Should school meals be free for everyone?

[yorkie]

... by that age, they can be starting to have influence over their meal choices and can suggest picking up half a dozen bananas or some oranges in the shopping instead of dairy milk based on personal preferences and their knowledge from school.

Good luck with that; unfortunately some of them prefer to purchase crisps, Haribo etc.

I'm not sure I agree. Blazers were the thing on my experience in 70s London and I don't recall it being any sort of issue.
Don't the majority of schools have a blazer policy anyway? And why a colour being a problem?
I would imagine a jumper would wear out quicker than a cheap blazer.

Jumpers are more affordable than Blazers.

I don't see a lot of support for Blazers, except of course from headteachers or CEOs of Trusts, who want to deter poorer families choosing that school.

If you just stipulated a colour, and let people pick any jumper or blazer of that colour, you'd get different kids having different brands, which causes issues. Having a specific uniform acts as a social leveller, and reduces bullying.

 

[westv]

Good luck with that; unfortunately some of them prefer to purchase crisps, Haribo etc.

Jumpers are more affordable than Blazers.

I don't see a lot of support for Blazers, except of course from headteachers or CEOs of Trusts, who want to deter poorer families choosing that school.

If you just stipulated a colour, and let people pick any jumper or blazer of that colour, you'd get different kids having different brands, which causes issues. Having a specific uniform acts as a social leveller, and reduces bullying.

A blazer is a blazer is a blazer. Again from my school back in the day, the only stipulation was that it had to be navy blue, plain and not have brass buttons.

 

[Eyersey468]

I agree with them across the board for primary school children though I do agree there is a danger of mission creep and people expecting more and more to be provided paid for by the tax payer.

 

[gswindale]

Schools with sensible uniform policies do not stipulate blazers.

The schools that require blazers do so because they are trying to deter poorer families from choosing that school, in my opinion, though they'd never admit it.

I've just looked at the websites of the 6 secondary schools closest to where I grew up that are all in the same LEA. All 6 of them require a blazer as part of the uniform.

I've also looked at the closest one in a neighbouring authority - again a blazer is part of the uniform.

Are you therefore claiming that all of these schools are trying to deter people from choosing them because of their dress code? I find it hard to believe that so many schools in one LEA would do so - we certainly had a fair mix of people at secondary school from across the wealth spectrum.

 

[yorkie]

I've just looked at the websites of the 6 secondary schools closest to where I grew up that are all in the same LEA. All 6 of them require a blazer as part of the uniform.

I've also looked at the closest one in a neighbouring authority - again a blazer is part of the uniform.

Are you therefore claiming that all of these schools are trying to deter people from choosing them because of their dress code? I find it hard to believe that so many schools in one LEA would do so - we certainly had a fair mix of people at secondary school from across the wealth spectrum.

Are these Academies or local area authority controlled? Also, do the schools offer uniform vouchers and/or have second hand uniform shops?

In recent years, Academisation has resulted in an increase in schools requiring blazers.

Just because all the schools in a particular area have switched to blazers, does not make it the right thing to do.

Jumpers are more affordable than blazers, so if schools want to bring costs down for parents, they would consider that.

Another consideration is shoes: do the schools have strict shoe requirements, or can trainers be worn? Allowing trainers is a good way to reduce costs for parents; if they are required to be plain black, this avoids issues regarding fashion and looks smart enough.

Uniform costs can be significant for parents; fully inclusive schools will take all reasonable measures to keep those costs down while retaining a reasonably smart look.

A blazer is a blazer is a blazer. Again from my school back in the day, the only stipulation was that it had to be navy blue, plain and not have brass buttons.

But you'd still get different brands/styles being worn, wouldn't you?

 

[johntea]

Can't remember if I got free school meals or not but I do remember the Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) scheme when I was studying in further education where I essentially got £30 a week, naturally as a 16-17 year old about 3p of that went on actual needs for study and the rest just blown on nights out and shopping!

The scheme is long gone in the UK now (although looks to still be going in Northern Ireland / Scotland / Wales), in the UK there is now a bursary fund scheme instead

 

[DustyBin]

I'm not sure if we're talking about eligible people not applying or kids not taking up the offer; if the latter, well some kids don't want to eat much and would rather not give up play time to sit down and eat lunch. You can gently encourage, but you can't force them.

More so the former really, along with children not eligible but who would benefit (those with parents in-work but struggling for example). You’re right in so far as not being able to force them of course.

This isn’t a subject I know much about to be honest, so I’m happy to be educated!

 

[E27007]

I think schoolchildren have a raw deal, they have no-one such as Trade Unions to look after them and progress their interests.
My schooldays were 9 am to 4 pm and two hours of homework per evening, the homework enforced by detention and "the cane", ie an archaic 45 hour week,
My working week was down to 35 hours by my 30s, and I never took work home with me.
My Father used to tell me my schooldays would prove to be the happiest days of my life, how wrong he proved to be.

ps no lectures please that homework every evening was "for my own good" The imposed homework prevented my following personal scientific and academic interests

 

[Richard Scott]

I think schoolchildren have a raw deal, they have no-one such as Trade Unions to look after them and progress their interests.
My schooldays were 9 am to 4 pm and two hours of homework per evening, the homework enforced by detention and "the cane", ie an archaic 45 hour week,
My working week was down to 35 hours by my 30s, and I never took work home with me.
My Father used to tell me my schooldays would prove to be the happiest days of my life, how wrong he proved to be.

ps no lectures please that homework every evening was "for my own good" The imposed homework prevented my following personal scientific and academic interests

No they don't get a raw deal. School is nothing like real life.
To be honest they need a bigger taste of what's expected of them. Targets imposed on schools mean teachers are more under pressure and the pupils know that so they do as little as they can get away with in many cases. Too much "I don't get it" when they haven't even tried. As for homework hardly worth the effort setting as guarantee most won't bother. I could go on.
These are the people who will pay our pensions and you think things are bad now?

 

[PGAT]

No they don't get a raw deal. School is nothing like real life.
To be honest they need a bigger taste of what's expected of them. Targets imposed on schools mean teachers are more under pressure and the pupils know that so they do as little as they can get away with in many cases. Too much "I don't get it" when they haven't even tried. As for homework hardly worth the effort setting as guarantee most won't bother. I could go on.
These are the people who will pay our pensions and you think things are bad now?

It's so easy to say that when you aren't a child

 

[75A]

No mention of many days holiday children get.
It took me 30 years to get to the maximum in the company I worked for - 32 days + Bank Holidays.

 

[najaB]

No mention of many days holiday children get.
It took me 30 years to get to the maximum in the company I worked for - 32 days + Bank Holidays.

You think it's difficult for families to get holidays together now, just think what it would be like if they only got four weeks a year!

 

[Richard Scott]

It's so easy to say that when you aren't a child

It is when you work with them. They need to know where they stand, it's actually better for their wellbeing to know what's expected.
Also I was one once so do have some idea! Not like I've never experienced being a child.

 

[Energy]

So an increase of less than half a percent of overall government spending, with the potential to improve educational outcomes.

And in reality the figure will be quite a bit lower than that since a lot of parents would opt their children out of the meals on offer.

£5.3bn isn't a lot compared to the £181.7bn spent on NHS England in 22/23.

That isn't to say the NHS isn't valuable, but free school meals isn't some unachievable goal.



From the Institute of Financial Studies:

Offering free lunches to all primary school pupils would cost about £1 billion a year, similar to the cost of offering free meals to all children (primary and secondary) whose families receive universal credit. Going one step further and offering free school meals to all children from Reception to Year 11 would cost over £2.5 billion per year

 

[Richard Scott]

£5.3bn isn't a lot compared to the £181.7bn spent on NHS England in 22/23.

That isn't to say the NHS isn't valuable, but free school meals isn't some unachievable goal.



From the Institute of Financial Studies:

It's not a lot in comparison but it's still £5.3 billion. Would be better spent on other educational resources. I don't see why we need free school meals for all. Many parents can afford to feed their children and do so.

 

[najaB]

I don't see why we need free school meals for all. Many parents can afford to feed their children and do so.

But how many of them have to make the choice between feeding their child(ren) and other expenses?

 

[Richard Scott]

But how many of them have to make the choice between feeding their child(ren) and other expenses?

Oh come on, for most this isn't an issue. If it's your child then sacrifice the new car.
Those who genuinely can't afford it can get free school meals.
The way some people go on in this forum you'd think everyone was on the breadline, it really isn't true.

 

[najaB]

Oh come on, for most this isn't an issue. If it's your child then sacrifice the new car.

Tell me you're out of touch with the public, without telling me you're out of touch with the public.

The way some people go on in this forum you'd think everyone was on the breadline, it really isn't true.

Read up on the situation of the working poor in the UK. Something like 60% of families below the poverty line have one or both parents in work. And, in a lot of cases, because they're classed as employed their children aren't entitled to school meals.

 

[hst43102]

Oh come on, for most this isn't an issue. If it's your child then sacrifice the new car.

What next? Cut out the avocado toast and Netflix subscription? What an absolutely out of touch comment.

 

[Bevan Price]

What next? Cut out the avocado toast and Netflix subscription? What an absolutely out of touch comment.

Some people need to learn the difference between what is essential, and what is an unnecessary luxury.

 

[hst43102]

Some people need to learn the difference between what is essential, and what is an unnecessary luxury.

And which of those does feeding children nutritious meals fall into?

 

[GusB]

Read up on the situation of the working poor in the UK. Something like 60% of families below the poverty line have one or both parents in work. And, in a lot of cases, because they're classed as employed their children aren't entitled to school meals.

This is exactly the issue. While the system is supposed to provide for those on the absolute minimum incomes, it doesn't take into account those who happen to be just above the threshold for such support and, as a result, there are people who fall between the cracks.

Even if there are parents who could just about afford it, putting a bit of extra money in their pockets might result in them spending the money saved on days out - more money for the local economies they spend it in.

So many people have to work multiple part-time jobs in order to keep a roof over their heads that they may not have the time to come home and cook a proper meal for their kids. This isn't a failure of the parents; it's a failure of the system that permits allows employers to pay a pittance while expecting their employees to be fully-flexible regarding hours worked, while not actually guaranteeing any hours!

Some people need to learn the difference between what is essential, and what is an unnecessary luxury.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think you'll find that most people who are on the breadline are well versed in deciding what is necessary and what isn't. It's easy to sit there and pontificate when you don't have to choose between heating and eating.

 

[Eyersey468]

No matter where a threshold for something is there will always be someone who is just above it

 

[E27007]

In simple terms, should we aspire to organise our society to provide for needs "from the cradle to the grave" or not?
If we are quibbling about a basic matter of a free school meal for every child by a school "in loco parentis" , then the answer is NOT.

 

[Richard Scott]

What next? Cut out the avocado toast and Netflix subscription? What an absolutely out of touch comment.

No, it's not out of touch. Those who are struggling get free school meals. There are lots who aren't. Who pays fir this? We all do through taxes so you'll be asking those who can least afford it to pay for it.
Yes, there are people who are struggling but it's not as many as media would have you believe.

 

[Whistler40145]

Even for non-schoolchildren?

Wasn't free when I was at school

 

[hst43102]

No, it's not out of touch. Those who are struggling get free school meals. There are lots who aren't. Who pays fir this? We all do through taxes so you'll be asking those who can least afford it to pay for it.
Yes, there are people who are struggling but it's not as many as media would have you believe.

Even taking the poverty argument out of it, removing the requirement for parents to prepare meals for their children will increase productivity and decrease stress - the long term benefits to the country would be huge. It's only a bad concept to those who can't see past the next election cycle.

 

[Richard Scott]

Even taking the poverty argument out of it, removing the requirement for parents to prepare meals for their children will increase productivity and decrease stress - the long term benefits to the country would be huge. It's only a bad concept to those who can't see past the next election cycle.

But that won't happen. How difficult is it to feed your own child? You have to feed yourself so does it really cause that much stress?
Chances are feeding them at home makes life easier as you know what they're eating. A child may not make best choices at school and some will skip lunch altogether.
I'm afraid I don't think your idea here would work in reality even if the principle is sound.

 

[najaB]

But that won't happen. How difficult is it to feed your own child? You have to feed yourself so does it really cause that much stress?

Unfortunately, for too many parents it is far too often exactly that choice that they face: feed themselves or feed their children.

No matter where a threshold for something is there will always be someone who is just above it

Which is an excellent argument for making it universal, no?

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately, for too many parents it is far too often exactly that choice that they face: feed themselves or feed their children.

I wonder how many that actually applies to?

Much more common, I think, is neglect and laziness; a teacher at a primary school, who is also a parent, was telling me that they now have to brush kids teeth in school because some parents wont do it.

You also see bad choices for spending the money they have, for example kids not eating healthy food and the parents smoking or giving them (money for) sweets instead.

Unfortunately there are no easy answers to any of this however I do welcome studies to see what the impact of various initiatives is. I suspect the results will be vastly different in different areas.