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Should a 'road tax' be introduced for cyclists?

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The Ham

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I'm sure the police officer attending to a bunch of runaway farm animals would be happy that's the case. It says you should, so you ideally, for the benefit of all other road users, should. I think I'll take an untrained horse on the road if that's the attitude.

A police officer can still advise you of best practice if they attend somewhere where someone's done something which goes against "should", however that's very different to what they can do if you go against something which days you "must".

Few cyclists would say that they're going to go against what it says you should do, the point is that they will say that there's no reason for it to say that you must.

Car drivers are advised to do various checks of their vehicle (such as check tyre pressure, fluid levels, etc.) however few would suggest that such requirements became a legal requirement. Not doing those checks could cause harm to others, or even the occupants of the vehicle, very much in the same way that being stupid and not wearing appropriate coloured clothing puts some road users at risk (which could include pedestrians who step out when they don't see them when crossing the road).
 
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Meerkat

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Few cyclists would say that they're going to go against what it says you should do
most dont wear helmets, for very good reason.
That should be removed from the Highway Code as all it does is let insurance companies duck out of the responsibilities for paying damage to those harmed by their dangerous clients.
 

johncrossley

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The main reason for helmet advocation is to cut the number of people cycling. Places where there is mandatory helmet wearing have a low cycling rate.
 

341o2

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This is a very car-centric reasoning and a way of making cycling very unattractive. Cyclists are not inherently unsafe that they should be extremely visible. Cars are unsafe to other road users and it would be quite disproportionate to force people using a clean mode of transport, which is pretty safe to other road users, to make themselves very visible to the more dangerous mode.


That’s probably the result of the bad cycle infrastructure in the UK. This isn’t a problem in the Netherlands for example.

Exactly my previous point: good infrastructure will reduce the need to bother pedestrians. In the Netherlands cycling on a cycle path is mandatory without problems.
But here in the UK, there are cyclists who have their rights in that they are not obliged to use a cycle lane where provided.
Any attempt to enforce the law is met by an angry blast of "anti cycling" as when a local force decided to deploy a couple of officers to wait by a "no cycling" sign
 

LSWR Cavalier

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The main reason for helmet advocation is to cut the number of people cycling. Places where there is mandatory helmet wearing have a low cycling rate.
Just that happened in Australia. If the cops there apprehend a cyclist without a helmet, they deflate his tires so he has to walk home!

A helmet makes the head bigger and heavier, and for example if you fall off and land on your shoulder by a kerb, the helmet could catch the kerb and wrench the head round, with disastrous consequences.

"The works" near me issued helmets to people who cycle to work, they must be worn on site. Many people do not like wearing a helmet while cycling home, you see helmets dangling from their handlebars. A safety helmet falling from the bars could cause a serious accident.

Are we talking about unintended consequences here? I think not, we know enough now to foresee the consequences in many cases.
 

Factotum

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The person on the bike is being asked to make themselves more visible, not the bike, since you all like being technical. If you don't wish to wear protective items, you're not only breaking the highway code, but also won't have my sympathy when you're run over.

Well they don't enforce your wearing of reflective items either.

Knife crime is also a far larger problem than firearms crime, but I don't see everything into firearms offences being dropped and all the resources put into knife crime. Just because there are bigger problems, doesn't mean smaller problems should be ignored.

Everything should be a give and take, however you guys want to take and don't seemingly want to give.

Nor do we criticise victims of knife crime and reduce their insurance payout because they were not wearing a kevlar vest.

Just that happened in Australia. If the cops there apprehend a cyclist without a helmet, they deflate his tires so he has to walk home!
Do Australian cyclists not carry pumps?
 

The Ham

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most dont wear helmets, for very good reason.
That should be removed from the Highway Code as all it does is let insurance companies duck out of the responsibilities for paying damage to those harmed by their dangerous clients.

I was replying to comments about hi-viz, not helmets. (Although I don't disagree with your post).
 

miami

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Blimey, you must cycle fast to do that much damage to a police car!

100kg bike+driver at say 30mph (not many riders get over that) has same energy (9kJ) as a 2 ton car going 7mph.

I'd be happy with any car with a top speed of 7mph not requiring police style reflective strips down the side, any any car with a faster top speed having them. Once that's implemented we can talk about the requirements for cyclists to wear high vis.
 

biko

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But here in the UK, there are cyclists who have their rights in that they are not obliged to use a cycle lane where provided.
Any attempt to enforce the law is met by an angry blast of "anti cycling" as when a local force decided to deploy a couple of officers to wait by a "no cycling" sign
That’s why I tried to say that you can only make it compulsory if the facilities are good. I only see cyclists in the Netherlands ignore the cycle path in cases where it is very inconvenient, but those places are rare. The UK has pretty bad cycling facilities around junctions. If that’s solved, I think it will possible to make use of cycle paths obligatory.
 

LOL The Irony

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That should be removed from the Highway Code as all it does is let insurance companies duck out of the responsibilities for paying damage to those harmed by their dangerous clients.
Well then the new rule allowing you guys to ride in the middle of the lane should also be removed. This is just proving that cyclists are take take take and refuse to give anything.
The main reason for helmet advocation is to cut the number of people cycling.
Sure pal.
Places where there is mandatory helmet wearing have a low cycling rate.
NOOOOOOOO! MAKING PEOPLE WEAR SAFETY DEVICES IS STOPPING THEM FROM TAKING UP OUR MODE OF TRANSPORT!

How about making it more attractive in other ways? If making people wear safety equipment drives them away, it's not a very good mode of transport then, is it?
Nor do we criticise victims of knife crime and reduce their insurance payout because they were not wearing a kevlar vest.
Any person not involved in gangs doesn't make the conscious decision to put themselves in a situation where they get stabbed. When you go out in any road vehicle, you accept the small possibility that you'll be involved in an accident that causes you injuries requiring medical treatment. It's the reason why most vehicles are required to have insurance. In fact, you can probably get insurance to cover cycling if you look hard enough.
I'd be happy with any car with a top speed of 7mph not requiring police style reflective strips down the side, any any car with a faster top speed having them. Once that's implemented we can talk about the requirements for cyclists to wear high vis.
Motor vehicles are now required to be fitted with daytime running lights to make them more visible to other road users. I have already said this, but you seem to be ignoring it because it doesn't fit the narrative that cyclists are poor, defenceless creatures against cars.
I think it will possible to make use of cycle paths obligatory.
Good.
 

biko

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How about making it more attractive in other ways? If making people wear safety equipment drives them away, it's not a very good mode of transport then, is it?
Eh, that's a really weird way of reasoning. The only reason why a cyclist would use safety equipment is because of cars and motorised vehicles. So according to your line of reasoning, walking is even more dangerous and is very bad. Cycling isn't unsafe to others, cars are. This sounds like an American way of thinking where everyone should drive a car and the whole environment is based on cars.
You quoted very selectively. Only if the infrastructure is good enough, you can make use of paths obligatory on roads with a parallel path. Actually, I believe in practice most people will cycle on the paths out of their own will as soon as the paths are of a high quality.
 

LOL The Irony

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Eh, that's a really weird way of reasoning. The only reason why a cyclist would use safety equipment is because of cars and motorised vehicles. So according to your line of reasoning, walking is even more dangerous and is very bad.
Pedestrians tend to look left and right when crossing, cyclists tend to ignore traffic signals. I know which group are safer.
Cycling isn't unsafe to others
Perhaps you'd like to tell the family of Kim Briggs, who was hit and killed by an out of control, self centred cyclist that.

Leave an idiot in charge of anything, and they can kill.
All road vehicles present a danger to one another.
This sounds like an American way of thinking where everyone should drive a car and the whole environment is based on cars.
My point is that if cyclists want more freedoms, they should also have more responsibilities instead of having their cake and eating it. Also, the green party in your country tried to stop people having fun last year, because the fun involved cars.
You quoted very selectively. Only if the infrastructure is good enough, you can make use of paths obligatory on roads with a parallel path.
Good, have your paths.
 

The Ham

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Perhaps you'd like to tell the family of Kim Briggs, who was hit and killed by an out of control, self centred cyclist that.
Leave an idiot in charge of anything, and they can kill.

Indeed, however the average number of road deaths per day is 5 whilst the average number of road deaths in which a cyclist was a factor in the death is about 1/2 that per year.

However fitness from cycling reduces deaths by more than this and from those cyclists who also die on the roads. As such, regardless of what any of us think the government had made it clear that they aren't going to impose any additional requirements on cyclists.
 

py_megapixel

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This is just proving that cyclists are take take take and refuse to give anything.
While motorists are clearly always altruistic and only too happy to put the concerns of other road users before themselves. Especially when they do things like parking obstructively, reversing outside a school without looking and almost running over a bunch of kids, cutting across lanes at roundabouts and almost causing collisions, and making posts on internet forums advocating the effective exclusion of a specific group of people from the roads.

I have seen all of these in the past few months.

:rolleyes:

How about making it more attractive in other ways? If making people wear safety equipment drives them away, it's not a very good mode of transport then, is it?
As has already been established five pages ago, it's ineffective safety equipment against what the actual threat to cyclists is.

cyclists tend to ignore traffic signals.
Maybe where you live they do. Most of the ones I see round here either wait with the cars or dismount and cross the junction as a pedestrian, both of which are perfectly safe and legal.

All road vehicles present a danger to one another.
Yes, but the bigger, heavier ones pose more danger to the smaller, lighter ones than the other way round. If someone gave you the choice between being hit by a double-decker bus or a Fiat Punto, both on the same road at 30mph, which would you choose?

Also, the green party in your country tried to stop people having fun last year, because the fun involved cars.
Oh lovely. Let's judge people based on the actions of politicians in their country of living that they may or may not have affiliation with or support for. You'd better be glad I'm not judging you based on what I think of Boris Johnson's capability as a leader.
 

biko

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Pedestrians tend to look left and right when crossing, cyclists tend to ignore traffic signals. I know which group are safer.
I've seen enough pedestrians not looking when crossing the road, ironically on a cycle path. Not looking isn't a property of the cycle itself, it is a property of the user. That applies to drivers as well. That's why you take precautions of course, but logically, you take more legal precautions with vehicles that are most unsafe to others. the law has the main goal to protect other people. That you see some cyclists ignoring traffic signals is probably also a consequence of bad infrastructure, which can easily be solved by giving cyclists their own phase at a junction.
Perhaps you'd like to tell the family of Kim Briggs, who was hit and killed by an out of control, self centred cyclist that.
Leave an idiot in charge of anything, and they can kill.
It's quite difficult to kill somebody with a bicycle as the mass is so low. If you look long enough, you'll also find articles of pedestrians killing someone, for example by letting someone fragile trip over. The probability and impact are important. Cycles present a very small probability of a high impact collision with someone else. Not only because of the weight, but also because it is quite easy to steer around things.
All road vehicles present a danger to one another.
Yes, but the extent and impact varies. Lorries present a lot more danger than cars, and cars a lot more than cyclists.
My point is that if cyclists want more freedoms, they should also have more responsibilities instead of having their cake and eating it.
Own responsibility is quite high now in the UK as facilities are not present and the roads are quite hostile to cyclists. Freedom to go where you want to go on a bicycle will increase with investment in good infrastructure. That will help other road users too as cyclists won't need to cycle on the main carriageway anymore if there is a good alternative. So the people who hate cyclists the most, should be the biggest proponent of good cycling infrastructure!
Also, the green party in your country tried to stop people having fun last year, because the fun involved cars.
If it would be true, so what? It hasn't anything to do with the topic. It is not correct by the way. Many parties wanted to stop the Grand Prix it because of the fact that many nitrogen-emitting activities close to nature reserves, such as construction of a house, are banned because of a court order. Only if something else reduces emissions, it is allowed to increase emissions. Why this is necessary is a long story relating to bad government decisions in the past and ignoring the problem while actively committing to reductions. The Green Party and many others found it ridiculous that the government tried hard to reduce nitrogen emissions by stopping the construction of houses, reducing speed limits on the roads and many other things, while permitting a Grand Prix next to a protected nature reserve.
Oh lovely. Let's judge people based on the actions of politicians in their country of living that they may or may not have affiliation with or support for. You'd better be glad I'm not judging you based on what I think of Boris Johnson's capability as a leader.
Even funnier is that the Green Party is quite small and certainly not in charge. Mirroring it, I think I should judge all UK citizens on the opinion of the Liberal Democrats.
 

stuu

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Well then the new rule allowing you guys to ride in the middle of the lane should also be removed. This is just proving that cyclists are take take take and refuse to give anything.
As adult cyclists are on average higher earners, I think you will find that cyclists are giving quite a lot more than they are receiving.

Saying you want cyclists to cycle in a less safe way says a lot about you and your agenda
 

LSWR Cavalier

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As adult cyclists are on average higher earners, I think you will find that cyclists are giving quite a lot more than they are receiving.

So do lower earners tend to drive, not cycle?

Interesting observation at a foot crossing today where signs instruct cyclists to dismount before crossing the track. Saw two cyclists, both dismounted! Most just zigzag through the barriers where trains do 40-50 mph.
 

miami

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Motor vehicles are now required to be fitted with daytime running lights to make them more visible to other road users. I have already said this, but you seem to be ignoring it because it doesn't fit the narrative that cyclists are poor, defenceless creatures against cars.

But not reflective stripes, indeed they are allowed to be fog grey.

It's very simple. An order of magnitude more people are killed walking on the pavement by drivers than by cyclists, let alone the even greater numbers killed in the road.

Therefore we need to protect pedestrians against cars by banning cars from being driven near pedestrians. Their drivers can get out and push if they need to pass them.

As for head injuries, thousands more people suffer major head injuries when travelling in a car than when travelling on a bike, therefore all car occupants must be made to wear a helmet.

While pedestrians do occasionally suffer head injuries by themselves, it's almost always because of a motorist, like this case from this week.

By banning cars from being close to pedestrians this should solve that problem.



Sadly car drivers kill and seriously injure pedestrians every day, you don't need to dig out a report for 5 years ago for an example.


Two people dead in the same hour in separate incidents on the same day.


So do lower earners tend to drive, not cycle?


NTS0705, they tend to walk.

Bike trips by household income percentile. bold = above average
<20%: 16
20-40%: 15
40-60%: 28
60-80%: 18
80-100%: 25

Train trips by household income percentile
<20%: 11
20-40%: 10
40-60%: 9
60-80%: 10
80-100%: 14

Car (driver+passenger)
<20%: 316
20-40%: 428
40-60%: 453
60-80%: 477
80-100%: 467

Car:Bike ratio (lower == more likely on a bike)

<20%: 20
20-40%: 29
40-60%: 16
60-80%: 27
80-100%: 19

So the most likely to use a bike rather than a car are middle earners, followed equally by top and bottom earners.
 
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LOL The Irony

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Indeed, however the average number of road deaths per day is 5 whilst the average number of road deaths in which a cyclist was a factor in the death is about 1/2 that per year.
Well that would be because there are more motor vehicles on the road than bicycles. This can be proven by the fact that the deadliest cars also tend to be the most popular.

However, considering 7.5 million people cycle in the UK, you'd expect there to be 15 million cars licensed. There's actually over 30 million cars licensed, meaning, you're twice as likely to be involved in a fatal accident on a bike than in a car.
However fitness from cycling reduces deaths by more than this and from those cyclists who also die on the roads.
There are better ways to get fit, including cycling, that doesn't involve doing it on the public highway. For starters, the pollution you're breathing in.
As such, regardless of what any of us think the government had made it clear that they aren't going to impose any additional requirements on cyclists.
That's because they're a bunch of wet blankets who are more bothered with their egos and political careers than issues facing their country. See "smart" motorways and stupidly bright vehicle lights.
I've seen enough pedestrians not looking when crossing the road, ironically on a cycle path. Not looking isn't a property of the cycle itself, it is a property of the user. That applies to drivers as well.
Well then when do some people here seem to be putting that responsibility solely on car drivers? Once again, it's take take take and refusing to accept that cyclists can also screw up.
That's why you take precautions of course, but logically, you take more legal precautions with vehicles that are most unsafe to others. the law has the main goal to protect other people.
So make yourselves more visible then, or do you think that the law should only protect people under the circumstances you want it to? Seriously, why do you guys want the law to protect you, but are so averse it making you more visible?
That you see some cyclists ignoring traffic signals is probably also a consequence of bad infrastructure, which can easily be solved by giving cyclists their own phase at a junction.
So poor infrastructure gives me the excuse to ignore traffic laws? Duly noted, I guess.
It's quite difficult to kill somebody with a bicycle as the mass is so low. If you look long enough, you'll also find articles of pedestrians killing someone, for example by letting someone fragile trip over.
Well we all know this but some posters keep coming up with silly strawman arguments to try and prove cars bad, bikes good, when they should all be treated equally as forms of transport, as both, at the end of the day, are mostly personal forms of transport and inferior in that regard to rail and buses. So I wind up having to fight fire with fire and pull things out of my rear as well.

Also if I brought up that letting fragile people trip over thing, someone would've already tried to say that I was suggesting all vulnerable pedestrians have someone walk with them at all times, ready to catch them if they trip over. But I know you're just trying to point out that we could find evidence supporting our side of the argument if we look hard enough.
That will help other road users too as cyclists won't need to cycle on the main carriageway anymore if there is a good alternative. So the people who hate cyclists the most, should be the biggest proponent of good cycling infrastructure!
Keeps those lycra ones on the 5 grand plastic bikes off the road? Good.
If it would be true, so what? It hasn't anything to do with the topic. It is not correct by the way. Many parties wanted to stop the Grand Prix it because of the fact that many nitrogen-emitting activities close to nature reserves, such as construction of a house, are banned because of a court order. Only if something else reduces emissions, it is allowed to increase emissions. Why this is necessary is a long story relating to bad government decisions in the past and ignoring the problem while actively committing to reductions. The Green Party and many others found it ridiculous that the government tried hard to reduce nitrogen emissions by stopping the construction of houses, reducing speed limits on the roads and many other things, while permitting a Grand Prix next to a protected nature reserve.
"Our government is run by idiots, so lets sue the track hosting the race in an attempt to stop the government being idiots, whilst ruining everyone's fun". A stance even more stupid, when you find out that the racing itself produces just 1% of F1's total CO2 output. And remind me, didn't most of the fans arrive by public transport anyways?
As adult cyclists are on average higher earners, I think you will find that cyclists are giving quite a lot more than they are receiving.

Saying you want cyclists to cycle in a less safe way says a lot about you and your agenda
Another person doing a great job of taking what I said out of context. For those who want the context, @Meerkat said that they thought that the suggestion in the highway code that tells cyclists to wear safety equipment should be removed because it gives insurance companies and drivers get out of jail free cards. So I disagreed with them and said that if they want that to be the case, the new rule allowing bikes to ride in the middle of the lane should also be removed. In fact, I believe it was made quite clear in my post, so anyone seeing it in any other way, must be wanting to take it out of context.

Also since high earners tend to drive BMWs and Range Rovers, 2 types of cars usually associated with by people who act like they own the show or can't drive, and high earners tend to be the people buying these 5 grand plastic racing bikes, a type of bike usually associated with people who act like they own the show or can't ride...
So do lower earners tend to drive, not cycle?
From personal experience, this is the case. Part of it is probably because low earners have other things to worry about than cycling. That however, doesn't mean it's the case everywhere.
But not reflective stripes, indeed they are allowed to be fog grey.
Bikes are also allowed to be fog grey.
It's very simple. An order of magnitude more people are killed walking on the pavement by drivers than by cyclists, let alone the even greater numbers killed in the road.
Well that would be because there are more people driving than cycling.
Therefore we need to protect pedestrians against cars by banning cars from being driven near pedestrians. Their drivers can get out and push if they need to pass them.
I much prefer walking to cycling, I do it all the time actually and I'm fine with cars driving near me. I mean, you can just look when you cross and wait for a large enough gap in traffic to cross.
As for head injuries, thousands more people suffer major head injuries when travelling in a car than when travelling on a bike, therefore all car occupants must be made to wear a helmet.
But there are millions more car users than bike users.
While pedestrians do occasionally suffer head injuries by themselves, it's almost always because of a motorist, like this case from this week.
Do you know this to be the case?
 

The Ham

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Well that would be because there are more motor vehicles on the road than bicycles. This can be proven by the fact that the deadliest cars also tend to be the most popular.

However, considering 7.5 million people cycle in the UK, you'd expect there to be 15 million cars licensed. There's actually over 30 million cars licensed, meaning, you're twice as likely to be involved in a fatal accident on a bike than in a car.

Yes there's 30 million cars and 7 million cycles, and if there were 1/2 the number of deaths per day from cycles you'd be right, that's not what I said, please reread:

Indeed, however the average number of road deaths per day is 5 whilst the average number of road deaths in which a cyclist was a factor in the death is about 1/2 that per year.

Yes that last word is year, so not a factor of 2 between cycles and cars (as if it would be if it was a daily figure, which of the figure for cars) it's a factor of ~700.

As such allowing for numbers is still about 350 times worse for cars.

Let's look at the average number of miles traveled per person (as cars travel a lot more than a cycle), by bike, that's 54, which compares to ~7,000 by each car. That's 130 times the number of miles per car, as such that's still a significant gap (ratio of ~1:2.7) between the risk of death per million miles for cycling and pet million miles for cars.
 

biko

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Well then when do some people here seem to be putting that responsibility solely on car drivers? Once again, it's take take take and refusing to accept that cyclists can also screw up.
Nobody does that. Every road user has a responsibility. Police should also write tickets for bad behaving cyclists. But if you use a heavier, bigger and thus more dangerous vehicle, you should bear more responsibility. One tiny mistake and the consequences are huge, mostly for other people. That's why the law has so many restrictions on driving. On a bicycle, the consequences are way smaller and as a pedestrian, consequences for others are negligible (they do exist, but very very small). Roads are for everyone, so the users presenting more danger to other users are restricted, especially on shared roads.
So make yourselves more visible then, or do you think that the law should only protect people under the circumstances you want it to? Seriously, why do you guys want the law to protect you, but are so averse it making you more visible?
If a cyclist wants to make themselves more visible, they should do it, but nobody should be forced. It gives the wrong signal. Cycling itself is not unsafe, the vehicles make it unsafe, so why should the cyclists be burdened by making the road safer for themselves? Drivers should be aware cyclists are just other road users and anticipate on that.
So poor infrastructure gives me the excuse to ignore traffic laws? Duly noted, I guess.
No, it makes it just more understandable that some people do. How many pedestrians cross a road at red traffic lights if they don't see vehicles coming? Many. That could be solved by improving the traffic light program or design of the junction. Good infrastructure helps compliance with rules, that's true for all modes. Roads that are logically designed help for example with reducing speeding.
Well we all know this but some posters keep coming up with silly strawman arguments to try and prove cars bad, bikes good, when they should all be treated equally as forms of transport, as both, at the end of the day, are mostly personal forms of transport and inferior in that regard to rail and buses. So I wind up having to fight fire with fire and pull things out of my rear as well.
Partially agree. Everyone is a road user, but the impact a user has on others should be considered. Cars have their uses, but the status now is that cars are best and everything needs to be fitted around them. That is a bad starting point. Looking from a sustainability point of view, cycling and walking are better than rail and buses. No emissions of anything and space usage is tiny. Next in the ranking are buses and rail, followed by car sharing and private cars at the end.
Also if I brought up that letting fragile people trip over thing, someone would've already tried to say that I was suggesting all vulnerable pedestrians have someone walk with them at all times, ready to catch them if they trip over. But I know you're just trying to point out that we could find evidence supporting our side of the argument if we look hard enough.
I was trying to make the point that every mode of transport has some form of danger in it. Partly for the user itself and partly for other road users. The probabilities of accidents and impacts only wildly differ.
Keeps those lycra ones on the 5 grand plastic bikes off the road? Good.
Yes, them too. But those are a tiny minority, especially if you improve cycling infrastructure.
"Our government is run by idiots, so lets sue the track hosting the race in an attempt to stop the government being idiots, whilst ruining everyone's fun".
I still don't get what the relevance is. I would agree the Dutch government is run by some incapable people, but the rest is nonsense. The track wasn't sued by any political party and the whole court order did not relate to the Grand Prix, but to the whole policy around nitrogen.
A stance even more stupid, when you find out that the racing itself produces just 1% of F1's total CO2 output.
Many parties were opposed because the whole emissions of everyone coming to the Netherlands. But the court order was about nitrogen emissions, not CO2.
And remind me, didn't most of the fans arrive by public transport anyways?
Yes, but has no relevance.
Bikes are also allowed to be fog grey.
Now, but you'd like to change that.
Well that would be because there are more people driving than cycling.
Yes, but correcting for that, car drivers cause still much more harm than cyclists.
Do you know this to be the case?
Yes, many studies have shown this.
 

WelshBluebird

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cyclists tend to ignore traffic signals
I'd love to see a source for that.
Most road users don't ignore traffic signals. Some do, and motorists are aa guilty of that as any other road user.
Perhaps you'd like to tell the family of Kim Briggs, who was hit and killed by an out of control, self centred cyclist that.
I mean I can post news articles of people killed by motorists too if you'd like. As I'm sure you know, a road user is much much more likely to be killed by a motorist than a cyclist.
 

AndrewP

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Thanks for the comments on what I said - some rational some not. Its nice to know some people think they know what I am thinking better than I do :D

There are some people on this thread who should not be allowed on the road whether on foot, bike car, can or anything else - they'd still be dangerous!
 

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Thanks for the comments on what I said - some rational some not. Its nice to know some people think they know what I am thinking better than I do :D

If you post something to a discussion forum it gets discussed. The outcome of that discussion may not be to your favour, and having read your previous contributions to this thread, while they are more moderate than some I very much hope it is not. We should not make any law changes that discourage cycling, because cycling is to be encouraged in all its (law-abiding) forms.

There is certainly one person on this thread (not you) who I do strongly feel should hand in his driving licence as he is not fit to be on the road.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Thanks for the comments on what I said - some rational some not. Its nice to know some people think they know what I am thinking better than I do :D

There are some people on this thread who should not be allowed on the road whether on foot, bike car, can or anything else - they'd still be dangerous!
Fortunately (?) they travel by train.

I favor incentives of some sort to encourage people to use appropriate cycles, not too elaborate, perhaps a gear tax.
Anyone who has maintained cycles knows how heavy hub gears and derailleur sprocket sets are. I have one gear only (not many hills here, so I detour to climb the railway bridge). Cannot get over the lightness and simplicity and lack of chain wear. I do have one cycle with seven gears, but it is gathering dust. I just get it out occasionally to pump up the tires.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fortunately (?) they travel by train.

I favor incentives of some sort to encourage people to use appropriate cycles, not too elaborate, perhaps a gear tax.
Anyone who has maintained cycles knows how heavy hub gears and derailleur sprocket sets are.

Derailleur sprocket sets are not particularly heavy compared with the overall weight of a fully-equipped hybrid urban cycle which is the kind we want to see more of as they are well suited to utility cycling of the type which should be really strongly encouraged.

I'm thinking of one equipped with mudguards, rack, dynamo lighting etc and with a large, comfortable saddle and a "sit up and beg" geometry.

Hub gears aren't as well suited to the UK because it's generally a bit too hilly for the large jumps between gears to work well, and often the overall gear range is too small. I had one and didn't really like it for that reason, also taking the wheel off to change an innertube* or fit it in the car is a huge faff compared with a derailleur.

* I know you can repair, but I prefer to put a new one on to get moving quickly and repair, if worthwhile, at home at my leisure.

I have one gear only (not many hills here, so I detour to climb the railway bridge). Cannot get over the lightness and simplicity and lack of chain wear. I do have one cycle with seven gears, but it is gathering dust. I just get it out occasionally to pump up the tires.

Great that your knees are up to that (or you live somewhere totally flat) - mine aren't (and I don't)!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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@Bletchleyite

Not totally flat by any means, there are headwinds too so I use a low gear. I rode fixed many years ago, tried it again when I retired, do not want to go back to 'derailment' gears.

Perhaps you could test ride a fixed-wheel cycle (have you ever ridden one? ) if you get the chance, you might be surprised as I was.
..
Hub gears might be unfashionable in the UK but there is a lot to recommend them, especially with back-pedal brakes.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not totally flat by any means, there are headwinds too so I use a low gear. I rode fixed many years ago, tried it again when I retired, do not want to go back to 'derailment' gears.

Perhaps you could test ride a fixed-wheel cycle (have you ever ridden one? ) if you get the chance, you might be surprised as I was.

Not tried a "fixie" i.e. one without a freewheel, not sure there is really much of a benefit to those, they are I think in many ways like driving a classic car with a crash gearbox - a skill that you can enjoy applying well, but not something that specifically makes sense as a mode of transport.

Similarly I've not tried singlespeed but I did find a three-speed hub to have too few ranges to work with my knees/bulk and MK's hills (it's a lot hillier than you'd think, and the Redways duck and dive under and over roads, often with a steep climb immediately after a sharp turn so you can't use momentum to carry you forward).

Hub gears might be unfashionable in the UK but there is a lot to recommend them, especially with back-pedal brakes.

I've had them but I personally found derailleurs worked better in the UK due to the larger choice of ratios, ease of maintenance (i.e. removing the rear wheel) and lower cost. Generally trouble with them is caused either because they get knocked (fitting a guard is a good idea and very cheap and easy) or because they are cheap, low quality ones.

Indeed cheap bikes (typically under about £100-150 these days, so the likes of Halfords' Apollo range* or pretty much everything on sale at Cycle King branches) are no end of trouble in terms of putting people off cycling. They are fine for a once-in-a-while leisure ride with the kids round a local lake, but useless for almost any other purpose.

* Their Carrera and Boardman brands sell much better kit, so I'd not write them off entirely.
 

seagull

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Over my years of a 40+ mile commute I think on balance there are probably as many incidents I can recall of motorists disobeying the rules of the road as I can of cyclists. However as a percentage of users on the road, therefore cyclists take the lead (usually failure to give way at a T-junction or roundabout, and failure to stop at a red light).

Particularly galling, as a considerate motorist (because I also cycle) are the times where, having sat behind a cyclist for a long time awaiting a gap in oncoming traffic and a safe overtake, at the next set of traffic lights the aforementioned cyclist whizzes straight through the red, and causes a repeat of the whole process. Happened three times in a row recently.

As a cyclist myself too, I find the suicidal tendencies of some fellow cyclists (and indeed motorcyclists) hard to understand. If we get hit we are far more likely to suffer life-changing injuries, so one would think being careful is essential.

Finally and back on topic, no, I do not believe a tax on cyclists is appropriate, but more training and/or enforcement of road rules would be an idea.
 

Bletchleyite

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more training and/or enforcement of road rules would be an idea.

The vast, vast majority of "antisocial road use" issues occur because we have moved from having actual police watching people to see if they are committing crimes to pretty much 100% automatic camera enforcement, which can only enforce specific offences and only against those displaying number plates.

Almost all of these issues would be resolved if we had actual Police on the streets again.
 
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