Should EMR have obtained alternative trains to the ex-LNER HSTs?

[InTheEastMids]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-hst-withdrawals.193339/

Thoughts and prayers for the EMR Marketing Department, searching - as we speak - to find a big "good news" story in the replacement of knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains with slightly less knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains...

 

[coradiafan2000]

Thoughts and prayers for the EMR Marketing Department, searching - as we speak - to find a big "good news" story in the replacement of knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains with slightly less knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains...

And yet ScotRail have replaced newer greener multiple units with said slam door diesel trains, yet people seem to be excited and happy about it (as far as I can tell anyway). Granted from a passenger's point of view it's a more significant change than from an EMR HST to an LNER HST.

 

[PG]

Aye that lesser spotted species - the refurbished Scotrail HST... rarer than hens teeth!

 

[yorksrob]

Thoughts and prayers for the EMR Marketing Department, searching - as we speak - to find a big "good news" story in the replacement of knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains with slightly less knackered 40-year old non-compliant polluting slam-door diesel trains...

I suppose the good news is that the franchise will have enough full length trains to run the service until the new trains arrive, rather than passengers being plunged into a two-year nightmare of short forms, overcrowding and relying on 180's.

Passengers should consider it a lucky escape.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I suppose the good news is that the franchise will have enough full length trains to run the service until the new trains arrive, rather than passengers being plunged into a two-year nightmare of short forms, overcrowding and relying on 180's.

Passengers should consider it a lucky escape.

They shouldn’t be taking 180s at all, but no doubt I’m wrong of course.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They shouldn’t be taking 180s at all, but no doubt I’m wrong of course.

The 4 class 180 from Hull Trains are still going to EMR.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The 4 class 180 from Hull Trains are still going to EMR.

Apologies for the ambiguity - I meant I thought it wasn’t a good decision.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I honestly think 180s get a worse reputation than they deserve (similar to Voyagers). Hull Trains' 180s have reliabilty issues, yet Grand Central's examples seem to be competent at their jobs, which says more about Hull Trains than the 180s themselves. Them being introduced to the Midland Mainline will be a suitable stopgap (assuming they're maintained properly) until new trains are procured. The Midland Mainline has had four and five coach services for some time now and has just about coped, I'm sure they can cope for a couple more years, especially with longer ex LNER HSTs and the potential for 180s to double up.

 

[greatvoyager]

I honestly think 180s get a worse reputation than they deserve (similar to Voyagers). Hull Trains' 180s have reliabilty issues, yet Grand Central's examples seem to be competent at their jobs, which says more about Hull Trains than the 180s themselves. Them being introduced to the Midland Mainline will be a suitable stopgap (assuming they're maintained properly) until new trains are procured. The Midland Mainline has had four and five coach services for some time now and has just about coped, I'm sure they can cope for a couple more years, especially with longer ex LNER HSTs and the potential for 180s to double up.

As you say, seeing how Grand Central are able to keep their fleet reliable, I assume it must be simple enough to bring the rest of the 180s up to standard.
Also, what other 125mph trains other than HSTs are available for EMR to obtain at the moment?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yet ScotRail have replaced newer greener multiple units with said slam door diesel trains, yet people seem to be excited and happy about it (as far as I can tell anyway). Granted from a passenger's point of view it's a more significant change than from an EMR HST to an LNER HST.

I bet they'd have preferred Mk5s or even 80x. They might actually show up once in a while.

Of course for EMR it's just a short term stopgap.

 

[coradiafan2000]

As you say, seeing how Grand Central are able to keep their fleet reliable, I assume it must be simple enough to bring the rest of the 180s up to standard.
Also, what other 125mph trains other than HSTs are available for EMR to obtain at the moment?

Exactly. Obviously the 222s will be staying for the time being, and the Voyagers are needed for XC/ Virgin. 180s are the only high speed Diesel units that are available apart from the HSTs.

 

[greatvoyager]

Exactly. Obviously the 222s will be staying for the time being, and the Voyagers are needed for XC/ Virgin. 180s are the only high speed Diesel units that are available apart from the HSTs.

That's the problem, the need for compliant and accessible rolling stock outweighs the amount available.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I bet they'd have preferred Mk5s or even 80x. They might actually show up once in a while.

Of course for EMR it's just a short term stopgap.

Of course, but the fact that they're having to do this stop gap, should be a much bigger scandal. And to be honest I think a lot of people are quietly comfortable with the fact that nobody's really been called to account for this, especially within DfT who are central to this abject, industry-wide failure around PRM compliance

 

[edwin_m]

Of course, but the fact that they're having to do this stop gap, should be a much bigger scandal. And to be honest I think a lot of people are quietly comfortable with the fact that nobody's really been called to account for this, especially within DfT who are central to this abject, industry-wide failure around PRM compliance

The other side of the coin is that the electrification was supposed to have got rid of the HSTs by now, but is late and part cancelled.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The other side of the coin is that the electrification was supposed to have got rid of the HSTs by now, but is late and part cancelled.

That's exactly my point. The reason EMR need to keep using non compliant stick until 2023-ish is that Grayling was happy to cancel the electrification but unhappy to assume accountability for the hole in the rolling stock plan this created. DfT twiddled their thumbs for 2 years and we are where we are.

Of course this was all Network Rails fault for not deliveringg electrification, but that was DfT's fault for the boom and bust cycle of investment...

Basically a shambles

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but the fact that they're having to do this stop gap, should be a much bigger scandal. And to be honest I think a lot of people are quietly comfortable with the fact that nobody's really been called to account for this, especially within DfT who are central to this abject, industry-wide failure around PRM compliance

As long as progress is being made at a reasonable rate, which it is, I wouldn't get hung up on specific deadlines.

 

[Killingworth]

That's exactly my point. The reason EMR need to keep using non compliant stick until 2023-ish is that Grayling was happy to cancel the electrification but unhappy to assume accountability for the hole in the rolling stock plan this created. DfT twiddled their thumbs for 2 years and we are where we are.

Of course this was all Network Rails fault for not deliveringg electrification, but that was DfT's fault for the boom and bust cycle of investment...

Basically a shambles

It's a shambles but it would still have been a shambles if electrification to Sheffield and Nottingham had been authorised because Network Rail and their contractors wouldn't have delivered a completed scheme much before 2030. We'd still have had to rely on diesel powered rolling stock until that unknown date. By granting short term extensions to carry on EMTs franchise there was no incentive to order new rolling stock. it was like pushing water up hill. Bi-modes are the only practical answer for the next 10-20 years, after which the diesel capability might be removed.

 

[InTheEastMids]

As long as progress is being made at a reasonable rate, which it is, I wouldn't get hung up on specific deadlines.

That seems like a rather complacent attitude, given some of the experiences of people who need PRM compliant trains to travel easily.
"Hey, we'll just treat them like second class citizens for a few more years, because despite having failed to do this in the last decade, progress is being made, so let's not get hung up about this"

 

[InTheEastMids]

It's a shambles but it would still have been a shambles if electrification to Sheffield and Nottingham had been authorised because Network Rail and their contractors wouldn't have delivered a completed scheme much before 2030. We'd still have had to rely on diesel powered rolling stock until that unknown date. By granting short term extensions to carry on EMTs franchise there was no incentive to order new rolling stock. it was like pushing water up hill. Bi-modes are the only practical answer for the next 10-20 years, after which the diesel capability might be removed.

Exactly. A whole system failure, with every player in a position to, with some justification, point the finger at somebody else. That's what I mean by a lack of accountability

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seems like a rather complacent attitude, given some of the experiences of people who need PRM compliant trains to travel easily.

In what manner aren't the ex-EC HSTs compliant? It's just doors, isn't it? Staff assistance can substitute.

 

[coradiafan2000]

In what manner aren't the ex-EC HSTs compliant? It's just doors, isn't it? Staff assistance can substitute.

I wonder if EMR will bother fitting automatic doors to the ex LNER Mk3s? I'm doubtful as they'll only have them for two years (in theory anyway), but it will make them more compliant.

 

[edwin_m]

Judging by the time it's taken to fit power doors to the other HST fleets, the new 80x units would be ready before EMR could get any HSTs so fitted.

I don't think power doors are necessary for accessibility as long as there are enough staff to provide assistance to those who can't use them unaided. Normally other passengers do this anyway, but in any case extra platform staff are needed to close the doors. The other major and costly accessibility feature is a wheelchair-accessible toilet, where EMT have an early version but perhaps the East Coast ones are closer to the standard? There are then things like information systems which are relatively easy to fit. Retention toilets, while not actually an accessibility feature, seem to have been tied to the same deadline too - I don't think East Coast HSTs have those.

 

[43096]

That's exactly my point. The reason EMR need to keep using non compliant stick until 2023-ish is that Grayling was happy to cancel the electrification but unhappy to assume accountability for the hole in the rolling stock plan this created. DfT twiddled their thumbs for 2 years and we are where we are.

Of course this was all Network Rails fault for not deliveringg electrification, but that was DfT's fault for the boom and bust cycle of investment...

Basically a shambles

2023? The HSTs leave EMR at the end of 2020, once the Corby electrification is operational. That’s the plan, anyway.

 

[43096]

Judging by the time it's taken to fit power doors to the other HST fleets, the new 80x units would be ready before EMR could get any HSTs so fitted.

I don't think power doors are necessary for accessibility as long as there are enough staff to provide assistance to those who can't use them unaided. Normally other passengers do this anyway, but in any case extra platform staff are needed to close the doors. The other major and costly accessibility feature is a wheelchair-accessible toilet, where EMT have an early version but perhaps the East Coast ones are closer to the standard? There are then things like information systems which are relatively easy to fit. Retention toilets, while not actually an accessibility feature, seem to have been tied to the same deadline too - I don't think East Coast HSTs have those.

Information systems are being fitted to the sets transferring currently. Being done at Craigentinny.

 

[duffield]

EMR seem to have quite a lot of on train/platform staff helping with the slam doors already for every station that the HSTs stop at (personally I find it slightly annoying because I enjoy opening/closing slam doors myself especially since they'll be pretty much gone from the national network, but I know that's just me and accept it with a smile anyhow!).
Anyhow, as a result I really don't think it's an important issue from the PRM point of view if there are slam doors for another year or two, particularly given that wheelchair users will need ramp assistance anyhow even if the doors were converted.
I'd say accessible toilets are a more important issue.

 

[30907]

I'd say accessible toilets are a more important issue.

Of which the EC sets have one each.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think power doors are necessary for accessibility as long as there are enough staff to provide assistance to those who can't use them unaided.

Will it not be illegal for passengers to operate the doors themselves from 1 January 2020?

 

[edwin_m]

Will it not be illegal for passengers to operate the doors themselves from 1 January 2020?

Seems unlikely to me - do you have a source for that? Unless they provide at least 8 staff on each platform (one to open and close the doors on each adjacent pair of coach ends) that will really hit dwell times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will it not be illegal for passengers to operate the doors themselves from 1 January 2020?

No. Why would it be?

What would be illegal would be not providing adequate staffing and procedures so those who can't awkwardly lean out of the window to open the door can board/alight.

 

[thenorthern]

Essentially they needed trains to run services and thats what they got. Would EMR prefer newer trains? of course they would but there were none available.

Its not just the HSTs coming to the EMR Intercity services the Class 170s that are returning to the East Midlands after they were taken away in 2007 will be approaching 20-25 years old when they are finally introduced so aren't really "new trains". The Class 360s as well will be approaching 20 years old when they are introduced.

One thing to remember though is the government hates the East Midlands.