Should Southern or SWR take over operations on the North Downs Line?

[SouthEastBuses]

Should Southern or SWR take over operations on the North Downs Line? Services are currently operated by GWR using class 165 Networker Turbos. If that were the case, I'd see 171s being used on the North Downs line if operations is transferred to Southern, or 158s/159s if operations is transferred to SWR.

And if it were to transfer to Southern, could we see a Guildford to London Victoria service via Dorking Deepdene??

And if SWR was to take over, could we see another London Waterloo to Reading service, but this time via Guildford, North Camp & Farnborough Main?

 

[Domh245]

If that were the case, I'd see 171s being used on the North Downs line if operations is transferred to Southern, or 158s/159s if operations is transferred to SWR.

Where do you think either TOC is going to magic up the extra 158/159/171s from?

 

[JonathanH]

No. It works fine with GWR.

GWR are procuring 769s for the line in any case.

And if it were to transfer to Southern, could we see a Guildford to London Victoria service via Dorking Deepdene??

No - much as there might be merits to the idea of a stopping service from Victoria to Guildford via Redhill (and Reading stopping services to go to Cranleigh (or maybe just the park and ride site on the Old Portsmouth Road)), there is no capacity to terminate it at Guildford and the plans for Reigate are to ultimately switch the Victoria train to run to Gatwick.

And if SWR was to take over, could we see another London Waterloo to Reading service, but this time via Guildford, North Camp & Farnborough Main?

No - reversal needed at Guildford - no capacity to run these services to Waterloo instead of Portsmouth trains.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Where do you think either TOC is going to magic up the extra 158/159/171s from?

158s - From TFW, because of the 197s replacing them?
171s - From maybe other companies that currently run 170s that won't need them?

Or otherwise simply transfer the 165s if there are no 158/159/171 available.

For the Southern extra 171s, they could get them from WMR (either as 170s or 172s), since I belive the 196s are replacing all the DMUs that WMR currently own. Of course I might be wrong and please correct me if that's the case.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fundamentally, you do not need a different train operator to use different stock.

 

[Domh245]

158s - From TFW, because of the 197s replacing them?
171s - From maybe other companies that currently run 170s that won't need them?

Or otherwise simply transfer the 165s if there are no 158/159/171 available.

For the Southern extra 171s, they could get them from WMR (either as 170s or 172s), since I belive the 196s are replacing all the DMUs that WMR currently own. Of course I might be wrong and please correct me if that's the case.

You must have missed the extensive discussions not too long ago about EMR's fleet plans being dependant on getting almost all of Southern's 171s (in addition to the WMR 170s, minus the centre cars for XC) and how unlikely it was that this would happen.

The 158s pose less of a problem cascade wise, but are only available from mid 2022 (assuming 197 introduction goes to plan) but I would argue that there's several better places for them to be used than SWR (namely GWR & Northern)

Transferring the 165 makes the most sense of all those proposals but all you've done there is change the livery and complicate leasing/maintenance agreements for no benefit (from the Rolling stock POV)

 

[swt_passenger]

158s - From TFW, because of the 197s replacing them?
171s - From maybe other companies that currently run 170s that won't need them?

Or otherwise simply transfer the 165s if there are no 158/159/171 available.

For the Southern extra 171s, they could get them from WMR (either as 170s or 172s), since I belive the 196s are replacing all the DMUs that WMR currently own. Of course I might be wrong and please correct me if that's the case.

WMR are not replacing all their existing DMU, only the 170s are moving, mostly to EMR with some centre cars to XC.

EMR is known to be taking all the 170s it can, which includes many from WMR, and is also isupposed to include some of Southern‘s 171s. This is fairly widely known, so Southern are basically trying to solve a lack of 171s, yet you’re trying to get them more?

So that’s your ideas for Southern using 171s impossible...

 

[43096]

Should Southern or SWR take over operations on the North Downs Line? Services are currently operated by GWR using class 165 Networker Turbos. If that were the case, I'd see 171s being used on the North Downs line if operations is transferred to Southern, or 158s/159s if operations is transferred to SWR.

And if it were to transfer to Southern, could we see a Guildford to London Victoria service via Dorking Deepdene??

And if SWR was to take over, could we see another London Waterloo to Reading service, but this time via Guildford, North Camp & Farnborough Main?

Only worth it if the line is fully electrified using third rail, as it would then fit better with either GTR or SWR. Otherwise leave it with GWR.

 

[cactustwirly]

Should Southern or SWR take over operations on the North Downs Line? Services are currently operated by GWR using class 165 Networker Turbos. If that were the case, I'd see 171s being used on the North Downs line if operations is transferred to Southern, or 158s/159s if operations is transferred to SWR.

And if it were to transfer to Southern, could we see a Guildford to London Victoria service via Dorking Deepdene??

And if SWR was to take over, could we see another London Waterloo to Reading service, but this time via Guildford, North Camp & Farnborough Main?

I don't see what you would gain from transferring operator, just making it more complicated as there isn't a suitable depot that can be used, apart from Reading which is GWR.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

At this point, the most sensible would be that if it was to transfer to Southern, to order an additional fleet of Electrostars (or Aventras) but with either bi-mode capabilities or with batteries (the same one they used on the class 379 ideally) in order to allow operation on the North Downs Line

But ideally, I'd rather have the North Downs Line electrified instead of bi-mode if possible.

And it should be electrified with third rail. I much prefer OHLE but electrifying a short stretch of a line with a system that is completely different to the majority of the rail network in the South East just doesn't make sense. So at this point the North Downs Line would work well with third rail.

And think about the disadvantages od having order potentially expensive dual-voltage units etc.

You must have missed the extensive discussions not too long ago about EMR's fleet plans being dependant on getting almost all of Southern's 171s (in addition to the WMR 170s, minus the centre cars for XC) and how unlikely it was that this would happen.

The 158s pose less of a problem cascade wise, but are only available from mid 2022 (assuming 197 introduction goes to plan) but I would argue that there's several better places for them to be used than SWR (namely GWR & Northern)

Transferring the 165 makes the most sense of all those proposals but all you've done there is change the livery and complicate leasing/maintenance agreements for no benefit (from the Rolling stock POV)

Woops, better take a read at that then

You must have missed the extensive discussions not too long ago about EMR's fleet plans being dependant on getting almost all of Southern's 171s (in addition to the WMR 170s, minus the centre cars for XC) and how unlikely it was that this would happen.

The 158s pose less of a problem cascade wise, but are only available from mid 2022 (assuming 197 introduction goes to plan) but I would argue that there's several better places for them to be used than SWR (namely GWR & Northern)

Transferring the 165 makes the most sense of all those proposals but all you've done there is change the livery and complicate leasing/maintenance agreements for no benefit (from the Rolling stock POV)

Woops, better take a read at that then

No - much as there might be merits to the idea of a stopping service from Victoria to Guildford via Redhill (and Reading stopping services to go to Cranleigh (or maybe just the park and ride site on the Old Portsmouth Road)), there is no capacity to terminate it at Guildford and the plans for Reigate are to ultimately switch the Victoria train to run to Gatwick.

Doesn't have to be an all day service, maybe a peak hour service would probably be the best option considering the potentially lower demands (it would only really benefit villages between Guildford and Dorking in having a direct train to London).

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't have to be an all day service, maybe a peak hour service would probably be the best option considering the potentially lower demands (it would only really benefit villages between Guildford and Dorking in having a direct train to London).

Arranging one-off peak services is not a good way to manage the railway. People who travel on them are put off by having to manage their travel plans around one service and it causes havoc with timetabling. There really isn't likely to be that much of a flow from the local stations between Chilworth and Betchworth to London and very little scope for new housebuilding. Even Guildford and Dorking to Croydon represent flows where alternatives are available already.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If Reigate to Guildford was electrified, I would have Southern extend the half hourly Victoria - Reigate through Dorking Deepdene and down to Guildford to replace the Great Western, and continue to Farnham to replace the Guildford Farnham shuttle

Then I’d have Wokingham Ash electrified and have a 450 every twenty minutes over Reading - Guildford.

 

[Journeyman]

Admittedly the North Downs ending up with GWR is an odd historical accident. The line was always associated with the South Eastern division of the Southern Railway/Region, and when dieselised used the Southern's Tadpole DEMUs. The Hastings vehicles in these sets were needed back on the Hastings line following service enhancements in the late seventies, and the only suitable spare stock to run the line happened to be Western Region cross country DMUs. This ended up sticking, with enough 16x units ordered in the nineties to replace them. No point in returning it to a different TOC back then, as the only available alternatives in the area were the decrepit and noisy Southern DEMUs.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There would only be a point in changing it if the line were electrified throughout, and another TOC already had sufficient stock, but I don't think any of the TOCs formed out of the three Southern Region divisions would have enough spare units of their own.

Before anyone says it, we're not going to use 442s, alright?

 

[swt_passenger]

If Reigate to Guildford was electrified, I would have Southern extend the half hourly Victoria - Reigate through Dorking Deepdene and down to Guildford to replace the Great Western, and continue to Farnham to replace the Guildford Farnham shuttle

Then I’d have Wokingham Ash electrified and have a 450 every twenty minutes over Reading - Guildford.

So your grand plan actually bins the 2 tph Reading to Gatwick service that everyone else has been working towards for the last few years?

What’s the actual problem you are trying to solve?

 

[RichJF]

No - much as there might be merits to the idea of a stopping service from Victoria to Guildford via Redhill (and Reading stopping services to go to Cranleigh (or maybe just the park and ride site on the Old Portsmouth Road)), there is no capacity to terminate it at Guildford and the plans for Reigate are to ultimately switch the Victoria train to run to Gatwick.

I believe the plan is to switch the Victoria services to Gatwick (no splitters at Redhill) & the TL to revert to Reigate (pending construction of the 12-car platform 3 at Reigate) in the mid-term future.

 

[MatthewRead]

If South western Railway were to take over and the line was electrified with third rail they could use 450's or 701's I've read that there is an option for an additional 10 units.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If Reigate to Guildford was electrified, I would have Southern extend the half hourly Victoria - Reigate through Dorking Deepdene and down to Guildford to replace the Great Western, and continue to Farnham to replace the Guildford Farnham shuttle

Then I’d have Wokingham Ash electrified and have a 450 every twenty minutes over Reading - Guildford.

And how do you propose all the people connecting from the South and West at Reading then get to Gatwick with all their luggage other than forcing yet another change of train at Guildford?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

If Reigate to Guildford was electrified, I would have Southern extend the half hourly Victoria - Reigate through Dorking Deepdene and down to Guildford to replace the Great Western, and continue to Farnham to replace the Guildford Farnham shuttle

Then I’d have Wokingham Ash electrified and have a 450 every twenty minutes over Reading - Guildford.

I'd extend that SWR service from Guildford to Gatwick (so we can keep the Reading Gatwick service) using class 450s or 701s.

I'd also add pantographs to some class 450s, and extend the Reading Gatwick service to Oxford in the peak times. This is so the 450s can run on overhead electric after Reading.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd also add pantographs to some class 450s, and extend the Reading Gatwick service to Oxford in the peak times. This is so the 450s can run on overhead electric after Reading.

Why do you think it follows that because SWR operate 450s they would suddenly adapt these to operate on the North Downs Line? Why throw in the idea of running to Oxford when you are suggesting transferring is away from GWR? What exactly are the network benefits of what you are suggesting?

 

[CBlue]

What exactly are the network benefits of what you are suggesting?

There are benefits? Unfortunately all I can see is a whole lot of complexity for no real reason.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Why do you think it follows that because SWR operate 450s they would suddenly adapt these to operate on the North Downs Line? Why throw in the idea of running to Oxford when you are suggesting transferring is away from GWR? What exactly are the network benefits of what you are suggesting?

There is one train in the morning that goes from Gatwick Airport to Oxford or something like that. Maybe just one journey could be operated by GWR with dual voltage 387s and the rest of the trains (the ones that only go as far as Reading) by SWR?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd extend that SWR service from Guildford to Gatwick (so we can keep the Reading Gatwick service) using class 450s or 701s.

I'd also add pantographs to some class 450s, and extend the Reading Gatwick service to Oxford in the peak times. This is so the 450s can run on overhead electric after Reading.

So what’s going to operate the services the 450s or 701s are already booked to operate? The ones that the fleet size is already designed for? Surely the quantity of rolling stock a TOC has is fairly accurately tailored to its existing timetable.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

So what’s going to operate the services the 450s or 701s are already booked to operate? The ones that the fleet size is already designed for? Surely the quantity of rolling stock a TOC has is fairly accurately tailored to its existing timetable.

Well if it's not enough, just order extra 701s. Simple as that.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In theory, the smartest operator is SWR but only IF you have a successful third rail / diesel platform that’s also operable on the Waterloo - Exeter and Salisbury lines and therefore able to have those maintenance resources.

But, as it stands, it’s best with depot at either end and GWR is sensible for now.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Shouldn't it be South Eastern? Was built by the South Eastern Railway after all...

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Shouldn't it be South Eastern? Was built by the South Eastern Railway after all...

No, as Southeastern operates nowhere near the North Downs Line.

 

[infobleep]

Arranging one-off peak services is not a good way to manage the railway. People who travel on them are put off by having to manage their travel plans around one service and it causes havoc with timetabling. There really isn't likely to be that much of a flow from the local stations between Chilworth and Betchworth to London and very little scope for new housebuilding. Even Guildford and Dorking to Croydon represent flows where alternatives are available already.

You mean like the Southern peak services from Guildford to London via Bookham?

If the world just revolved around me I would love a direct service from Reading to Haywards Heath or even just Guildford to Haywards Heath. However it wouldn't be a good use of resources. At least one can get a train from Guildford to Gatwick Airport. For a time even that wasn't posisble!

I do however like the idea of trains running to Cranleigh. Whether it meets any business case in the current climate is another matter.

 

[The Ham]

I do however like the idea of trains running to Cranleigh. Whether it meets any business case in the current climate is another matter

Certainly not in the current climate, but 5 to 10 years time quite possibly.

Depending on when it would fit you could even run the 4th train per hour between Reading and Cranleigh (stopping service) and extend the Farnham Guildford service to Cranleigh to provide two services an hour. Maybe with some peak Waterloo services (although that's fairly unlikely).

That would probably require the line to Cranleigh to be electrified whilst being built, however if it also included the electrification of Wokingham to the junction near Ash then it could remove a good chunk of diesel use.

If there was then a need for a 4th service per hour East of Guildford then, again with electrification of the line it could be that there's a case for extending the services from Reigate to Guildford.

That could result in SWR (if they run all the Cranleigh services), Southern and GWR all running services on the NDL, would that be a solution to such threads?

 

[Bald Rick]

You mean like the Southern peak services from Guildford to London via Bookham?

I think you’ve seen the last of them.

 

[Minstral25]

If the world just revolved around me I would love a direct service from Reading to Haywards Heath or even just Guildford to Haywards Heath. However it wouldn't be a good use of resources. At least one can get a train from Guildford to Gatwick Airport. For a time even that wasn't possible!

It's not just you - there is a lot of pressure to have a service from Reigate/Redhill to Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton. GTR said that the fifth most popular purchased ticket from Redhill stations is to Brighton (when they were discussing May 2018 timetable changes) but there is no direct service service from Redhill heading South of Gatwick towards Brighton. So everyone has to change at Gatwick - which with no works on platforms 1- 3 in the current upgrade means it will remain as awful as it is now.

There is no capacity North of Redhill towards London for extra services (6 is what GTR/NR say is maximum), but there is room for extra services Southwards (according to GTR again), thus the most likely way of getting a service from Redhill to Brighton is apparently to use North Downs trains and extend from Gatwick. Not that in reality it is likely to happen.