Should Leeds Bradford Airport have a train station?

[AlastairFraser]

If there is a desire to build a proper airport link why would they bother pushing forward to spend millions on a station which would also probably end up in the way of any junction required for a propper link ?

Possibly because it would have to be a light rail/people mover shuttle anyway as it would be very steep for heavy rail.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Possibly because it would have to be a light rail/people mover shuttle anyway as it would be very steep for heavy rail.

Surely if that was their desire then surely they would bother building this new station as the gradient even for light rail would be significantly gentler from Horsforth. Unless the aspiration was to build somethin akin to a cliffe railway.

 

[Meerkat]

Possibly because it would have to be a light rail/people mover shuttle anyway as it would be very steep for heavy rail.

Would it? Doesnt seem prohibitively steep if you take the right route.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I believe it was reported a while ago that any new station would be served by LNER so the likely hood of Horsforth loosing its direct service to Leeds is high. Capacity upon Northern services isnt great at the best of times. Horsforth loosing services will only exaberate this problem. It might not be as bad if services were lengthened back to 4 car although I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Im not sure how much of an impact it will have on existing services although when Kirkstall Forge opened I believe it added about another 2 miniutes to the overall journey between Leeds & Shipley. Building stations so close to one another shouldnt be allowed.

 

[Zomboid]

If Glasgow can't support a rail link then I don't think LBA is going to.
If a railway went right past the terminal, Southampton or Gatwick style, then it might be worth building a station.

Just from looking at the map, wouldn't Guiseley be the station to run a connecting bus from? More journey options (including Bradford) from there, rather than the Leeds - Harrogate line.

 

[zwk500]

Surely if that was their desire then surely they would bother building this new station as the gradient even for light rail would be significantly gentler from Horsforth. Unless the aspiration was to build somethin akin to a cliffe railway.

The vertical distance from Google Map's contours between Horsforth and LBA seems to be about 75m (see terrain view). A light rail link can handle much steeper gradients than a conventional rail link, and also doesn't get in to the weeds of what services etc.
To keep the gradient reasonable any mainline station is likely to need to be reasonably deep underground - not impossible to construct, but rather expensive and also then extends journey times for passengers with large amounts of luggage to get up to the airport terminal itself.

For comparison:
Heathrow - 83m passengers a year - Dedicated branches for dedicated express, EL and LU, 2x coach links to other stations
Gatwick - 40m passengers a year - direct mainline station, advertised express (although not exclusively airport now, I think).
Manchester - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated tram service.
Stansted - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated express link.
Luton - 16m passengers a year - dedicated parkway station + shuttle to terminal, advertised airport link.
Edinburgh - 14m passengers a year - dedicated tram link, mainline parkway nearby.
Birmingham - 13m passengers a year - mainline interchange, dedicated shuttle
Bristol - 10m passengers a year - Shuttle Bus link to Bristol Temple Meads.
Glasgow - 7m a year - Bus link to Paisley Gilmour Street
Belfast International - 6.7m passengers a year - Bus link to Belfast Grand Central. Station proposed on Lisburn-Antrim line if that reopens.
Newcastle - 5m passengers a year - T&W Metro dedicated link
Liverpool - 4m passengers a year - links to Liverpool South Parkway nearly 3 miles away
Leeds-Bradford - 4m passengers a year - bus connections to local stations and Leeds/Bradford city centres.

This would suggest that a dedicated mainline branch isn't really justified for Leeds-Bradford, but that a localised shuttle or extension of a future tram link probably would.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The vertical distance from Google Map's contours between Horsforth and LBA seems to be about 75m (see terrain view). A light rail link can handle much steeper gradients than a conventional rail link, and also doesn't get in to the weeds of what services etc.
To keep the gradient reasonable any mainline station is likely to need to be reasonably deep underground - not impossible to construct, but rather expensive and also then extends journey times for passengers with large amounts of luggage to get up to the airport terminal itself.

For comparison:
Heathrow - 83m passengers a year - Dedicated branches for dedicated express, EL and LU, 2x coach links to other stations
Gatwick - 40m passengers a year - direct mainline station, advertised express (although not exclusively airport now, I think).
Manchester - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated tram service.
Stansted - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated express link.
Luton - 16m passengers a year - dedicated parkway station + shuttle to terminal, advertised airport link.
Edinburgh - 14m passengers a year - dedicated tram link, mainline parkway nearby.
Birmingham - 13m passengers a year - mainline interchange, dedicated shuttle
Bristol - 10m passengers a year - Shuttle Bus link to Bristol Temple Meads.
Glasgow - 7m a year - Bus link to Paisley Gilmour Street
Belfast International - 6.7m passengers a year - Bus link to Belfast Grand Central. Station proposed on Lisburn-Antrim line if that reopens.
Newcastle - 5m passengers a year - T&W Metro dedicated link
Liverpool - 4m passengers a year - links to Liverpool South Parkway nearly 3 miles away
Leeds-Bradford - 4m passengers a year - bus connections to local stations and Leeds/Bradford city centres.

This would suggest that a dedicated mainline branch isn't really justified for Leeds-Bradford, but that a localised shuttle or extension of a future tram link probably would.

I dont know why youre going on about a heavy rail station underground as Im certainly not advocating for one.

So anyway, do you believe a gradient is achieveable for light rail/tram between this proposed station and the Airport ?

 

[Zomboid]

The straight line distance between Horsforth station and the terminal building is about 3km. So a gradient of about 2.5%, which is hard going for heavy rail, but not especially remarkable for light rail.

Of course the route wouldn't be a straight line, because that would cross the taxiways and stuff.

Unfortunately it would also serve nothing else whatsoever unless it went a really long way round.

 

[quantinghome]

Just from looking at the map, wouldn't Guiseley be the station to run a connecting bus from? More journey options (including Bradford) from there, rather than the Leeds - Harrogate line.

There is already a connecting bus from Guiseley - the A3 flyer (which originates in Bradford). It's a 3 mile journey and takes about 20 minutes along congested roads.

 

[Meerkat]

The straight line distance between Horsforth station and the terminal building is about 3km. So a gradient of about 2.5%, which is hard going for heavy rail, but not especially remarkable for light rail.

Of course the route wouldn't be a straight line, because that would cross the taxiways and stuff.

Unfortunately it would also serve nothing else whatsoever unless it went a really long way round.

I reckoned it was feasible for modern electric commuter stock, and if the parking was right it could be a parkway for the towns to the north.
The gradient is probably less of a technical problem than a cost and planning objections one - getting a smooth gradient will involve a lot of earthmoving.

 

[anothertyke]

I'd like to see an outline feasibility study of a tram from Guiseley station through Yeadon town centre to the airport. I don't think the airport and the employment zone will ever generate enough demand on its own to justify bespoke infrastructure but combined with better connectivity for Yeadon to both Leeds and Bradford there might be the beginnings of a case.

My view of the 2021 proposal is that it was really a glorified park and ride site from Otley and Yeadon to Leeds in a rather unsuitable place at high cost with an airport bus tacked on. The place where you might justify a new station on the Harrogate line is at Horsforth Woodside.

 

[Meerkat]

I'd like to see an outline feasibility study of a tram from Guiseley station through Yeadon town centre to the airport. I don't think the airport and the employment zone will ever generate enough demand on its own to justify bespoke infrastructure but combined with better connectivity for Yeadon to both Leeds and Bradford there might be the beginnings of a case.

It wouldn’t be better than a bus directly to Leeds though would it?

 

[anothertyke]

It wouldn’t be better than a bus directly to Leeds though would it?

It might depend on time of day. Off peak from the airport you are right, depending on frequencies.

 

[quantinghome]

I'd like to see an outline feasibility study of a tram from Guiseley station through Yeadon town centre to the airport. I don't think the airport and the employment zone will ever generate enough demand on its own to justify bespoke infrastructure but combined with better connectivity for Yeadon to both Leeds and Bradford there might be the beginnings of a case.

You'd struggle to find a feasible segregated corridor. The old Guiseley-Yeadon railway branch doesn't get you to Yeadon town centre. The roads are busy. How do you get from Yeadon town centre to the A658?

 

[zwk500]

I dont know why youre going on about a heavy rail station underground as Im certainly not advocating for one.

If you'd read my post you'd note I am 'going on about' an underground station because of the gradients that would be required for a non-underground station being somewhat heroic.

So anyway, do you believe a gradient is achieveable for light rail/tram between this proposed station and the Airport ?

I believe the gradient from Horsforth to LBA would be achievable for a People-mover type system. I believe a Light Rail/Tram option would be a separate link from Leeds city centre (and potentially Bradford as well) through Yeadon and so wouldn't have the same issue with gradients.

 

[Meerkat]

If you'd read my post you'd note I am 'going on about' an underground station because of the gradients that would be required for a non-underground station being somewhat heroic.

Is 1 in 44 heroic for modern electric traction?

 

[YorksLad12]

Ultimately, we're asking the railway to solve an aviation problem; Leeds Bradford Airport is in the wrong place (too high up with a poor road network and poor onward connections). East of Leeds, however, were two much better options with nearby rail links. And not too far away from the M1 and A1(M). Both long since unavailable.

Mind you, there's a railway at the end of Doncaster Sheffield Airport but they wanted to build a spur off the east coast line instead, so... pfft.

 

[zwk500]

Is 1 in 44 heroic for modern electric traction?

Certainly taxing, and yes probably heroic if outdoors in a Pennine Autumn. The current design standard specifies a maximum sustained gradient of 1:80 for a railway not expected to carry freight. This line would need level stretches for the station and throat pointwork, as well as not being able to ascend until it's cleared the junction at Horsforth. Add in the curve, and the fact that uphill the driver would be fighting both gravity and curvature resistance approaching buffer stops with all their protection, and going downhill a driver would be crossing across the face of a Leeds-Harrogate train. The junction would likely need double-red protection or similar.

1:44 is well within the range of light rail or metros, but most other sustained banks don't have an immovable hazard immediately at the summit, or a conflicting move across a junction immediately at the base. Bromsgrove station was moved back to give modern electric traction a bit of a runup at the Lickey, which is 2 miles of 1:37.7, the summit has a decent run until Barnt Green and the conflicting move at Stoke Works Jn is some way south of the base of the climb.
Although, as I mentioned, if it was a light rail connection I suspect it'd be coming out of Leeds on it's own and heading for Yeadon so would be on a completely different alignment.

 

[quantinghome]

I believe the gradient from Horsforth to LBA would be achievable for a People-mover type system. I believe a Light Rail/Tram option would be a separate link from Leeds city centre (and potentially Bradford as well) through Yeadon and so wouldn't have the same issue with gradients.

I think you need to familiarise yourself with Yeadon's topography (and etymology).

 

[zwk500]

I think you need to familiarise yourself with Yeadon's topography (and etymology).

Apologies, maybe I should have phrased it 'would have completely different issues with gradients'. The key point was that I am expecting a light rail system to be on a completely different alignment and so the concerns about climbing from Horsforth station aren't relevant.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Surely if that was their desire then surely they would bother building this new station as the gradient even for light rail would be significantly gentler from Horsforth. Unless the aspiration was to build somethin akin to a cliffe railway.

But it's much further from Horsforth to LBA than the proposed LBA Parkway to LBA would be, and automated people mover systems have significantly lower overall running costs once built (plus you can ramp up capacity with more frequent trains if needed relatively easily - more difficult with a shuttle directly connected to the national railway network itself.)

Would it? Doesnt seem prohibitively steep if you take the right route.

As zwk has mentioned, it's 75 metres up from the railway line with the current proposal, and even from Horsforth, it's still a considerable difference in elevation you have to deal with. Remember that the Harrogate Line probably isn't going to be electrified within the next decade, so you'd have to partially electrify the line from Leeds and use precious paths to run Leeds - LBA services, or run existing DMUs up very steep gradients in some shape or form (with a lot of the new link likely in tunnel). Makes no sense.
People mover (or if aiming for lower capital costs) a light rail shuttle link between LBA Parkway - LBA makes much more sense in the long term.

I'd like to see an outline feasibility study of a tram from Guiseley station through Yeadon town centre to the airport. I don't think the airport and the employment zone will ever generate enough demand on its own to justify bespoke infrastructure but combined with better connectivity for Yeadon to both Leeds and Bradford there might be the beginnings of a case.

My view of the 2021 proposal is that it was really a glorified park and ride site from Otley and Yeadon to Leeds in a rather unsuitable place at high cost with an airport bus tacked on. The place where you might justify a new station on the Harrogate line is at Horsforth Woodside.

I don't think a tram connecting the airport to Bradford via Apperley Bridge and Yeadon would be a terrible idea, I can't see a tram from Guiseley to LBA via Yeadon alone passing a cost benefit analysis sadly, journey times wouldn't be that much of an improvement for either Yeadon or LBA to Leeds or Bradford.

Ultimately, we're asking the railway to solve an aviation problem; Leeds Bradford Airport is in the wrong place (too high up with a poor road network and poor onward connections). East of Leeds, however, were two much better options with nearby rail links. And not too far away from the M1 and A1(M). Both long since unavailable.

Mind you, there's a railway at the end of Doncaster Sheffield Airport but they wanted to build a spur off the east coast line instead, so... pfft.

Indeed, but we are where we are. LBA still exists and it does need a form of improved public transport (partly as a result of the mostly dire surrounding road network). Whether that is BRT/tramway/station and people mover or light rail link, I don't know, but it needs it.

 

[anothertyke]

You'd struggle to find a feasible segregated corridor. The old Guiseley-Yeadon railway branch doesn't get you to Yeadon town centre. The roads are busy. How do you get from Yeadon town centre to the A658?

No probs. Straight up the high street and straight over the tarn on a spectacular bridge. Make a statement. Add smiley to taste.

 

[ainsworth74]

Certainly taxing, and yes probably heroic if outdoors in a Pennine Autumn. The current design standard specifies a maximum sustained gradient of 1:80 for a railway not expected to carry freight. This line would need level stretches for the station and throat pointwork, as well as not being able to ascend until it's cleared the junction at Horsforth. Add in the curve, and the fact that uphill the driver would be fighting both gravity and curvature resistance approaching buffer stops with all their protection, and going downhill a driver would be crossing across the face of a Leeds-Harrogate train. The junction would likely need double-red protection or similar.

1:44 is well within the range of light rail or metros, but most other sustained banks don't have an immovable hazard immediately at the summit, or a conflicting move across a junction immediately at the base. Bromsgrove station was moved back to give modern electric traction a bit of a runup at the Lickey, which is 2 miles of 1:37.7, the summit has a decent run until Barnt Green and the conflicting move at Stoke Works Jn is some way south of the base of the climb.
Although, as I mentioned, if it was a light rail connection I suspect it'd be coming out of Leeds on it's own and heading for Yeadon so would be on a completely different alignment.

Surely we should just do as the Swiss do and have a rack railway? They happily have trains that change from conventional track to rack track on the move!

 

[Meole]

Cardiff airport thrives without a direct rail connection.

 

[anothertyke]

Cardiff airport thrives without a direct rail connection.

Really? The airport which has lost two thirds of its traffic in twenty years?

 

[AlterEgo]

The vertical distance from Google Map's contours between Horsforth and LBA seems to be about 75m (see terrain view). A light rail link can handle much steeper gradients than a conventional rail link, and also doesn't get in to the weeds of what services etc.
To keep the gradient reasonable any mainline station is likely to need to be reasonably deep underground - not impossible to construct, but rather expensive and also then extends journey times for passengers with large amounts of luggage to get up to the airport terminal itself.

For comparison:
Heathrow - 83m passengers a year - Dedicated branches for dedicated express, EL and LU, 2x coach links to other stations
Gatwick - 40m passengers a year - direct mainline station, advertised express (although not exclusively airport now, I think).
Manchester - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated tram service.
Stansted - 30m passengers a year - dedicated branch on mainline, dedicated express link.
Luton - 16m passengers a year - dedicated parkway station + shuttle to terminal, advertised airport link.
Edinburgh - 14m passengers a year - dedicated tram link, mainline parkway nearby.
Birmingham - 13m passengers a year - mainline interchange, dedicated shuttle
Bristol - 10m passengers a year - Shuttle Bus link to Bristol Temple Meads.
Glasgow - 7m a year - Bus link to Paisley Gilmour Street
Belfast International - 6.7m passengers a year - Bus link to Belfast Grand Central. Station proposed on Lisburn-Antrim line if that reopens.
Newcastle - 5m passengers a year - T&W Metro dedicated link
Liverpool - 4m passengers a year - links to Liverpool South Parkway nearly 3 miles away
Leeds-Bradford - 4m passengers a year - bus connections to local stations and Leeds/Bradford city centres.

This would suggest that a dedicated mainline branch isn't really justified for Leeds-Bradford

This all assumes that Britain’s very poor rail transport links to its (many) provincial airports with small catchments are all justified.

However, LBA could close tomorrow and Britain wouldn’t really be any less connected.

Cardiff airport thrives without a direct rail connection.

Cardiff Airport is being subsidised to the tune of about £200m because it is a giant airport-shaped furnace to burn money in. It still exists mostly because of politics.

Britain has far too many airports, which affect the economies of scale of the aviation industry here. You could close half of them within five years, and absorb the excess elsewhere, and passenger numbers wouldn’t really be impacted.

 

[thejuggler]

Cardiff airport thrives without a direct rail connection.

Either a very tongue in cheek statement or a typo and they meant Bristol, which is about as easy to access as LBA, but does very well despite this fact.

 

[quantinghome]

Either a very tongue in cheek statement or a typo and they meant Bristol, which is about as easy to access as LBA, but does very well despite this fact.

In true Ryanair style, Bristol is being renamed Cardiff-Lloegr.

 

[anothertyke]

This all assumes that Britain’s very poor rail transport links to its (many) provincial airports with small catchments are all justified.

However, LBA could close tomorrow and Britain wouldn’t really be any less connected.


Cardiff Airport is being subsidised to the tune of about £200m because it is a giant airport-shaped furnace to burn money in. It still exists mostly because of politics.

Britain has far too many airports, which affect the economies of scale of the aviation industry here. You could close half of them within five years, and absorb the excess elsewhere, and passenger numbers wouldn’t really be impacted.

I agree that many of those doing less than a million a year could go. But Leeds is doing four million and is fifteenth in the league table, so I don't think that's one of them, although it's a shame we didn't do a new build at the M1/M62 junction in 1960.

But anyway I think closures would put a lot more weight on surface access-- Leeds is all there is between Newcastle and Nottingham on the E side and the M62 and TPE are not enticing prospects. It's probably the same at Soton, Exeter, Norwich etc. And planning seems to be out of favour judging by the Government's apparent support for any airport to do anything it wants provided it doesn't cost public money and 'creates jobs'. Don't expect a rational airports policy any time soon!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Britain has far too many airports, which affect the economies of scale of the aviation industry here. You could close half of them within five years, and absorb the excess elsewhere, and passenger numbers wouldn’t really be impacted.

I agree.

If millions are going to be spent on connecting Airports to the rail network then only those which are relatively easy to do and are in a good location for conmectivity should be persued.