where GTR have been very clear that they are taking the matter to court.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Your normal journey is from London Bridge to Crawley but you only purchase a ticket from London Bridge to East Croydon. How were you getting through the barriers at Crawley? Have yoiu been buying another short distance ticket to enter and exit at Crawley? Were you buying all these tickets through the Trainline app?

Govia Thameslink Railway are normally one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to out of court settlements. While your initial reply would have benefitted from some refinement I don't believe it is the reason you haven't been offered a settlement. How long have you been avoiding paying the correct fare for your journey? My suspicion is you have been doing this for a considerable period of time and the evidence of it is all in the Trainline app, and this is why GTR have decided to prosecute.

Ignore the some of the posters here - all train operating companies will offer an opportunity to settle out if it is a first time offence.

This is incorrect. We have seen train companies prosecute for first time offences nd we have also seen prosecutions when the fare avoiuded has been as little as 10p.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ignore the some of the posters here - all train operating companies will offer an opportunity to settle out if it is a first time offence.

That’s not correct at all. Some train companies are more litigious than others. Tyne and Wear Metro, TFW, Chiltern, TfL to mind.

People seem to forget this is what the courts prefer as well

That’s generally true for civil matters but these are criminal offences. You do need to address all of the points in a remorse letter to obtain a settlement, even with companies who are more pragmatic and prosecute less often.

and prefer to naively read the law as if it is the law and that's what happens and it always ends up in court. Also realise it's in the train operating companies interests to terrify you into never fare evading again and it appears to have had the desired effect.

It’s also in the poster’s interest, because fare evasion is a criminal matter.

 

[island]

The stations where you started & finished your journey;

London bridge to East Croydon

I was caught at Crawley

Crawley is not between London Bridge and East Croydon.

We try our best to help on this forum, but we can only do that with true and correct information, ideally given in one go, and not drip-fed over several posts.

I'd invite you to once again answer AlterEgo's request for information in post #2, this time correctly.

 

[Krokodil]

Ignore the some of the posters here - all train operating companies will offer an opportunity to settle out if it is a first time offence.

The OP hasn't responded to the question of whether this was the first time that they'd done it. If the TOC has searched through their online account and found other suspicious activity (even if they weren't caught at the time) then they may not consider it to be a first offence.