Should Elizabeth line take over the Thames Valley branches and also Romford - Upminster branch?

[Benjwri]

FWIW I think the current pattern (Hayes and Ealing only) is quite a good compromise between keeping the service fairly fast and maintaining connectivity with Greater London stations.

Your mention of Hayes has actually reminded me of a very important use of those stoppers, as getting them to Hayes and then swapping to Elizabeth line is currently the quickest way of getting to Heathrow, and is quite an important link. Will make the quickest way a train all the way to Paddington, then back out again, quite majorly extending a fairly vital link, and making it far more expensive. Obviously GWR probably don’t care as they want people taking the Heathrow Express.

The second tph from Didcot could then terminate at Reading, in lieu of the Newbury slow.

Not sure whether the pathing would permit this to occur in practice, though.

An interesting idea, in theory could work, the current times are close enough that they could probably fit it in without moving anything else, obviously just need access rights

Could Crossrail run an even-interval 15 min service from Reading all day?

That is the obvious solution, although unfortunately they apparently don’t have enough trains to manage it.

 

[cle]

Your mention of Hayes has actually reminded me of a very important use of those stoppers, as getting them to Hayes and then swapping to Elizabeth line is currently the quickest way of getting to Heathrow, and is quite an important link. Will make the quickest way a train all the way to Paddington, then back out again, quite majorly extending a fairly vital link, and making it far more expensive. Obviously GWR probably don’t care as they want people taking the Heathrow Express.

An interesting idea, in theory could work, the current times are close enough that they could probably fit it in without moving anything else, obviously just need access rights

That is the obvious solution, although unfortunately they apparently don’t have enough trains to manage it.

I don't think GWR want people on HEx especially. Surely the opposite. But I don't think the 'Hayes for Heathrow' patterns are quite in the zeitgeist yet - also have you seen LHR/BA recently? Travel is a ****-show. But give it time to bed in, post-Lizzie.

The one issue with that Newbury/Didcot thing might be the need for a short dwell at Reading, whereas the Newbury side has the bays. Also it could be an EMU, so what? A four car 387? It wouldn't need to be long. Still useful, as would feed into fasts into Paddington and of course, every other direction. The other upcoming semi-fast service would eventually stop at OOC and you could switch to Crossrail there.

 

[Benjwri]

I don't think GWR want people on HEx especially.

Why not? GWR run the HEx, I'm sure they get some kind of kick back from more people using it.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Been a bit of a long thread so I haven't put anything in, but I think "Elizabeth Connect" or something and suitable traction solutions is a great idea. Notably for Henley, Marlow, Windsor and Greenford. And, of course, Romford to Upminster.

Not sure what traction you would use, but if VivaRail could finally get suitable range to get something from West Ealing Depot or what have you through to the likes of Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough to then get onto fast chargers and keep going for the rest of the day thereafter. Marlow is a pain, as it is too difficult to run in one at peak time. No idea what you do there...

 

[JonathanH]

Marlow is a pain, as it is too difficult to run in one at peak time. No idea what you do there...

Fit the charging devices at Bourne End?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Fit the charging devices at Bourne End?

Agreed, I was just thinking more of how labour intensive it is for an extremely small return.

 

[Basil Jet]

Been a bit of a long thread so I haven't put anything in, but I think "Elizabeth Connect" or something and suitable traction solutions is a great idea. Notably for Henley, Marlow, Windsor and Greenford. And, of course, Romford to Upminster.

I think the western branches are mostly timed to connect with the faster GWR services rather than the slower Elizabeth Line, and I'm sure the locals would rather that continued, so calling them Elizabeth Connect makes no sense.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think the western branches are mostly timed to connect with the faster GWR services rather than the slower Elizabeth Line, and I'm sure the locals would rather that continued, so calling them Elizabeth Connect makes no sense.

Well that’s not technically correct. There is nothing stopping them being cost-centred and resourced by MTR and being run as a concession of such.

We know it’s not possible that Windsor services can connect as they run every 20 minutes, and the fast services are every 30. The same can be said for West Ealing.

As for Bourne End and Henley, there’s nothing to say that they wouldn’t simultaneously connect to a fast, as the quarter-hourly Crossrail service would thus be close as well.

You have been quite obtuse in your methodology. The key thing is marketing: it is an Elizabeth Line connection. The avoidance of the walk across Paddington and the subsequent keeping of a seat from Maidenhead to Canary Wharf means for some, the Elizabeth line will be the train of the choice throughout.

 

[London Trains]

Wouldn't it just make more sense to run 6tph all the way to Reading, calling all stations apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

This would fit to form a perfect clockface in the central section when there is 24tph with trains alternating:

Reading (all stations apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell)
Paddington (eventually OOC)
Heathrow (all stations)
Paddington (eventually OOC)

Then remove all GWR stops inwards of Maidenhead (Didcots would still call Maidenhead and Twyford), and then electrify and transfer the Greenford and Windsor branches to TfL.

Marlow and Henley could be transferred too, but would equally make sense for GWR to retain (with connections to their services) and are likely too far out of London for TfL to be willing to run them.

 

[SynthD]

No, for reasons given before. A quick summary: freight paths on the reliefs, short platforms and lack of electrification on the branches.

 

[Basil Jet]

Wouldn't it just make more sense to run 6tph all the way to Reading, calling all stations apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

This would fit to form a perfect clockface in the central section when there is 24tph with trains alternating:

Reading (all stations apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell)
Paddington (eventually OOC)
Heathrow (all stations)
Paddington (eventually OOC)

Then remove all GWR stops inwards of Maidenhead (Didcots would still call Maidenhead and Twyford), and then electrify and transfer the Greenford and Windsor branches to TfL.

Marlow and Henley could be transferred too, but would equally make sense for GWR to retain (with connections to their services) and are likely too far out of London for TfL to be willing to run them.

Your trains to Reading would catch up with your trains to Heathrow.
If there were no freight then

Shenfield-Reading (skipping AML, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall)
Abbey Wood - Heathrow
Shenfield - OOC
Abbey Wood - OOC

would work better.

 

[JonathanH]

Your trains to Reading would catch up with your trains to Heathrow.
If there were no freight then

Shenfield-Reading (skipping AML, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall)
Abbey Wood - Heathrow
Shenfield - OOC
Abbey Wood - OOC

would work better.

For exactly the point you raise about trains catching up each other,

Abbey Wood - Reading (skipping AML, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall)
Abbey Wood - Heathrow
Shenfield - OOC

works better, as there is a natural gap between trains from Abbey Wood.

 

[Falcon1200]

Wouldn't it just make more sense to run 6tph all the way to Reading, calling all stations apart from Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

Only if there is demand for that level of service (which I doubt), plus as already mentioned track capacity, and sufficient sets and traincrew.

And given that the branches, all of them, are as different from the Elizabeth Line operations as they could possibly be, there is no logic in transferring them from GWR; Although I do agree they should, all, be electrified, although suitable stock would be an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, for reasons given before. A quick summary: freight paths on the reliefs, short platforms and lack of electrification on the branches.

yes but other than that….

 

[Benjwri]

yes but other than that….

Is there much point? If Great British Railways ever does materialise the branding will be the same anyways, beyond that surely it makes no difference? Since the rolling stock would be different, and Henley at least is timed better for Liz Line trains anyways.

 

[43096]

Then remove all GWR stops inwards of Maidenhead (Didcots would still call Maidenhead and Twyford), and then electrify and transfer the Greenford and Windsor branches to TfL.

Marlow and Henley could be transferred too, but would equally make sense for GWR to retain (with connections to their services) and are likely too far out of London for TfL to be willing to run them.

So what are you running the branches with after electrification, because 345s are way too long for all those routes. If the answer is 4-car EMUs, then you're better leaving them with GWR as they already have 4-car EMUs and the facilities to maintain them.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Only if there is demand for that level of service (which I doubt), plus as already mentioned track capacity, and sufficient sets and traincrew.

And given that the branches, all of them, are as different from the Elizabeth Line operations as they could possibly be, there is no logic in transferring them from GWR; Although I do agree they should, all, be electrified, although suitable stock would be an issue.

I know a few people have said this but as a daily commuter with gwr, we do not want Elizabeth line and their slow awful trains taking over any more services

 

[AlastairFraser]

Replying to the thread title, Tfl should absolutely not take over the branches.

There is a strong argument that they are suited to a different form of rolling stock (e.g tram-train, Class 230), allowing most of those remaining Turbos to head out to the West Country and displace some 150s to the tin can factory, but the short platforms and conflicting moves on all the branch line main line junctions would make any sort of improved through service hell to plan if they were transferred to Liz Line.

You could transfer the operations to TfL if you wanted, for a very slim discernable benefit in marketing, but the best thing to do is to order battery 230s if the Greenford line trial is successful, install fast chargers at both termini. It could even save a unit on one of the more frequent branches compared to /increase service frequency ,due to the faster turnaround. These could also be used on the Brentford branch line planned for reopening with minimal effort given another forum user mentioning a proximate Vivarail depot in Ealing and the limited infrastructure works needed to reopen (e.g. fast chargers and maybe a small on platform stabling shed at each end.)
This would obviously change if the Windsor link ever goes ahead (the tunnel proposal linking the 2 stations, presumably they would then transfer to Waterloo)/Bourne End to High Wycombe is reopened (extend the XR Maidenhead terminators though to HW, shuttle for Marlow from Bourne End although platform extensions may be difficult there) and Greenford/potential Brentford branch electrification (transfer to LO), but you reassess services at that point.

The discussion about extending XR to Didcot is a little absurd, those stations beyond Reading towards Oxford do not warrant a metro style service. When the Oxford line is redeveloped and electrified, 387 service can be extended to Oxford and then we can reassess the semi fast patterns. Presumably, at that point, the 5 car IET can be released to bolster services on non/partially-electrifed lines and 2 387s can be used to increase capacity on the semi fast.
But that's long in the future.