Should SWR’s class 701 Aventra order be cancelled?'

[py_megapixel]

the 701s from Almost

Typo, or Freudian slip?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

IIRC "Almost" is a joke name for Alstom from the 1990s, when build quality was terrible.

 

[43096]

Typo, or Freudian slip?

It's a "deliberate"...

IIRC "Almost" is a joke name for Alstom from the 1990s, when build quality was terrible.

"Nemesis" was also used for a certain German based engineering company.

 

[popeter45]

As it is the current orders for Aventras are not far off being fulfilled in full, I doubt if any Aventras are ever going to be ordered again and the only new order currently in the books is for HS2 stock. I therefore can't see that cancelling the order when half the 701s at least are already built is going to make much difference either way.

Siemens dont really have a regional UK train on offer at the moment (Desiro City is as the name suggest really designed for inner city metro not regional) , Stadler dont really have capacity for everybody to order from and Hitatchi's A200's really havent proved popular so really for regional your choice is Alstom or CAF for now

with how privatisation lead to everybody entering the new british market i wonder how that will change with GBR, will we see each concession acting as now or will we see larger multi-region orders akin to the IEP

 

[Chiltern006]

I assume the desiro uk line is now closed as that was a good UK regional train offered by Siemens in my opinion (185/350/450)

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Siemens have a concept for a UK regional train, the Desiro Verve.

Desiro – die richtungsweisende Zugfamilie

Perfect combination of comfort and reliability: Discover the Desiro train family.

www.mobility.siemens.com

 

[XAM2175]

Siemens have a concept for a UK regional train, the Desiro Verve.

Desiro – die richtungsweisende Zugfamilie

Perfect combination of comfort and reliability: Discover the Desiro train family.

www.mobility.siemens.com

What is this witchcraft?

Reliable right from the start
The company made a multi-million euro investment in its purpose-built Test- and Validationcenter in Wegberg-Wildenrath, Germany, which was constructed to replicate UK network conditions. The test tracks ensure that all trains are fully tested in a Network Rail-approved environment – prior to their entry to the UK. This allows a fault-free mileage accumulation for each vehicle and avoids disruptions on the busy UK rail networks.

 

[Wolfie]

What is this witchcraft?

Didn't, when you look at ScotRail, work too well in practice initially with the 380s.

 

[swt_passenger]

I assume the desiro uk line is now closed as that was a good UK regional train offered by Siemens in my opinion (185/350/450)

Shout out for the 444 as well though. In an AC version it would have ticked a lot of boxes for longer electrified routes.

 

[XAM2175]

Didn't, when you look at ScotRail, work too well in practice initially with the 380s.

I'm fairly sure that the Wildenrath expansion discussed in that piece is more recent than the 380 introduction.

 

[43096]

Didn't, when you look at ScotRail, work too well in practice initially with the 380s.

380 introduction was a model of how to do it in comparison with the utter dross that Derby has come up with on every Aventra order so far.

 

[D365]

380 introduction was a model of how to do it in comparison with the utter dross that Derby has come up with on every Aventra order so far.

Still took them a while to get the 700s right - and I seem to remember there’s still room for improvement…

 

[Meerkat]

As it is the current orders for Aventras are not far off being fulfilled in full, I doubt if any Aventras are ever going to be ordered again and the only new order currently in the books is for HS2 stock. I therefore can't see that cancelling the order when half the 701s at least are already built is going to make much difference either way.

There are the hydrogen Aventras and if they make a bi-mode there will be plenty of orders available. The opposition that have factories here, Hitachi and CAF, have hardly covered themselves in glory with their quality recently.
Of course if Alstom wanted out of the UK market and sold the factory to Stadler....

 

[Goldfish62]

There are the hydrogen Aventras and if they make a bi-mode there will be plenty of orders available. The opposition that have factories here, Hitachi and CAF, have hardly covered themselves in glory with their quality recently.
Of course if Alstom wanted out of the UK market and sold the factory to Stadler....

There might be "orders available" but it still needs someone to actually place the orders! Why would anyone order Aventras of any kind based on the current situation? There's going to be a dearth of new train orders anyway and there are what appear to be much better trains available from other manufacturers. Ones that actually work!

I like the idea of selling to Stadler.

 

[py_megapixel]

Why would anyone order Aventras of any kind based on the current situation?

Because they're the cheapest?

 

[Goldfish62]

with how privatisation lead to everybody entering the new british market i wonder how that will change with GBR, will we see each concession acting as now or will we see larger multi-region orders akin to the IEP

Everything so far has stated that the train operators will be responsible for procuring the rolling stock as now.

Because they're the cheapest?

So you would always buy a washing machine that has the reputation for blowing up after a couple of months because it's the cheapest?

Procurement doesn't work like that. There's always a quality side to the evaluation, taking into account rack record and performance.

 

[py_megapixel]

So you would always buy a washing machine that has the reputation for blowing up after a couple of months because it's the cheapest?

I wouldn't, no. I'm suggesting that someone else might.

Procurement doesn't work like that. There's always a quality side to the evaluation, taking into account rack record and performance.

Obviously that evaluation doesn't work properly then.

 

[Goldfish62]

Obviously that evaluation doesn't work properly then.

Not true. It would be impossible to assess the track record of something that hadn't been built yet. All the orders for Aventras were placed long before the reliability and build quality issues became evident. The evaluation would most probably have assessed Bombardier's track record with Electrostar in lieu of nothing else to go on. Given the huge success of Electrostar it would be more than reasonable to assume that Aventra would follow in its footsteps. No one could have predicted that this would turn out to be so not the case.

 

[Meerkat]

Why would anyone order Aventras of any kind based on the current situation? There's going to be a dearth of new train orders anyway and there are what appear to be much better trains available from other manufacturers. Ones that actually work!

Are the Aventras for the other TOCs not working then?
And are problems with getting them working better or worse than them cracking up in service, like Hitachi and CAF?

 

[Goldfish62]

Are the Aventras for the other TOCs not working then?

The issues with Aventra are well-documented, but in case you weren't aware:

Class 345: poor build quality, late acceptance and appalling reliability.
Class 710: late delivery and issues with acceptance. Poor reliability, but signs of improvement
Class 720: late delivery and acceptance issues. Too early to assess reliability.
Class 730: where to start! Late, issues with cab design, only a handful built so far, entry into service not now expected before 2023.

While Hitachi and CAF have had their issues there's no comparison with the inability of Bombardier/Alstom to actually get the trains built properly, delivered and into service, unless you're going to disagree with the general opinion in the industry!

 

[Meerkat]

The issues with Aventra are well-documented, but in case you weren't aware:

Class 345: poor build quality, late acceptance and appalling reliability.
Class 710: late delivery and issues with acceptance. Poor reliability, but signs of improvement
Class 720: late delivery and acceptance issues. Too early to assess reliability.
Class 730: where to start! Late, issues with cab design, only a handful built so far, entry into service not now expected before 2023.

While Hitachi and CAF have had their issues there's no comparison with the inability of Bombardier/Alstom to actually get the trains built properly, delivered and into service, unless you're going to disagree with the general opinion in the industry!

But then Hitachi and CAF have major cracking issues, and the disruption from taking all a class out of action once in service is worse than a late intro when you can usually run on the old stock.

 

[Goldfish62]

But then Hitachi and CAF have major cracking issues, and the disruption from taking all a class out of action once in service is worse than a late intro when you can usually run on the old stock.

I'm talking about actually getting the trains built, delivered and into service in line with the expectations of the customer when placing the order.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm talking about actually getting the trains built, delivered and into service.

Sure, but the ability to design a train that doesn't structurally fail in service is as applicable to choosing by reputation. And you mention quality control - trains that crack apart are a rather large failure of quality.

 

[Goldfish62]

Sure, but the ability to design a train that doesn't structurally fail in service is as applicable to choosing by reputation. And you mention quality control - trains that crack apart are a rather large failure of quality.

I've actually lost track of what point we're arguing about here.

 

[Wokingham]

They are not going to cancel the order they will wobble into service with a anchor dragging behind them eventually they will work.
The whole industry is on autopilot people have mortgages to pay, the government is busy with other things.

Unless traffic doesn't recover nobody wants to deal with the giant mess of waste and duplication.

GBR is dead as was announced its business as usual to many people loose if everything stops and is dealt with properly.

Why would a turkey vote for Christmas that's not how things work anymore

 

[DanNCL]

Still took them a while to get the 700s right - and I seem to remember there’s still room for improvement…

The 700s are a more complex bit of kit than anything for SWR Metro needs to be, being dual voltage, ATO fitted and ETCS fitted, so it's not surprising they've had a few issues.

So you would always buy a washing machine that has the reputation for blowing up after a couple of months because it's the cheapest?

Obviously that evaluation doesn't work properly then.

Not true. It would be impossible to assess the track record of something that hadn't been built yet. All the orders for Aventras were placed long before the reliability and build quality issues became evident. The evaluation would most probably have assessed Bombardier's track record with Electrostar in lieu of nothing else to go on. Given the huge success of Electrostar it would be more than reasonable to assume that Aventra would follow in its footsteps. No one could have predicted that this would turn out to be so not the case.

The signs that there were issues at Bombardier could already be seen when the orders for the 701s and the 730s were made in 2017 - the 345s at that point were already late entering service, although I'll agree that there was nothing to indicate just how severe the problem would be with the Aventras.

But then Hitachi and CAF have major cracking issues, and the disruption from taking all a class out of action once in service is worse than a late intro when you can usually run on the old stock.

Sure, but the ability to design a train that doesn't structurally fail in service is as applicable to choosing by reputation. And you mention quality control - trains that crack apart are a rather large failure of quality.

I will agree on the matter of the 80x family that Hitachi have done a poor job in nearly every area on them, and the Urbos trams have of course been a disaster from CAF too. However I feel the criticism is unjust for Hitachi's non-high speed product range the 385 (they were grounded once, the single issue that grounded them was resolved fairly quickly and they've now become amongst the UK's most reliable trains) and for CAF's national rail ranges, none of which have been grounded or had problems to anywhere near the same extent as the Aventras. Yes cracks were found on some of the 195s and 331s, but it didn't lead to the entirety of either class being grounded and a fix was found quickly.

 

[Wokingham]

Would you quit your job if you had bills and family to support because you made a mistake.

If you don't then person above has to take it onwards and upwards...

To drag our pm into it some things in this era don't fall for whatever reason

It's not you nicking a tenner from the till or poor performance public project faults are now blameless.

Look at that bridge in Oxfordshire that needs replacing nobody is going to own up to that being a mess, they will just shake the magic money tree and fix it


Don't look up!

 

[DanNCL]

Would you quit your job if you had bills and family to support because you made a mistake.

If you don't then person above has to take it onwards and upwards...

To drag our pm into it some things in this era don't fall for whatever reason

It's not you nicking a tenner from the till or poor performance public project faults are now blameless.

Look at that bridge in Oxfordshire that needs replacing nobody is going to own up to that being a mess, they will just shake the magic money tree and fix it


Don't look up!

Nobody has dragged Boris Johnson into the Class 701 situation...

 

[D365]

The 700s are a more complex bit of kit than anything for SWR Metro needs to be, being dual voltage, ATO fitted and ETCS fitted, so it's not surprising they've had a few issues.

As per 707001/002, at least a few of the 701s will need to be tested on AC electrified routes. And more-than-likely the 701s will need to be ETCS capable anyway.

Nobody has dragged Boris Johnson into the Class 701 situation...

Looks like a post in the wrong thread.

 

[WarrenTManager]

As per 707001/002, at least a few of the 701s will need to be tested on AC electrified routes. And more-than-likely the 701s will need to be ETCS capable anyway.


Looks like a post in the wrong thread.

701s are already fitted with ETCS, note the tag on the right of the photo on the left hand cab side of the 701 saying ETCS isolated. We’ve been told not to go underneath in the pit while the ETCS is active.