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Should Infrastructure Spending be stopped?

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LSWR Cavalier

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And a benefit in this case. Can not see much/any use or benefit from three-lane roads, cars are not allowed to go much faster than trucks anyway so often one could not overtake without exceeding the maximum speed limit
 
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Purple Orange

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Let’s mothball crossrail, Heathrow & Gatwick, shut the central line, bin off the WCML because everybody is going to stay at home forever, never bother meeting anyone new and will never find the need to venture anywhere else other than their bathroom, because as long as they have the Internet, someone else can be paid to do everything else for you.
 

Halifaxlad

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Given the distinct lack of passengers, and uncertainty as the whether or not they will return, should we stop investing in the railways until we know if the passengers that were there before Covid 19 ever come back?
Its a genuinely worrying time for the railway. I came back from Brighton to St Pancras last week on Thameslink, it left Brighton with a handful of people on it at around 16:45. Even more worrying, the 19:02 from St Pancras to Sheffield left with 17 people on it. The railway now seems unsustainable.

Actually the reduction in passenger numbers strengthens the need to invest! With less folk using the railway we need to be reducing unnecessary operating costs!

If we take the Harrogate line for example that still uses signalling equipment from the Steam era, in all they're is about 11 locations on this line that require a trained Signaller. Over two shifts (at least) per day, you need about 22 members of staff who are probably on about 30k a year, that's about £660,000 to operate around 20 miles of track!

Clearly this line should be a prime target to be re-signalled (Harrogate - York) after such schemes are completed then efforts should be made towards electrification, as electric trains are cheaper to run!
 

Bald Rick

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Actually the reduction in passenger numbers strengthens the need to invest! With less folk using the railway we need to be reducing unnecessary operating costs!

If we take the Harrogate line for example that still uses signalling equipment from the Steam era, in all they're is about 11 locations on this line that require a trained Signaller. Over two shifts (at least) per day, you need about 22 members of staff who are probably on about 30k a year, that's about £660,000 to operate around 20 miles of track!

Clearly this line should be a prime target to be re-signalled (Harrogate - York) after such schemes are completed then efforts should be made towards electrification, as electric trains are cheaper to run!

You are way out on operational costs. If there are 11 staffed locations (assuming about half are Gate boxes only), and they are three shift, it will need around 50 people. Total cost will be north of £2m.

However resignalling a line like that will easily cost £50m, probably double that given how many level crossings there are. That’s a big chunk of investment to save not a lot.
 

Railwaysceptic

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You are way out on operational costs. If there are 11 staffed locations (assuming about half are Gate boxes only), and they are three shift, it will need around 50 people. Total cost will be north of £2m.

However resignalling a line like that will easily cost £50m, probably double that given how many level crossings there are. That’s a big chunk of investment to save not a lot.
What would be the signal operating costs after that investment? Presumably not zero, otherwise spending £50 million to save £2 million a year would repay itself within 25 years.
 

Bald Rick

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What would be the signal operating costs after that investment? Presumably not zero, otherwise spending £50 million to save £2 million a year would repay itself within 25 years.

Clearly not zero. And it is a common mistake that saving £2m a year repays a £50m investment. It doesn’t. £2m a year repays £50m after 58 years when using the appropriate discount factors. It never repays £100m.
 

Halifaxlad

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The main point is that it would eventually deliver savings!

Anyway from what I gather this line was to be doubled and re-signalled not that long ago to the tune of £40 million!

This was to include double tracking of 12 miles of line, between Knaresborough and Cattal and Kirk Hammerton and Poppleton so I can't imagine resignalling it would cost £50 million alone!
 

The Planner

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The main point is that it would eventually deliver savings!

Anyway from what I gather this line was to be doubled and re-signalled not that long ago to the tune of £40 million!

This was to include double tracking of 12 miles of line, between Knaresborough and Cattal and Kirk Hammerton and Poppleton so I can't imagine resignalling it would cost £50 million alone!
You are in for a shock then, signalling is the most expensive thing out there.
 

Bald Rick

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The main point is that it would eventually deliver savings!

Anyway from what I gather this line was to be doubled and re-signalled not that long ago to the tune of £40 million!

This was to include double tracking of 12 miles of line, between Knaresborough and Cattal and Kirk Hammerton and Poppleton so I can't imagine resignalling it would cost £50 million alone!

12 miles of redoubling would be well over £100m.
 

The Ham

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Really? I’m an office worker and the vast majority of people I work with want to strike a happy balance. If 1 day a week was the norm before, it will probably be 2 days a week going forward. Many people need to meet clients (often for the first time) and people will still need to show their face in the office too.



Yes wfh will increase compared to before, but I’m not sure about the prevalence of travelling just for a 1 hour meeting was that great before hand either. Video conferencing at work is very common. E.g. 3 or 4 meeting rooms at offices around the country join together for an hour meeting using a reliable connection. Each office may have 3 or 4 people in it, with a couple dialling in from home. However replicating that with 12-16 connections to people’s laptops on their own WiFi lines is not as reliable.

The other side of this argument about reduced travel is also reduced car journeys? I don’t hear much about that, in fact the opposite, which tells me that people are travelling.

WFH 3 days a week is 60% of the time, however that's unlikely to be the average, as there's likely to be a noticeable number who or not to WFH either at all or other than for one off events. A fair chunk of that will be down to those who live alone, or house share with people they can live with but not 24/7, or those who have other reasons why they'd rather be in the office.

Then there's going to be those (trainees, those with a poor work ethic/who aren't as productive at home) who will be required to work on the office.

Chances are a 50% WFH rate for those who can do so is likely to be fairly high, likewise 70% of all jobs being suitable for WFH would likely be fairly high, given that 65% of rail travel is commuting that's a likely fall of 23%. (Feel free to argue why my figures might be too low).

A 20% fall would just roll is back to 2012 passenger numbers, therefore if there was likely to be a need for infrastructure spending for a project in 2012 then chances are we'd need to carry on with the investment.

One thing which is overlooked is that of car use, in that because of the way people travel (80% of miles by car, 10% by rail and 10% by other modes) that small changes from road to rail could see large changes in the number of miles traveled by rail.

Whilst currently people are avoiding using rail, that's unlikely to be the case going forwards. Anyway, even though rail is likely to see people reduce their use of or sure to WFH, the same is also true of private cars.

Probably not in the percentages which rail is likely to see, however even a 2.5% shift from road to rail would then reverse a 20% fall in rail use.

2.5% for someone driving 10,000 miles a year that's 250 miles, whilst it's unlikely that everyone would increase their rail use by that much, it's a small enough figure that 0.5% (rolling back 4%) could be achieved with 1:10 doing 500 miles a year (or any of those 10 doing any number of miles to total those 500 miles).

Even that might be optimistic, however the point still stands that a fairly small shift (0.5%) from road to rail could still result a +4% change in rail use (or any other x8 factor of whatever shift that there is).

Given that the average annual car ownership costs are over £3,000 (yes I know that it's possible to do lower than that, but that's how averages work), if you reduce your annual miles by 5,000 miles (18 miles each way to work, now reduced by WFH 3 days a week) whilst you're costs may fall to £2,500 due to the reduced miles that's still 50p/mile. That's a lot more costly than the 30p/mile than it cost before.
 
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