Should Bridlington be served by long distance trains?

[Philip]

As the the thread title says, should there be more than just local and regional rail services going to Bridlington?

I can't remember any form of TPE service in the privatised era running to Bridlington, although I'm guessing there may have been a skeleton service at some point in the early years? Nonetheless it seems to be the forgotten seaside town as far as TPE is concerned, with Scarborough and Cleethorpes being rather overserved from far distance and questionable passenger market places like Liverpool and Manchester.

Would it be a good idea if either the Scarborough or the Cleethorpes service (whichever is quicker) instead ran at a bi-hourly pattern, with Bridlington served in the other hour? Whilst I doubt there is much market from Liverpool, perhaps there may be something stronger from Manchester? Also it would provide an additional fast service from either Leeds or Sheffield.

Going further afield, is there a strong market for a London service in a similar arrangement to the Sunderland, Bradford, Halifax, Blackpool and Shrewsbury services?

 

[Ianno87]

Pretty sure that Northern Spirit-era TPE had some Manchester-Hull services extend to Scarborough (or vice-versa) in the early 2000s.

Makes me wonder whether Hull Trains have considered any further extension beyond Beverely.

 

[Starmill]

If Hull Trains hadn't suffered so very badly from the pandemic's effects I would have said that Driffield and Bridlington could be good opportunities for growth of the business, much as Beverley and then Cottingham were. They might have run another pair of trains to Beverley first though, and of course it depends how well that's going.

 

[cle]

I'd never really even heard of Bridlington after my many years living in both London and Manchester. I would say demand is close to nil. Mancs go to Blackpool for a laugh, North Wales sometimes, but otherwise don't tend to make mass seaside day trips like places closer and with more affinity to the coast - they jump on flights!

Demand would only be London-bound. On that, I'm not sure. As with a lot of these places, good links to York and/or Doncaster will usually cut it.

 

[Neptune]

Bridlington has direct services to/from York and to/from Sheffield/Doncaster which provide decent connections from most places. If not those services then Hull connects Leeds/Manchester.

Brid also has very good bus links and a huge cheap car park.

Combined this all pretty much covers Bridlington’s needs adequately.

I think this is another that should be filed under ‘solution looking for a problem’.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

As the the thread title says, should there be more than just local and regional rail services going to Bridlington?

I can't remember any form of TPE service in the privatised era running to Bridlington, although I'm guessing there may have been a skeleton service at some point in the early years? Nonetheless it seems to be the forgotten seaside town as far as TPE is concerned, with Scarborough and Cleethorpes being rather overserved from far distance and questionable passenger market places like Liverpool and Manchester.

Would it be a good idea if either the Scarborough or the Cleethorpes service (whichever is quicker) instead ran at a bi-hourly pattern, with Bridlington served in the other hour? Whilst I doubt there is much market from Liverpool, perhaps there may be something stronger from Manchester? Also it would provide an additional fast service from either Leeds or Sheffield.

Going further afield, is there a strong market for a London service in a similar arrangement to the Sunderland, Bradford, Halifax, Blackpool and Shrewsbury services?

Running either the Cleethorpes or Scarborough service bi-hourly is NOT a good idea.

The service was actually fairly well used pre-Covid and i dont support cuts.

 

[Philip]

Bridlington has direct services to/from York and to/from Sheffield/Doncaster which provide decent connections from most places. If not those services then Hull connects Leeds/Manchester.

Brid also has very good bus links and a huge cheap car park.

Combined this all pretty much covers Bridlington’s needs adequately.

I think this is another that should be filed under ‘solution looking for a problem’.

But the question is will direct services to the places suggested increase demand and possibly bring good tourism income to the place? A quick look at the live departures page suggested the Sheffield service isn't great either, taking a long time; so a faster service to Sheffield and then on to London, Manchester etc may be of great benefit.

Can you really be sure that Cleethorpes to Manchester is a bigger market than Bridlington to Manchester?

 

[JonathanH]

Can you really be sure that Cleethorpes to Manchester is a bigger market than Bridlington to Manchester?

It doesn't have to be. Cleethorpes is a natural terminal for a service running to Scunthorpe and Grimsby, just as Hull is a natural terminal for services from Manchester. Given the need to reverse at Hull (as you aren't likely to want to use the avoiding line), Bridlington is not a natural terminal for services from Manchester.

Moreover, TPE would need to lease extra trains. Is the extension to Bridlington you propose instead of or additional to a Northern service?

 

[Philip]

It doesn't have to be. Cleethorpes is a natural terminal for a service running to Scunthorpe and Grimsby, just as Hull is a natural terminal for services from Manchester. Given the need to reverse at Hull (as you aren't likely to want to use the avoiding line), Bridlington is not a natural terminal for services from Manchester.

Moreover, TPE would need to lease extra trains. Is the extension to Bridlington you propose instead of or additional to a Northern service?

But the South TPE doesn't have to always run to Grimsby and Scunthorpe; like Cleethorpes these places don't need an hourly service to Manchester. An idea could be to run fast from Sheffield to Hull in a bi-hourly pattern (think this has been mentioned before) and that's where you could then extend northwards along the coast.

 

[JonathanH]

But the South TPE doesn't have to always run to Grimsby and Scunthorpe; like Cleethorpes these places don't need an hourly service to Manchester. An idea could be to run fast from Sheffield to Hull in a bi-hourly pattern (think this has been mentioned before) and that's where you could then extend northwards along the coast.

Why would anyone travel from Manchester to Bridlington via the Hope Valley and Sheffield? There is no obvious advantage to that service being joined up as it is much slower than the route via Leeds.

Sheffield to Bridlington and Scarborough already uses 170s and is as quick as it is going to get. There doesn't seem to be any advantage in stringing that up with the Manchester to Sheffield service at all.

 

[Philip]

Why would anyone travel from Manchester to Bridlington via the Hope Valley and Sheffield? There is no obvious advantage to that service being joined up as it is much slower than the route via Leeds.

Sheffield to Bridlington and Scarborough already uses 170s and is as quick as it is going to get. There doesn't seem to be any advantage in stringing that up with the Manchester to Sheffield service at all.

A different way then could be to use the current Scarborough path and run half of them via York and half via Hull and Bridlington. Also means Beverley gains the bi-hourly service and Hull gets the increased frequency to Manchester as has been suggested before.

I think Northern could improve their existing service from the Yorkshire Coast to Sheffield in the meantime; a new hourly service to Hull and then the Scarborough service can use the Hull avoiding line and save quite a lot on journey time.

 

[Neptune]

But the question is will direct services to the places suggested increase demand and possibly bring good tourism income to the place? A quick look at the live departures page suggested the Sheffield service isn't great either, taking a long time; so a faster service to Sheffield and then on to London, Manchester etc may be of great benefit.

Therein lies that wonderful word ‘may’.

Can I ask what research you’ve done in Bridlington to assume that this average sized resort seemingly needs direct services from London, Manchester etc?

You can’t have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere. There simply isn’t space or resilience. Look around the forum to find out why.

It’s good to have ideas but a sense of realism is also required. It’s no good looking for a place with reasonable seasonal traffic and then filling that place with trains of imaginary tourists from all 4 corners of the country.

Hull is an excellent interchange station for the Wolds Coast line and I’ve never heard of any problems for people changing there (I’ve done it myself travelling from Leeds - Brid). Hull does have direct services from London, Manchester and Leeds remember.

 

[JonathanH]

A different way then could be to use the current Scarborough path and run half of them via York and half via Hull and Bridlington.

You might want to check the journey time from Manchester to Scarborough on that idea. The service would be irrelevant for through journeys.

I think Northern could improve their existing service from the Yorkshire Coast to Sheffield in the meantime; a new hourly service to Hull and then the Scarborough service can use the Hull avoiding line and save quite a lot on journey time.

All of these services need to be led by the resources available and the cost of the provision relative to the numbers of passengers. Is there enough demand to miss out Hull? I would imagine there isn't year round. There are already five trains an hour, sometimes six, over the Hull to Brough route. In most hours two of them come from Bridlington. The fact that none miss Hull out is somewhat telling.

 

[Philip]

Therein lies that wonderful word ‘may’.

Can I ask what research you’ve done in Bridlington to assume that this average sized resort seemingly needs direct services from London, Manchester etc?

You can’t have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere. There simply isn’t space or resilience. Look around the forum to find out why.

It’s good to have ideas but a sense of realism is also required. It’s no good looking for a place with reasonable seasonal traffic and then filling that place with trains of imaginary tourists from all 4 corners of the country.

Hull is an excellent interchange station for the Wolds Coast line and I’ve never heard of any problems for people changing there (I’ve done it myself travelling from Leeds - Brid). Hull does have direct services from London, Manchester and Leeds remember.

I haven't done any research on the matter, but I believe the railway should be there to open up new journey opportunities and that it is better to serve more places with an hourly service rather than overserving certain places and taking up paths which could go elsewhere (ie. sending so many long distance services to Manchester Airport). In this case, the question is does Manchester-York need the frequency it currently has and would it be of greater overall benefit to use one of these paths in the way I suggest? There is talk of the Manchester-Scarborough service being curtailed at York, so this would seem a good candidate to divert to Hull and then onto the Yorkshire Coast.

 

[JonathanH]

In this case, the question is does Manchester-York need the frequency it currently has and would it be of greater overall benefit to use one of these paths in the way I suggest? There is talk of the Manchester-Scarborough service being curtailed at York, so this would seem a good candidate to divert to Hull and then onto the Yorkshire Coast.

The issue is at the east end of Leeds station. Diverting a service from York to Hull doesn't help that.

 

[mike57]

Back in I think the early 2000's Transpennine service to Hull were extended to Bridlington and Scarborough, I once caught a train from Manchester direct to Bempton, very convenient for me but not exactly a core market. I actually think the current service is pretty good, you have 1 train per hour going to Hull Doncaster and Sheffield, which provides excellent connections to everywwhere south of a line from Hull to Liverpool, with an extra stopper per hour to Hull. Not bad for a town of around 35000 residents. Most of the route to Doncaster is 70mph+ and without major work journey times are not going to improve, missing out Hull would save 15 mins or so, but a lot of journeys start and finish in Hull, the only time missing Hull could be justified would be 'seaside' trains during summer weekends, and its probably not worth the hassle.

The real problem with Bridlington is access to places North of the Hull Liverpool axis, either a roundabout journey to York via Hull, or Brid - Seamer - York, and the Seamer change never seems to work. Nothing can sort this problem, its about the geography, although co-opertion between Northern and TPE over connections at Seamer would help.

I have often wondered if Hull trains would extend their first and last services to Driffield and Bridlington, I am not sure however that any usage would justify it, although it might help develop the business more by having a presence in Driffield and Brid even it is only once a day

 

[RT4038]

Perhaps adding the Selby-Market Weighton-Driffield line to the 'Restoring your Railway' projects would facilitate better links for Bridlington?

 

[Neptune]

I haven't done any research on the matter, but I believe the railway should be there to open up new journey opportunities and that it is better to serve more places with an hourly service rather than overserving certain places and taking up paths which could go elsewhere (ie. sending so many long distance services to Manchester Airport). In this case, the question is does Manchester-York need the frequency it currently has and would it be of greater overall benefit to use one of these paths in the way I suggest? There is talk of the Manchester-Scarborough service being curtailed at York, so this would seem a good candidate to divert to Hull and then onto the Yorkshire Coast.

But if you’ve done no research you can’t assume that the market is there.

The Manchester - York market is huge. Diverting one of resources away to Bridlington reduces the overall benefit.

Do you have something against changing trains at a very good location for such a task as Hull?

 

[mike57]

Perhaps adding the Selby-Market Weighton-Driffield line to the 'Restoring your Railway' projects would facilitate better links for Bridlington?

I dont think the usage would justify it. Other problem is then getting from Selby to York, either ECML = No paths, or the roundabout route via Sherburn-In-Elmet. IF Beverley - York were ever to reopen then may be Driffield - Market Weighton. But it wont happen, there just isnt the population to justify it. Also peoples travel habits tend to be governed by 'easy' journeys, and Brid to York has always been difficult, so therefore there is not the demand.

The Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Scarborough route is governed by the limit on the number of trains per hour through the Leeds - Manchester corridor. The timetable change in 2018 proved that the real figure is lower than the 'paper' figure. Since covid Scarborough - York has mainly been a shuttle, and to be honest its been far more reliable, the problems of this route have been described in other threads.

The only possibility would be extending the Manchester Hull service to Brid as happened in the early 2000s, but to be honest I dont see the point as effectivley you would have the hourly Hull - Brid all stations being run with a transpennine unit, overkill. Its also worth remembering that back in about 2018 there were proposals to cut the through service to Sheffield, and it proved very unpopular to the point where the plans were quickly dropped. Doncaster is probably the main connection for people travelling out of the area.

Brid - Leeds via Hull was part of the Northern Connect proposals I believe, but it seems to have been conveniently forgotten.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I haven't done any research on the matter, but I believe the railway should be there to open up new journey opportunities and that it is better to serve more places with an hourly service rather than overserving certain places and taking up paths which could go elsewhere (ie. sending so many long distance services to Manchester Airport). In this case, the question is does Manchester-York need the frequency it currently has and would it be of greater overall benefit to use one of these paths in the way I suggest? There is talk of the Manchester-Scarborough service being curtailed at York, so this would seem a good candidate to divert to Hull and then onto the Yorkshire Coast.

that could work BUT cutting Cleethorpes services is a bad idea. Its a decently used service pre-COVID i used it regularly and it was always well used and hourly was a good choice. Two-hourly is a dreadful idea as it would discourage use.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think reducing the direct service from Scunthorpe to Sheffield to two-hourly would be sensible.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think reducing the direct service from Scunthorpe to Sheffield to two-hourly would be sensible.

Agreed! Would be quite silly to do

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think reducing the direct service from Scunthorpe to Sheffield to two-hourly would be sensible.

To be fair that wasn't the OP's idea. I think the suggestion was that TPE and Northern would swap eastern destinations in alternate hours so Sheffield to Scunthorpe would still be hourly. However, that doesn't appear particularly workable and it doesn't add anything for connectivity as Stockport and Manchester via Sheffield is a long way round for anywhere North East of Doncaster.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair that wasn't the OP's idea. I think the suggestion was that TPE and Northern would swap eastern destinations in alternate hours so Sheffield to Scunthorpe would still be hourly. However, that doesn't appear particularly workable and it doesn't add anything for connectivity as Stockport and Manchester via Sheffield is a long way round for anywhere North East of Doncaster.

Oh I see. That wasn't massively clear sorry!

 

[Neptune]

To be fair that wasn't the OP's idea. I think the suggestion was that TPE and Northern would swap eastern destinations in alternate hours so Sheffield to Scunthorpe would still be hourly. However, that doesn't appear particularly workable and it doesn't add anything for connectivity as Stockport and Manchester via Sheffield is a long way round for anywhere North East of Doncaster.

I still don’t see what the problem is changing trains at Hull.

The conclusion of these suggestions appears to mean extra units (from where?) and extra crew (nowhere near as easy as just employing a few more people). Are the additional paths available in each hour? There’s also the issue of extra route and possibly traction training for current crews (again not necessarily a simple task) whilst keeping the current service robust.

Everything suggested is just a massive logistical and costly nightmare for a tenuous and marginal benefit.

 

[tbtc]

My understanding was that the Arriva plans for Northern included an hourly Leeds - Hull - Bridlington service (correct me if I'm wrong) - that became a York - Hull - Bridlington service though

Leeds is clearly a big market - whilst I like having the direct Sheffield - Bridlington services, I'd guess that the people of Bridlington would rather have a direct service to Leeds than to Sheffield (or to York!)

So an extension of the Halifax - Leeds - Hull service sounds worth considering - however at the moment the paths wouldn't match up (and there's not scope to flex the Halifax side of the service given the need to co-ordinate with the other services through Bradford Interchange)

No need to change the Sheffield - Cleethorpes service though - Cleethorpes is where Sheffielders tend to go for a beach more than other seaside towns!

 

[Philip]

My understanding was that the Arriva plans for Northern included an hourly Leeds - Hull - Bridlington service (correct me if I'm wrong) - that became a York - Hull - Bridlington service though

Leeds is clearly a big market - whilst I like having the direct Sheffield - Bridlington services, I'd guess that the people of Bridlington would rather have a direct service to Leeds than to Sheffield (or to York!)

So an extension of the Halifax - Leeds - Hull service sounds worth considering - however at the moment the paths wouldn't match up (and there's not scope to flex the Halifax side of the service given the need to co-ordinate with the other services through Bradford Interchange)

No need to change the Sheffield - Cleethorpes service though - Cleethorpes is where Sheffielders tend to go for a beach more than other seaside towns!

That's interesting, I always thought Bridlington has been the go-to place for Sheffielders over the 50 years or so, in a similar way Blackpool has been for Manchester people?

 

[RT4038]

That's interesting, I always thought Bridlington has been the go-to place for Sheffielders over the 50 years or so, in a similar way Blackpool has been for Manchester people?

Surely Leeds people to Bridlington and Sheffield to Cleethorpes!

 

[Neptune]

Surely Leeds people to Bridlington and Sheffield to Cleethorpes!

Leeds is generally Scarborough.

 

[mike57]

Leeds is clearly a big market - whilst I like having the direct Sheffield - Bridlington services, I'd guess that the people of Bridlington would rather have a direct service to Leeds than to Sheffield (or to York!)

I dont think the people of Brid would swap their direct Sheffield service to one to Leeds, the last time it was suggested a couple of years ago there was a lot of complaints. The important connection on the Sheffield service is Doncaster, as London, Birmingham & West Country all need a change there, and for those destinations Leeds would be a long way round. Currently for Leeds you change in Hull, for Manchester you would still have to change in either Leeds or Hull, and most people would choose Hull, easier change, and on at the start of the service if you dont have seats booked.