Should some Class 350 sets go to TPE once the Transpennine Electrification Programme is completed and once they're retired?

[tetudo boy]

I've thought about this for a while, do you think that some class 350 sets could have a future with TPE? Okay, yes, they did work with TPE for a short while but they were second-hand units, but as the Transpennine Electrification Programme is ready in just 2 years time, would it be good to replace some class 185 sets that currently operate on most services to be replaced by electric class 350 sets? Here's my concept:

Class 350/2s:

• So far, the only class 350 set's that are suitable for cascading is the Class 350/2 sets. They could be converted to battery set's as proposed by Porterbrooke although this may not happen.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service alongside the class 802 Nova 1 sets.
• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds services.
• Could make use of some Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh services to enhance capacity and replace the Class 185 set's currently operating on the services. (run alongside the Class 397 Nova 2 sets.)

The following services are for services which Class 350/2 sets could operate on if they are converted to battery sets:

• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Hull service.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Redcar Central service alongside the Nova 3 sets.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I've thought about this for a while, do you think that some class 350 sets could have a future with TPE? Okay, yes, they did work with TPE for a short while but they were second-hand units, but as the Transpennine Electrification Programme is ready in just 2 years time, would it be good to replace some class 185 sets that currently operate on most services to be replaced by electric class 350 sets? Here's my concept:

Class 350/3s and Class 350/4s:

• Seeing as some sets are being replaced by Class 730 set's, I thought that the Class 350/3s and /4s could be cascaded to TransPennine Express and the Class 350/1s could stay with LNWR.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service alongside the class 802 Nova 1 sets.
• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds services.
• Could make use of some Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh services to enhance capacity and replace the Class 185 set's currently operating on the services. (run alongside the Class 397 Nova 2 sets.)

Class 350/2 Porterbrook BatteryFLEX battery-powered set's:

• Most Class 350/2 sets that are being converted to battery bi-modes could operate on TransPennine Express services which operate on unelectrified sections.
• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Hull service.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Redcar Central service alongside the Nova 3 sets.
• Some sets Could operate on the same services that the Class 350 Electric stock on TPE would operate on to enhance capacity.

What are your thoughts?

They just got rid of their 350/4 For additional capacity on LNWR with the 350/2’s being replaced and 319’s???

 

[Starmill]

The class 340/4 weren't second hand units, they were built in 2013 and remained in service there until earlier this year.

What new electrification are you referring to that is going to be ready in only two years?

 

[JonathanH]

Class 350/2 Porterbrook BatteryFLEX battery-powered set's:

• Most Class 350/2 sets that are being converted to battery bi-modes could operate on TransPennine Express services which operate on unelectrified sections.

I'm sure that if Porterbrook could find a taker for 350/2s as straight electrics, they would favour this outcome over converting them to Battery Flex units.

Class 350/3s and Class 350/4s:

They have a future with West Midlands Trains.

Could make use of some Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh services to enhance capacity and replace the Class 185 set's currently operating on the services. (run alongside the Class 397 Nova 2 sets.)

185s don't operate these services any more so no role for 350s.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The class 340/4 weren't second hand units, they were built in 2013 and remained in service there until earlier this year.

What new electrification are you referring to that is going to be ready in only two years?

I’m going to guess Manchester to leeds but as far as i read it will only be electrified between Huddersfield and Leeds so only that section could be 350’s.

 

[HST43257]

I don’t see why TPE couldn’t just get a full fleet of 5 car 802s from the start. There could also be an option for 2 cars to be added to some/all of them. No need for multiple smallish fleets when they could get a large fleet of about 55 802s (49 diagrams, with Leeds - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Manchester slow services handed over to Northern with 4 car EMUs. Nottingham to Liverpool services are included in the 49 diagrams).

 

[py_megapixel]

I don’t see why TPE couldn’t just get a full fleet of 5 car 802s from the start. There could also be an option for 2 cars to be added to some/all of them. No need for multiple smallish fleets when they could get a large fleet of about 55 802s (49 diagrams, with Leeds - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Manchester slow services handed over to Northern with 4 car EMUs. Nottingham to Liverpool services are included in the 49 diagrams).

IIRC it was something to do with delivery timescales why they didn't do that; I won't explain it here as I'll probably get it wrong but someone else might be able to elaborate.

 

[David Goddard]

Logical suggestion, if the wires were to go right across the pennines, but if only to Huddersfield then limited use.
If the Leeds- York gap was filled then could be used on a through Huddersfield to York service, but not North of there as their maximum speed would take up more paths than the 802s.
With threads elsewhere discussing the Harrogate loop as well, electric/battery hybrid 350/2s could be ideal in West Yorks, taking on:
Huddersfield Line
Harrogate Line (battery from extent of wiring to York)
Wakefield Line (battery from Fitzwilliam to Sheffield), plus also Sheffield to Ardwick
York/Selby Line (interworked with one of the above to enable charging on juice between trips on battery)

 

[HST43257]

IIRC it was something to do with delivery timescales why they didn't do that; I won't explain it here as I'll probably get it wrong but someone else might be able to elaborate.

I highly doubt that Class 397s will have been better than extra 802s for delivery timescales. Surely It would be easier to maintain a larger 802 fleet instead 2 separate smaller fleets of 802s and 397s.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've thought about this for a while, do you think that some class 350 sets could have a future with TPE? Okay, yes, they did work with TPE for a short while but they were second-hand units, but as the Transpennine Electrification Programme is ready in just 2 years time, would it be good to replace some class 185 sets that currently operate on most services to be replaced by electric class 350 sets? Here's my concept:

Class 350/3s and Class 350/4s:

• Seeing as some sets are being replaced by Class 730 set's, I thought that the Class 350/3s and /4s could be cascaded to TransPennine Express and the Class 350/1s could stay with LNWR.

What are your thoughts?

LNWR 350/3 and 350/4 aren’t being replaced. They aren’t available to cascade to anyone, so that half of your whole scheme is impossible.

 

[py_megapixel]

I highly doubt that Class 397s will have been better than extra 802s for delivery timescales.

Why?

 

[tetudo boy]

LNWR 350/3 and 350/4 aren’t being replaced. They aren’t available to cascade to anyone, so that half of your whole scheme is impossible.

The what is suitable for cascading? Sorry if I have underlooked this, I usually do this with a lot of things. I'll be happy to change my concept.

 

[py_megapixel]

The what is suitable for cascading? Sorry if I have underlooked this, I usually do this with a lot of things. I'll be happy to change my concept.

The 37 350/2s are being returned to Porterbrook and don't have another lease planned.

 

[swt_passenger]

The what is suitable for cascading? Sorry if I have underlooked this, I usually do this with a lot of things. I'll be happy to change my concept.

It’s well known that only the 350/2 are being off leased. You seem to think they’re all going straight for battery conversion, even that’s only hypothetical, in the absence of a confirmed user. They aren't likely to be converted on spec.

 

[tetudo boy]

It’s well known that only the 350/2 are being off leased. You seem to think they’re all going straight for battery conversion, even that’s only hypothetical, in the absence of a confirmed user. They aren't likely to be converted on spec.

Any Class 350/1s for cascading?

 

[43096]

Any Class 350/1s for cascading?

No.

As stated above only the 350/2s are coming off lease.

 

[py_megapixel]

Any Class 350/1s for cascading?

No.

However there's a few Desiros coming from Heathrow Connect - being 5 car I don't know if EMR are going to take them

 

[tetudo boy]

No.

As stated above only the 350/2s are coming off lease.

No.

However there's a few Desiros coming from Heathrow Connect - being 5 car I don't know if EMR are going to take them

So, the Class 350/2 it is then. The class 360s could go to TPE but I think they're better off at EMR.

 

[tetudo boy]

The class 340/4 weren't second hand units, they were built in 2013 and remained in service there until earlier this year.

What new electrification are you referring to that is going to be ready in only two years?

Really? I thought I heard someone say they were. Must be me.

 

[swt_passenger]

Really? I thought I heard someone say they were. Must be me.

When they were newly built there were always many people (including on here) who would say the 350/4 were “subleased” from London Midland, but they weren’t. All that happened was London Midland were asked by DfT to order them on behalf of TPE, using existing options.

 

[Neptune]

The class 360s could go to TPE but I think they're better off at EMR.

No the 360’s couldn‘t go to TPE. They‘re all spoken for at EMR for a considerable time.

An add on of 802’s would be better to replace the remaining 185’s and the mk5 fleet.

Keep the 397’s as they are on the WCML Scottish services and run 802’s on everything else. Its also easier to step up units when necessary.

 

[Starmill]

No the 360’s couldn‘t go to TPE. They‘re all spoken for at EMR for a considerable time.

Really? I thought all 5 class 360/2 were going off lease!

 

[py_megapixel]

Can the 360s work in multiple with 350s?

 

[Neptune]

Really? I thought all 5 class 360/2 were going off lease!

Of course. I always forget about those 5 units. The Heathrow units will probably end up in Thailand or as scrap.

 

[Energy]

I highly doubt that Class 397s will have been better than extra 802s for delivery timescales. Surely It would be easier to maintain a larger 802 fleet instead 2 separate smaller fleets of 802s and 397s.

It was to do with timescales, the 18 802s were the most they could get for TPE at that time without having to wait longer

 

[Fokx]

I've thought about this for a while, do you think that some class 350 sets could have a future with TPE? Okay, yes, they did work with TPE for a short while but they were second-hand units, but as the Transpennine Electrification Programme is ready in just 2 years time, would it be good to replace some class 185 sets that currently operate on most services to be replaced by electric class 350 sets? Here's my concept:

Class 350/2s:

• So far, the only class 350 set's that are suitable for cascading is the Class 350/2 sets. They could be converted to battery set's as proposed by Porterbrooke although this may not happen.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service alongside the class 802 Nova 1 sets.
• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds services.
• Could make use of some Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh services to enhance capacity and replace the Class 185 set's currently operating on the services. (run alongside the Class 397 Nova 2 sets.)

The following services are for services which Class 350/2 sets could operate on if they are converted to battery sets:

• Could operate on the Manchester Piccadilly to Hull service.
• Could operate on the Manchester Airport to Redcar Central service alongside the Nova 3 sets.

What are your thoughts?

There is no requirement to the Newcastle services to be operated by 350/2’s as all services are covered and ran by 802’s.

They won’t be able to operate the Manchester to Huddersfield as this service is being extended to Wakefield Kirkgate which is not part of the electrification

Scottish services are not operated by 185 and are fully 397/802.

Hull and Redcar Central aren’t electrified lines and currently I don’t believe there’s a battery operated train that can run at the same speed or distance along these routes non-electrified

 

[Glenn1969]

Also the electrification scheme still hasn't been fully scoped and as far as I know is a 2022 start not finish

 

[37424]

Also the electrification scheme still hasn't been fully scoped and as far as I know is a 2022 start not finish

Indeed the only practical use for EMU's initially would be Leeds to Huddersfield when that gets completed, and Leeds-York if and when that gets completed and the idea of the whole thing being completed in 2 years time well!

If and When Manchester- Leeds gets completed then then potentially the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper could go to EMU possibly the 2 stoppers might get combined as a single service again I know there is an intention to run the Manchester - Huddersfield to Wakefield but I think that's mainly due to lack of platform space at Huddersfield which presumably wont be an issue once Huddersfield is remodelled.

In any case the whole timetable would probably be recast and so you couldn't really take anything for granted.

Also what about electrification between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge not herd much mention of that even though 2 services are routed that way at present, and either would have to stay Diesel, become Bi-mode or be re routed to Victoria, if it doesn't get done.