Should franchises keep the same branding?

[HSTEd]

If anything you should only rebrand after it's fixed in that case.

Becuase otherwise you just poison the new brand when nothing is fixed on day 1.

 

[Andyh82]

If anything you should only rebrand after it's fixed in that case.

Becuase otherwise you just poison the new brand when nothing is fixed on day 1.

That is why none of the pacers and no unrefurbished stock ever received the new Northern livery or brand name.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Without going off topic, Northern will also have to slightly rebrand and remove anything with 'Arriva' on it by next month.

I shouldn't think this would be a major issue as Northern are still retaining their name and alot of their older fleet still has the previous corporate designs of mainly purple from when they have been under previous operators. The new trains will still remain the same - however they'll simply have to peel the Arriva badges off the body work!

The staff uniforms will have to change as all the front line staff wear the company logo which is 'Northern by Arriva'. From a personal point of view I don't think this is a bad thing as I think the Northern uniforms at present look a little bit tacky.

CJ

 

[js1000]

Without going off topic, Northern will also have to slightly rebrand and remove anything with 'Arriva' on it by next month.

I shouldn't think this would be a major issue as Northern are still retaining their name and alot of their older fleet still has the previous corporate designs of mainly purple from when they have been under previous operators. The new trains will still remain the same - however they'll simply have to peel the Arriva badges off the body work!

The staff uniforms will have to change as all the front line staff wear the company logo which is 'Northern by Arriva'. From a personal point of view I don't think this is a bad thing as I think the Northern uniforms at present look a little bit tacky.

CJ

I appreciate that the timetable and rolling stock issues are a medium to long term element to resolve that is going to take at least a year - probably 2-3 years to fully resolve. But some things that can and need to change in the short term:

- Cleaning staff at Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport and Leeds to quickly clear rubbish at the end of journeys. The previous franchise had cleaning staff but they don't exist anymore due to penny pinching at Arriva. The state of the some of the trains in the evening can only be described as absolutely inexcusable. The new trains will be lucky to last 3 years let alone 30 at this rate.

- Uniforms that are actually smart and not tatty or cheap-looking. Polo shirts (too often accompanied by a good beer belly) have no place on a train operating company. Northern's old purple colour was horrid but at least the staff had the option of a proper shirt and waistcoat.

The DfT, Network Rail and Transport for the North are not blameless - but Arriva have run the everyday operations of the franchise into the ground.

 

[C J Snarzell]

From my personal point of view - wearing a decent uniform goes a long way. It doesn't matter about the person's own appearance - a lady conductor on a XC I used recently was covered in tattoo's and had a couple of facial piercings but her uniform looked really professional and cool.

The Northern uniform just looks untidy and the polo shirts look like the cheap clobber you can buy in Primark for £2 each.

The cleanliness of the trains is another issue for the operator taking over Northern in March. Alot of other TOCs actually have the on board staff coming up and down the carriages with bin bags to collect people's rubbish during journey time. Sadly, Northern don't have this and what you get is a brand spanking new train littered with empty drinking cups and copies of Metro lying everywhere!!!

CJ

 

[RealTrains07]

Virgin West Coast obviously had to be rebranded, as did VTEC. The majority of TOCs around now will most probably transfer brands to the next franchise holder. With TfW, WMT, LNER and EMR (and SER if the competition hadn't been cancelled) this is explicitly stated, joining Merseyrail and Scotrail, and is more than likely with GWR, SWR and Northern.

Regarding branding, never underestimate the Power of the Brand, but of course there are powerful ones and completely useless ones. In the former category I'd put InterCity.

WMR will never be franchised again. Its a special case similar to TfW. However unlike TfW. WMR is going to be in full control of the local authority which is why the brand is staying the same.

Same does apply to TfW however its only part influenced by the welsh government. It will still be franchised.

LNER I thought the case would be that it would be re franchised sooner which is why the livery on the azumas is very basic?

Same cant be said for LNR however as its either going to be re franchised on its own or it’s incorporated into the WCP

Its a poor cheap decision by the government to keep the brands. Keep the name. Just change the brands.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Good point about the Northern uniforms. Some of the platform staff at Piccadilly and Oxford Road look like they sleep rough! "Fits where it touches" is a compliment. I've got better fitting pyjamas.

................... and when did it become acceptable to not bother shaving for days on end, makes you wonder if some bother bathing too?

Contrast that with continental (German / Swiss) staff, usually immaculate and therefore easy to spot. They also ALWAYS have a proper ticket validation stamp, not a grotty Biro.

 

[CM]

Good point about the Northern uniforms. Some of the platform staff at Piccadilly and Oxford Road look like they sleep rough! "Fits where it touches" is a compliment. I've got better fitting pyjamas.

................... and when did it become acceptable to not bother shaving for days on end, makes you wonder if some bother bathing too?

Contrast that with continental (German / Swiss) staff, usually immaculate and therefore easy to spot. They also ALWAYS have a proper ticket validation stamp, not a grotty Biro.

If the TOC doesn't issue staff with a validation stamp then how can they use one? Also, the same applies to uniforms, if the TOC supplies them with a uniform that doesn't fit properly then you can hardly blame the staff. My place of work supplies us with clothing to wear and at first, it fits perfectly but once it's been washed a few times it's been known to shrink and the colour fades yet my employer won't switch supplier and getting new items is like getting blood out of a stone. Perhaps you should think of things like that before making "grotty" statements about the appearance of people you probably don't even know!

 

[357 LTSRail]

When it comes to rebranding, a TOC could do what Abellio did with Greater Anglia and simply not bother rebranding anything (unless stipulated in franchise agreement). Almost all the 321s and the many of the 317s are still in National Express East Anglia livery from 8 years ago. All the 360s are still in First Great Eastern livery, from 16 years ago! Most stations signs are also from National Express too. Anglia highlights why rebranding is necessary after a point, as Anglia looks from a customer view to be deteriorating. Trains look very tired, and stations a mismatch mess.

 

[Energy]

I think it really depends, rebranding fully is fine when it is needed but every couple years? Maybe a vinyl livery but not much more.

 

[Mathew S]

Uniforms that are actually smart and not tatty or cheap-looking. Polo shirts (too often accompanied by a good beer belly) have no place on a train operating company. Northern's old purple colour was horrid but at least the staff had the option of a proper shirt and waistcoat.

What on earth? It's 2020 for pity's sake, why the heck would anyone expect someone to wear a waistcoat in a job like working on the railway?
Yes, there are some staff at Northern who would benefit from taking rather more pride in their appearance. But, the uniform needs to be practical, visible, and comfortable.

Waistcosts, good lord... perhaps they should stock up on gas lanterns and brasso at the same time

 

[RealTrains07]

All the 360s are still in First Great Eastern livery, from 16 years ago

Almost. The livery was slightly re done after national express took over. Since then no change has been made.

Every franchise is different in how things are handled.

Only difference here is Avanti is only the second operator of the WC franchise now WCP. Why waste time comparing them when they are completely different in how they operate?

 

[C J Snarzell]

I agree that in 2020, we need to be modern and practical with our work place appearances.

A pair of black combat trousers with a pressed seam and comfortable fit down the leg can still look smart. I am an ex-cop and I hated combats when they were first introduced but I slowly came round to the idea of wearing them. However, I never liked the black cycling tops - a traditional white shirt and tie represents the imagine of a professional police officer and I just think the police uniform is not the same without it. It still appalls me that I see PCSOs walking about with their jackets wide open, carrying their hats in public.

Train staff should be just as professional in their appearance as they represent a service and organisation. I just think that Northern's uniform doesn't look that great - while other TOCs seem to be well turned out with nice shirts and jackets.

CJ

 

[357 LTSRail]

Almost. The livery was slightly re done after national express took over. Since then no change has been made.

Every franchise is different in how things are handled.

Only difference here is Avanti is only the second operator of the WC franchise now WCP. Why waste time comparing them when they are completely different in how they operate?

I'm just trying to illustrate a case of a new franchisee not really bothering to rebrand other than removing NXEA and FGE vinyls and logos, and one who overnight rebranded almost every aspect of stations with clear plans for the stock. I hear people comment frequently on the faded and mismatching colour schemes and branding on the Greater Anglia network, that give the company a careless, lacklustre image that has made its user base very sceptical of anything it does. I sense a now deep reputation for poor services from Greater Anglia, shown by the amount of condescending remarks about their new rolling stock.. Whether or not Avanti have held up to it, many commented on how quickly First/Trenitalia carried out their rebranding which already gave a perception of a well run company with an eye for detail. This was not the response Abellio had and subsequently set the tone for their quality of services.

 

[Merle Haggard]

On the contrary, since the 390s have been in plain white I've had people ask me on the platform at Coventry if the white Pendolino approaching is Avanti/Virgin or LNWR.

Interesting - but here's a thought, not trying to be dogmatic.

In effect, and I know that it's by default, plain white IS the branding of Avanti - all bar 2 (?) of the Pendos. carry it.
Virgin's branding included wide use of the image of the the front view of a Pendo. (timetables, publicity, even the children's books given away on-train and Tilting Cider).

So if passengers can't recognise an approaching all-over white Pendo as being Avanti/West Coast perhaps the branding effort can be said to have failed.

I realise that overall white is the lazy livery of refurbished 350s, but there's not (usually) more than one white 4 car set in a train, and their fronts are not streamlined.

 

[Aictos]

From my personal point of view - wearing a decent uniform goes a long way. It doesn't matter about the person's own appearance - a lady conductor on a XC I used recently was covered in tattoo's and had a couple of facial piercings but her uniform looked really professional and cool.

The Northern uniform just looks untidy and the polo shirts look like the cheap clobber you can buy in Primark for £2 each.

The cleanliness of the trains is another issue for the operator taking over Northern in March. Alot of other TOCs actually have the on board staff coming up and down the carriages with bin bags to collect people's rubbish during journey time. Sadly, Northern don't have this and what you get is a brand spanking new train littered with empty drinking cups and copies of Metro lying everywhere!!!

CJ

With regards to the Metros, there is a simple way of reducing their waste by being left everywhere making the trains look messy and that’s introducing a charge for them.

Charge the same as the Nationals and people will still get them but there won’t be as many making the trains look untidy and push Metro to pay for recycling.

 

[RealTrains07]

I realise that overall white is the lazy livery of refurbished 350s, but there's not (usually) more than one white 4 car set in a train, and their fronts are not streamlined.

Its not lazy, they require more work hence why they are white like the pendos.

Interesting though that that sort of confusion exists. The pendos are gonna take a lot of work and time to be fully re done you wonder why its gonna take till 2023 to refurbish all of them

At least by the time they are done they will be far more refreshed.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Its not lazy, they require more work hence why they are white like the pendos.

My mistake; I thought that they were repainted white when all the work affecting the exterior (corrosion repair) was complete.

This evening I got off one such train, and here's a photo of the composite -




You will see that there is absolutely nothing on the exterior to indicate the location of the first class and it doesn't even carry a coach number. The all-white ones have been like it for a while. Perhaps 'lazy' is too loose a term, but it was short-hand.

 

[tbtc]

Except that if you don't repaint the previous holder's corporate colours you will be giving them free advertising indefinitely.
Indeed this could be used to distort the franchising system because it gives the incumbents a significant advantage.

You're fond of dismissing inconveniently minor numbers as a "rounding error"... but you honestly think that the cost of repainting trains (over say a seven year franchise, bearing in mind that any cascaded or new trains will have to be repainted anyway) is going to make a "significant" advantage to one bidder over another?

There's no reason why the next franchise holder needs to completely change the entire livery - it's up to them if they want to retain the same base colour - e.g. look at how Arriva's XC was pretty much the same as the Virgin XC

It's a lick of paint and a new shirt every seven years - I'm not sure that it's going to break the bank.

(worth noting that Stagecoach are about to repaint all of their buses, just like First and Arriva have brought in new bus liveries in recent years - these companies seem to understand that branding needs to be updated and freshened up every few years - even though there was no "franchise" requirement for them to spend their own money on these paint jobs/vinyls)

What on earth? It's 2020 for pity's sake, why the heck would anyone expect someone to wear a waistcoat in a job like working on the railway?
Yes, there are some staff at Northern who would benefit from taking rather more pride in their appearance. But, the uniform needs to be practical, visible, and comfortable.

Waistcosts, good lord... perhaps they should stock up on gas lanterns and brasso at the same time

True!

If's 2020 - I know that some people have this fixation on Victoriana but I'd rather have rail staff wearing something prominant/visible, probably something fairly "breathable" (given the working conditions, all the walking etc), something durable (in fact, so durable that each shirt can last several franchises, if some of the spendthrifts on here are anything to go by!)

Worth contrasting this thread (and the idea that new shirts every seven years is the reason that ticket prices cost so much) with the "let's spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a brand new Northern fleet even though the existing stock has probably got another decade of life in it" thread. This forum is somewhere that people can believe that a shirt ought to have a longer lifespan than a DMU!

 

[HSTEd]

You're fond of dismissing inconveniently minor numbers as a "rounding error"... but you honestly think that the cost of repainting trains (over say a seven year franchise, bearing in mind that any cascaded or new trains will have to be repainted anyway) is going to make a "significant" advantage to one bidder over another?

If we believe the free meerkat, every change is significant.

Also I am honestly more concerned with corporate branding building up a following which is then used to try and subvert the public interest.
(See Virgin's various tantrums)