Should Southern or SWR take over operations on the North Downs Line?

[SouthEastBuses]

It's not just you - there is a lot of pressure to have a service from Reigate/Redhill to Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton. GTR said that the fifth most popular purchased ticket from Redhill stations is to Brighton (when they were discussing May 2018 timetable changes) but there is no direct service service from Redhill heading South of Gatwick towards Brighton. So everyone has to change at Gatwick - which with no works on platforms 1- 3 in the current upgrade means it will remain as awful as it is now.

There is no capacity North of Redhill towards London for extra services (6 is what GTR/NR say is maximum), but there is room for extra services Southwards (according to GTR again), thus the most likely way of getting a service from Redhill to Brighton is apparently to use North Downs trains and extend from Gatwick. Not that in reality it is likely to happen.

A train from Reading (or Oxford) to Brighton would be certainly be a good idea. It would give the popular tourist town an easy access from more destinations around the UK. Makes me wish they had kept the Cross Country service that once ran directly from Manchester to Brighton. But time to stop right here as I feel like I'm going too off topic.

At this point, if there is a Oxford/Reading to Brighton service, it might as well stay as GWR using 769s.

Just remember everyone, I'm an open minded person so I'm open to many suggestions and ideas

You mean like the Southern peak services from Guildford to London via Bookham?

If the world just revolved around me I would love a direct service from Reading to Haywards Heath or even just Guildford to Haywards Heath. However it wouldn't be a good use of resources. At least one can get a train from Guildford to Gatwick Airport. For a time even that wasn't posisble!

I do however like the idea of trains running to Cranleigh. Whether it meets any business case in the current climate is another matter.

And for me who has to commute from Horsham to uni in Oxford, it certainly helps! I wouldn't be too happy if that service was scrapped!

 

[infobleep]

I think you’ve seen the last of them.

They kept talking of doing that but nothing ever happened. At least that is what I read now and again.

So maybe it will finally happen. I won't go on any further as it's off topic.

 

[ivorytoast28]

In general, the frequency needs to be improved. Unless the line can be electrified, there is an issue with SWR or southern taking over. But ignoring stock/electrification issues, the southern services to Reigate should be extended as a stopping service through to Guildford (using platforms 2/3 so therefore maybe a circular loop towards Leatherhead, epsom and back into the southern area would work and get rid of the stopping Guildford-london via leatherhead/ have extra services on the dorking-waterloo to replace it). This would be every 30 minutes.
But you still need to preserve the reading-gatwick link. Ideally this would run as it does now, but every 30 minutes (if gatwick can handle that) as a faster service only stopping at dorking reigate and redhill. Then to the west of Guildford have SWR run the stopping service every 30 minutes to reading (and 30 mins to Farnham so 15 mins Gld-Ash) and then those faster services from gatwick to reading running just before fast stopping only at north camp and wokingham. [These would use platforms 6/8 at Guildford].
In terms of capacity, i feel there is no issue with this plan. It creates 4tph from Guildford to reading and Guildford to Redhill and 2 tph from Reading to Gatwick. The bigger issue is that the lines aren't electrified and the train operators are a mess. I'd suggest Southern for stopping services west of guildford as stated and SWReast. Maybe the fast trains would stay as GWR (or as a possible fantasy, XC extensions)

I know it's also tight for platforms at guildford but i believe it could work as:

Platform 1: Guildford - London via cobham 2tbh
Platform 2: London Bridge/Epsom/Leatherhead - Redhill/London 2tph AND Reading- Gatwick fast 2tph (XC/GWR/Whoever)
Platform 3: Redhill/London - London Bridge/Epsom/Leatherhead 2tph
Platform 4: London - Haslemere/Portsmouth 4tph
Platform 5: Haslemere/Portsmouth - London 4tph
Platform 6: Guildford - Farnham SWR 2tph
Platform 8: Guildford - Reading SWR stopping 2tph AND Gatwick - Reading fast 2tph (XC/GWR/Whoever)

If necessary, platform 6/8 could change up as required as could 2/3

 

[infobleep]

In general, the frequency needs to be improved. Unless the line can be electrified, there is an issue with SWR or southern taking over. But ignoring stock/electrification issues, the southern services to Reigate should be extended as a stopping service through to Guildford (using platforms 2/3 so therefore maybe a circular loop towards Leatherhead, epsom and back into the southern area would work and get rid of the stopping Guildford-london via leatherhead/ have extra services on the dorking-waterloo to replace it). This would be every 30 minutes.
But you still need to preserve the reading-gatwick link. Ideally this would run as it does now, but every 30 minutes (if gatwick can handle that) as a faster service only stopping at dorking reigate and redhill. Then to the west of Guildford have SWR run the stopping service every 30 minutes to reading (and 30 mins to Farnham so 15 mins Gld-Ash) and then those faster services from gatwick to reading running just before fast stopping only at north camp and wokingham. [These would use platforms 6/8 at Guildford].
In terms of capacity, i feel there is no issue with this plan. It creates 4tph from Guildford to reading and Guildford to Redhill and 2 tph from Reading to Gatwick. The bigger issue is that the lines aren't electrified and the train operators are a mess. I'd suggest Southern for stopping services west of guildford as stated and SWReast. Maybe the fast trains would stay as GWR (or as a possible fantasy, XC extensions)

I know it's also tight for platforms at guildford but i believe it could work as:

Platform 1: Guildford - London via cobham 2tbh
Platform 2: London Bridge/Epsom/Leatherhead - Redhill/London 2tph AND Reading- Gatwick fast 2tph (XC/GWR/Whoever)
Platform 3: Redhill/London - London Bridge/Epsom/Leatherhead 2tph
Platform 4: London - Haslemere/Portsmouth 4tph
Platform 5: Haslemere/Portsmouth - London 4tph
Platform 6: Guildford - Farnham SWR 2tph
Platform 8: Guildford - Reading SWR stopping 2tph AND Gatwick - Reading fast 2tph (XC/GWR/Whoever)

If necessary, platform 6/8 could change up as required as could 2/3

In the peaks platform 3 is used for fast trains to Waterloo via the Guildford New Line, aka zooming through Cobham and platform 2 is the reverse in the evening.

Obviously late night trains and Sunday trains also use platform 2 to head to Portsmouth but that is less of an issue I think, unless terminating trains are using platform 4?

 

[TheWalrus]

I think what the OP is suggesting is regionally the North Downs Line fits better with Southern or SWR. As mentioned if it was electrified it would be a different story I think, maybe interworking units between Gatwicks and Waterloo at Reading. I think currently this thread is more because of the regions rather than operational convenience, which I would agree it does really fit more in Southern than Great Western.

 

[Minstral25]

I think what the OP is suggesting is regionally the North Downs Line fits better with Southern or SWR. As mentioned if it was electrified it would be a different story I think, maybe interworking units between Gatwicks and Waterloo at Reading. I think currently this thread is more because of the regions rather than operational convenience, which I would agree it does really fit more in Southern than Great Western.

Agree, it would logically but as it uses Diesels (or soon Diesels with added electric) the only nearby diesel depot is Reading. There is not actually another depot on the line or conveniently placed to add services, so that means Reading provides traction and that is a GWR depot.

If it is electrified that might change, especially if electrification program includes creating a depot or sidings at somewhere like Redhill or Guildford to base units.

 

[TheWalrus]

Agree, it would logically but as it uses Diesels (or soon Diesels with added electric) the only nearby diesel depot is Reading. There is not actually another depot on the line or conveniently placed to add services, so that means Reading provides traction and that is a GWR depot.

If it is electrified that might change, especially if electrification program includes creating a depot or sidings at somewhere like Redhill or Guildford to base units.

The only electric depot currently would be Three Bridges is the only one I can think of.

 

[30907]

Agree, it would logically but as it uses Diesels (or soon Diesels with added electric) the only nearby diesel depot is Reading. There is not actually another depot on the line or conveniently placed to add services, so that means Reading provides traction and that is a GWR depot.

If it is electrified that might change, especially if electrification program includes creating a depot or sidings at somewhere like Redhill or Guildford to base units.

OTOH, if the 769s work, there might be something to be said for transferring the whole lot to Southern and basing them at Selhurst, which has seen 319s before and has experience with diesels. That assumes there is capacity of course.
The disadvantage is that the busiest section is AIUI the Reading end, so you might end up with an impressive late evening service from Guildford to Redhill!

 

[Minstral25]

The only electric depot currently would be Three Bridges is the only one I can think of.

Which is full of Siemen's Class 700's with no spare capacity - even the Southern units which stable at Three Bridges don't enter the depot as they have their own stabling only sidings

OTOH, if the 769s work, there might be something to be said for transferring the whole lot to Southern and basing them at Selhurst, which has seen 319s before and has experience with diesels. That assumes there is capacity of course.
The disadvantage is that the busiest section is AIUI the Reading end, so you might end up with an impressive late evening service from Guildford to Redhill!

You also have to find paths on the overnight two track railway between Redhill and Selhurst which is already at capacity. (Late night Two track planning along Brighton Main Line allows Network Rail access overnight to do maintenance)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Am I missing something here but what’s the issue with maintaining the stock at Reading as currently happens?

 

[Minstral25]

Am I missing something here but what’s the issue with maintaining the stock at Reading as currently happens?

The post is "should Southern or SWR take over... North Downs". If that happens Reading wouldn't maintain stock which is why it should stay with GWR. I think that was the issue

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The post is "should Southern or SWR take over... North Downs". If that happens Reading wouldn't maintain stock which is why it should stay with GWR. I think that was the issue

Why would Reading no longer maintain the stock? There is no reason why just because an operator changes (in this case transferring to SW or SN) the depot at which the stock is maintained has to change too with it.

There’s plenty of reasons why and examples of operators buying in maintenance from another operators depot under depot access arrangements. An example between GWR and SWR is servicing bought in for GWR from SWR’s Fratton Depot or Scotrail from LNER’s Aberdeen Clayhills.

 

[Minstral25]

Why would Reading no longer maintain the stock? There is no reason why just because an operator changes (in this case transferring to SW or SN) the depot at which the stock is maintained has to change too with it.

There’s plenty of reasons why and examples of operators buying in maintenance from another operators depot under depot access arrangements. An example between GWR and SWR is servicing bought in for GWR from SWR’s Fratton Depot or Scotrail from LNER’s Aberdeen Clayhills.

That is my point - Reading maintains stock and as a GWR depot GWR run the service. Yes another operator could move into the depot but then you lose the flexibility to use same stock on other services (or should SWR take over the GW branches and services to Oxford as well) and you probably duplicate roles adding to costs. It is technically possible but would you actually do it.

My original point is there is no convenient depot other than Reading available. There are places sidings could be set up such as Redhill Triangle, Guildford Station (plus many more) and heavy maintenance could go to Wimbledon or Selhurst. I am not sure about Wimbledon but there is a lack of late night and early morning paths to Selhurst from Redhill to have much stock go to Selhurst overnight. Southern are restricted to get their current stock back from Reigate now.

 

[JonathanH]

I am not sure about Wimbledon but there is a lack of late night and early morning paths to Selhurst from Redhill to have much stock go to Selhurst overnight. Southern are restricted to get their current stock back from Reigate now.

Not that I agree with any proposal to try to get the route moved away from GWR but, in practice, with electric units what would happen is that units with an early evening finish would go to Selhurst as the service thins out with the units which run the service at the end of the day stabling on the route (eg Reading, Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick). It isn't necessary for electric units to get back to a depot. In contrast, diesel units need refueling so they do have to get back to a depot for servicing either at night or after the morning peak if outstabled.

It remains appropriate for the North Downs service to be run predominately out of Reading with a few units stabled at Redhill. Works better than any other proposal.

 

[Minstral25]

Not that I agree with any proposal to try to get the route moved away from GWR but, in practice, with electric units what would happen is that units with an early evening finish would go to Selhurst as the service thins out with the units which run the service at the end of the day stabling on the route (eg Reading, Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick). It isn't necessary for electric units to get back to a depot. In contrast, diesel units need refueling so they do have to get back to a depot for servicing either at night or after the morning peak if outstabled.

It remains appropriate for the North Downs service to be run predominately out of Reading with a few units stabled at Redhill. Works better than any other proposal.

Agree, but the Selhurst option is not there even early evening due to capacity between Redhill and Purley. Also for North Downs there are not many units that head to depot early. I think the first one arrives at Reading at 21:21 currently.

There is no need to change provider or basing units at Reading currently. A different question comes up if you electrify the line and/or merge it with the Tonbridge/Kent routes from Redhill. In both cases part of the proposal would need to be new depot or stabling facilities and then the option of changing franchisee could be discussed depending where this is.

 

[Roast Veg]

Expand the Redhill sidings, electrify the NDL, combine operations with Strood via Tonbridge?

Really going out of my way to solve non existant problems.

 

[Minstral25]

Expand the Redhill sidings, electrify the NDL, combine operations with Strood via Tonbridge?

Really going out of my way to solve non existant problems.

Interesting thought - are there non-existent problems along the North Downs line?

In terms of the railway generally relatively empty trains (except a few peak ones) doing good community services plus half a dozen Gatwick passengers. Nearby Tonbridge line chugs up and down with a few passengers too. So in terms of the railway itself no need to improve on current service whoever runs it.

However the busiest Motorway in England (M25) which the Southern and Western sections are often very jammed and many major A roads also overloaded run roughly parallel to the North Downs route. These roads are a problem needing relief and the real question is could the North Downs routes create an alternative which becomes a solution. If it is a solution then it probably shouldn't be run from the ends but the middle which would suggest adding into Southern Franchise somehow. With Franchises seemingly going anyway and Covid affecting finances I can't see North Downs being a priority in next few years for any Secretary of State beyond some timetable tweaks.