Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[158756]

To answer the question, no I don't think free travel should be provided for anyone. There's already discounts if you buy a railcard.

A question I want to ask though - why are the eligibility criteria for disabled railcards and bus passes different?

Why do war pensioners and disabled people who can drive need to use the train but not the bus, whilst people who can't drive but can't or don't claim PIP need to use the bus but not the train?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Indeed we do, retirement age a few years ago was just 60 for women, it's now 68. If today's youngsters get a state pension, who knows what age it will be.

For me it'll be when I'm 70, although by then I do hope that the Senior Railcard is still going it - may even be merged with a heavily revised ENCTS scheme. Either way its likely that the ENCTS could be scrapped completely depending on which council / PTE / CA goes bust first.

There are some Twirlies (ah God how I love that term) who will still want to waste time sitting on a bus going from one end to the other and then heading straight back - seriously what is the point.

It'd be even worse with hoards of twirlies running amok, some would end up in the sidings at Knottingley for about 30 or so minutes before they head back to Leeds and some would abuse the system by using Intercity services and constantly be claiming that "they didn't know" that their ENCTS pass wasn't vaild on them.

 

[HH]

To answer the question, no I don't think free travel should be provided for anyone. There's already discounts if you buy a railcard.

I don't think railcards work on buses.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...Twirlies...

You have some serious problems with green eyes.

 

[Robertj21a]

There are some Twirlies (ah God how I love that term) who will still want to waste time sitting on a bus going from one end to the other and then heading straight back - seriously what is the point.

.

For many it encourages them to get out and about, see the area, stay active, have companionship - and keep warm !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are some Twirlies (ah God how I love that term) who will still want to waste time sitting on a bus going from one end to the other and then heading straight back - seriously what is the point.

Who said they are wasting their time...have you ever spoken to any of those you decry to ask their views on the matter?

We are both in our 70s and once were able to go direct from Macclesfield bus station to Ashbourne bus station on a service 108 when Clowes Coaches ran it and we can still make that journey by changing at Leek. We like the iconic church of St Oswald, with a chapel full of the raised tombs of people going back hundreds of years and Ashbourne has a large number of antique shops to visit. We always take lunch there and allow ourselves plenty of time to make our visits, before returning to Macclesfield. Yes, I know that my wife uses the Range Rover but she also likes the opportunity at times to sit back, enjoy the scenery and let others do the driving.

 

[PeterC]

For many it encourages them to get out and about, see the area, stay active, have companionship - and keep warm !

The market day bus back to my village is a mobile social club. However, none of the regulars spend their days riding up and down, the only journeys that wouldn't be made otherwise seem to be to the occasional church coffee morning one change of bus away.

Free rail travel is a silly idea but in an ideal world I would do away with a separate senior railcard and give the current fare discounts to all ENCTS users automatically.

 

[Andyh82]

No, the whole point of the free bus scheme was to ensure pensioners can get out and about to their local town and access facilities.

Free train travel is usually not necessary to access that basic facility, and if offered it would end up like what is happening on the buses. Large numbers taking long distance leisure trips all over the place causing capacity problems.

Various rural or hopper buses have been axed in recent years as a bus full of pensioners is not commercially viable due to poor reimbursement from local councils. There have also been issues on buses such as the Yorkshire Coastliner due to pensioners taking far too frequent trips from Leeds to York and the East Coast due to it being free.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We both buy our three-year Senior Citizens Railcard online as this not only works out cheaper than buying three separate annual ones, but there is usually an extra discount to be had if you use the promotion code.

 

[HowardGWR]

There is an illogicality in making tube and other provincial city local rail services and all bus services free to disabled and pensioners (75 plus would be my rule, like the TV licence) but not branch line type train services for local trips to market towns. I am sure council schemes could define which rail services would be so made free. In my area, a trip from, say, Maiden Newton to Dorchester or Feniton to Honiton.

You would get an annotated pass from your Council, same as you do now for your OAP bus pass. To deal with the 'surfing' pensioner, mentioned above, such long distance leisure services could be defined as excluded; councillors would be made accountable to local electors as to whether they were being mean or not. If you look up the First X53 coastal services from Poole through to Exeter, these services would be hardly used in winter, were it not for free travellers.

Dorset and Devon cancer sufferers often have to travel the length of the county to get radiation treatment. It would be a boon if such people could get temporary passes to cover such trips, whether by rail or bus. People can't help being ill and they can't help where they live.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[graham11]

Would it not be easier just to offer a discount to ENCT card holders on trains .

The card has a photograph so could only be used by the holder .

Maybe a discount of 33.33 % would be a good compromise.

Graham

 

[AlterEgo]

Would it not be easier just to offer a discount to ENCT card holders on trains .

The card has a photograph so could only be used by the holder .

Maybe a discount of 33.33 % would be a good compromise.

Graham

That's the discount a Senior Railcard gives.

 

[graham11]

That is correct , but you have to buy the card whereas the ENCT is already held.

Graham

 

[Busaholic]

There is an illogicality in making tube and other provincial city local rail services and all bus services free to disabled and pensioners (75 plus would be my rule, like the TV licence) but not branch line type train services for local trips to market towns. I am sure council schemes could define which rail services would be so made free. In my area, a trip from, say, Maiden Newton to Dorchester or Feniton to Honiton.

You would get an annotated pass from your Council, same as you do now for your OAP bus pass. To deal with the 'surfing' pensioner, mentioned above, such long distance leisure services could be defined as excluded; councillors would be made accountable to local electors as to whether they were being mean or not. If you look up the First X53 coastal services from Poole through to Exeter, these services would be hardly used in winter, were it not for free travellers.

Dorset and Devon cancer sufferers often have to travel the length of the county to get radiation treatment. It would be a boon if such people could get temporary passes to cover such trips, whether by rail or bus. People can't help being ill and they can't help where they live.

Just a few thoughts.

Regrettably the X53 is now but a shadow of its previous self, sunk more by traffic delays than anything else. It takes a minimum of three buses now to make the Exeter to Poole journey, and 'connections' where available are not optimal in all cases. My information on this I readily admit comes from Buses magazine, over several issues.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

For me it'll be when I'm 70, .

really given there is only plans to extend the state pension age to 69 and only current legislation raising it to 68 ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310231/spa-timetable.pdf

 

[Tetchytyke]

For bus travel anywhere else in England I would charge them the appropriate child rate.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

I don't mind people getting discounts. I do mind the free travel.

I would be willing to bet that those people who have a problem with older people holding a free travel card are all younger and are a long way off the age to get one.

Well I've already said I'm in my mid-30s, so it's not a huge guess for you to make.

And yes, that is a big part of my problem, that I am having to pay twice (once in tax, again in higher fares) to pay for something that I will never ever receive. I'll be amazed if even the state pension still exists in 35 years* when I get to retire; I'll eat my hat if ENCTS does.

*at current prices. I'll bet what is now a predicted retirement age of 68 for me will be more like 71 or 72 when the time actually comes.

 

[graham11]

Arctric Troll.

It was a guess because it wasn`t just you I was referring to you alone .

However , it is hardly worth considering what may happen in 35 years time as everything may have changed completely.
With robots taking over many jobs perhaps the retirement age may drop ---- who knows ?
Graham

 

[Camden]

What a penny pinching, miserable and misguided society Britain has become in some respects. Obviously there was a rationale behind making travel free in the first place, but it seems some people haven't stopped to think about that. Ever heard of the word "society"?

Travel equals some freedom, and a longer and happier life. While some would argue for means testing, there is plenty of evidence to show that even that often ends up costing more than it saves. And disabled people, in order to get anything, are pretty heavily "tested" these days anyway. Just to make sure they aren't walking off with literally tens of your tax pounds every year.

The term "the selfie generation" never seemed more apt.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Obviously there was a rationale behind making travel free in the first place

Yeah, it was an election bribe.

The term "the selfie generation" never seemed more apt.

The generation who expects the taxpayer to give them £1.2bn a year for something they can afford to pay for themselves?

 

[Camden]

Some seem to have a mindset where everything belongs to someone, and someone can only have something if it's taken from someone else.

"The taxpayer" in many cases equals the people being spoken about who have paid into the system. And as far as elderly people go, they are "the taxpayer" who will quite possibly have to sell their assets to pay for social and nursing care, which tax isn't going towards, and then have anything left over (if they are indeed rich enough) to be subject to 40% lopped off in inheritance tax too. There are many who wouldn't be able to afford travel, so it is rather sweeping to brandish a figure and claim it is unnecessary.

The point of paying tax isn't to save into a piggy bank for yourself, it's the fund the collective. If you want to shout out for "the taxpayer" I can think of a whole host of issues to campaign on, about those who really do spend "your" money on tat by the billion. However taking one rare instance where comparatively small amounts of "your" money actually ends up in the pockets or to the benefit of the ordinary person isn't one of them.

I find this conversation not just a sad indictment of a miserable country with an increasingly miserable mindset, but also a sad indictment of our education system.

 

[Tetchytyke]

"The taxpayer" in many cases equals the people you're talking about who have paid into the system.

Not for a free bus pass they haven't, given it was only invented ten years ago.

And as far as elderly people go, they are "the taxpayer" who will quite possibly have to sell their assets to pay for social and nursing care

...as will I, when I'm that old.

then have anything left over (if they are indeed rich enough) to be subject to 40% lopped off in inheritance tax too.

Inheritance tax is a tax on the person who inherits, not a tax on the deceased person.

The point of paying tax isn't to save into a piggy bank for yourself, it's the fund the collective.

...which is why "I paid tax all my life so deserve my bus pass now" is such a stupid argument.

I live in a city where the council can no longer afford to fund, among other things, social welfare legal rights services, the CAB, swimming pools, libraries, weekly bin collections, street cleaning, dementia care and leisure centres. Many school bus routes in the area are operated commercially- charging commercial fares- because the council cannot afford to support them.

It's got to something when we can't afford to support school buses because ENCTS blows so much of the council's transport budget.

Blowing £1.2bn a year on something OAPs can- and should- pay for themselves is a disgrace. It has nothing to do with "jealousy" or "selfishness". If we had a magic money tree then I'd have no issue with ENCTS. But we don't, so I do.

If we think the CAB is an unaffordable luxury but a bus pass for wealthy OAPs is an essential expenditure, we've got it all @rse over tit.

 

[Camden]

I agree completely that right now society has it A over T. As I say, look to where "your" billions are really going to waste. Not to those rare instances where the money actually finds its way back into society.

By the time you're 70, who knows what someone your age now will be suggesting is an "unaffordable luxury".

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I say, look to where "your" billions are really going to waste.

Wasting money on other things doesn't stop ENCTS being a waste of money too.

We didn't have OAPs dying at home alone when we charged 30p for a single ticket on the bus, but we did have more subsidised evening and weekend buses and we did have supported school buses.

 

[Camden]

If you're not willing to listen and actually think then there's no point in talking to you. Are you really so indoctrinated that those strawman "arguments" make sense to you... I would hope not.

All that needs be said now is that I for one will happily continue to support this and other social initiatives that involve spending public money on the public, and oppose cuts to any of them. And if you are any indication of what counts as emerging society attitude towards your fellow citizen, by the time you're in the majority and get the misery fest you're after (all the while "your" money being hoarded who knows where while increasing numbers of people have nothing) you'll mainly only be affecting yourselves. I suppose being taken for a mug only hurts if you realise it's happening, right?

 

[al78]

Not for a free bus pass they haven't, given it was only invented ten years ago.



...as will I, when I'm that old.



Inheritance tax is a tax on the person who inherits, not a tax on the deceased person.



...which is why "I paid tax all my life so deserve my bus pass now" is such a stupid argument.

I live in a city where the council can no longer afford to fund, among other things, social welfare legal rights services, the CAB, swimming pools, libraries, weekly bin collections, street cleaning, dementia care and leisure centres. Many school bus routes in the area are operated commercially- charging commercial fares- because the council cannot afford to support them.

It's got to something when we can't afford to support school buses because ENCTS blows so much of the council's transport budget.

Blowing £1.2bn a year on something OAPs can- and should- pay for themselves is a disgrace. It has nothing to do with "jealousy" or "selfishness". If we had a magic money tree then I'd have no issue with ENCTS. But we don't, so I do.

No, looking out for the vulnerable and needy in society is not a disgrace. I would class things like spending over £200bn on Trident as a disgrace, or suibsidising dirty fossil fuel industries or spending $18bn plus on a nuclear power station, then claiming that there is no money to promote renewable energy is a disgrace. It is a disgrace that the sociopathic elite and corporations can get away with tax dodging by the billions; if EVERYONE paid their fair share of tax we'd have plenty of money to put towards improving our world. It is a disgrace that in 2007, investment bankers were allowed to convert gambling losses into public debt to be repaid by the taxpayer, whilst almost bringing the global economy to its knees (i.e. externalising risks and costs). Subsidising free public transport for OAPs doesn't even register on the disgrace scale by comparison. :roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you're not willing to listen and actually think then there's no point in talking to you. Are you really so indoctrinated that those strawman "arguments" make sense to you... I would hope not.

There were no issues with mobility or isolation back before ENCTS when concessionary pass holders were charged a flat rate or concessionary fare. In Tyne and Wear it was 30p for a single ticket or £1 for a day ticket; similar prices were charged in West Yorkshire. That should be affordable for people on a pension- it's significantly cheaper than the fares charged to working age adults on low incomes.

I'm not saying we should charge disabled people and OAPs full price because I have to pay full price. The old concessionary scheme worked fine: heavily discounted local travel, slightly discounted long-distance travel.

We spend £1.2bn a year on ENCTS, and that doesn't properly fund it. The true cost is probably closer to £1.5bn. That's about five times the annual saving from the Bedroom Tax. Only about 10% of OAP pass holders are on a low income without access to a car- supposedly the rationale behind the scheme.

In an ideal world it wouldn't be an either/or choice, but it isn't an ideal world, and it is an either/or choice. And, quite frankly, I'd rather spend the £1.2bn on things that would genuinely change peoples lives, rather than on a freebie for people who (mostly) have sufficient money to not need it. It was an electoral bribe, a giveaway by Gordon Brown to persuade OAPs to vote for him, nothing more and nothing less.

The current scheme gives you a free bus journey to access local services, but funding cuts means most of the local services have gone. Seems an odd choice of priorities.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I find it distressing that there is an increasing tendency amongst the population to only pay in to something if they expect to get at least the same amount back. This is counter to the objective of collective responsibility and care.

I pay all my rates and taxes and am happy to do it, I don't complain that as I have no children (and no intent to have any) that I should not have to pay for the education budget, which along with health is one of the largest. Lest you say I have had an education, my parents paid for that in their taxes.

Rather than protest about spending on pensioners when other facilities are disappearing one should fight to get them reinstated.

 

[Camden]

"Odd choice of priorities" would seem to me to be an inapplicable criticism from someone unable or unwilling to learn "critical thinking", as opposed to accepting and steadfastly sticking by a hymn sheet.

If there is an "unaffordable luxury" a certain generation has it will be living dumbed down lives hindered by the lack of that more than anything. And impoverished they may be because of it, absolutely not because of spending a comparatively small sum of public funds on bus passes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I find it distressing that there is an increasing tendency amongst the population to only pay in to something if they expect to get at least the same amount back. This is counter to the objective of collective responsibility and care.

This works both ways though: demanding free bus travel when you have enough money to pay for your own bus tickets is also "counter to collective responsibility".

As I said, the DfT's own research tells us that only 11% of OAP pass holders are on a low income without access to a car. We're therefore not talking about poor and vulnerable people here, we're talking about people clinging on to a freebie- a freebie that didn't exist ten years ago- as some sort of inalienable right.

OAPs expect us to pay for this freebie, even though they didn't when they were working, and anyone who complains is "selfish"? Aye right.

 

[JamesRowden]

This works both ways though: demanding free bus travel when you have enough money to pay for your own bus tickets is also "counter to collective responsibility".

As I said, the DfT's own research tells us that only 11% of OAP pass holders are on a low income without access to a car. We're therefore not talking about poor and vulnerable people here, we're talking about people clinging on to a freebie- a freebie that didn't exist ten years ago- as some sort of inalienable right.

OAPs expect us to pay for this freebie, even though they didn't when they were working, and anyone who complains is "selfish"? Aye right.

Free bus passes for OAPs are effectively part of the state pension. State pensions have existed for a long time. Providing free bus passes means that the cash component of the state pension does not need to be so great to support the poor 11% that you refer to.

 

[najaB]

Providing free bus passes means that the cash component of the state pension does not need to be so great to support the poor 11% that you refer to.

How much was the state pension reduced by to fund free bus travel?