Should Thameslink appear on the Tube map? (Now expected to appear in December on Tube map)

[MikeWh]

Wow! I wonder when the next print will be? Maybe December?

The report says by Christmas, so yes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

London Travelwatch have today issued a statement advising that they have persuaded TfL to put TLRailUK services on the next print of the Tube map. Not clear from the statement which stations will be included.

A ( draft? ) map was tweeted a day or two ago showing the inclusion as it would appear, but I can't remember who tweeted it now - might have been Steve White from GTR if anyone wants to trawl Twitter to find it.

 

[rebmcr]

A ( draft? ) map was tweeted a day or two ago showing the inclusion as it would appear, but I can't remember who tweeted it now - might have been Steve White from GTR if anyone wants to trawl Twitter to find it.

Looks like all he did was re-tweet Travelwatch's own design.

 

[Mikey C]

Steve White from GTR

https://twitter.com/SteveWhiteRail/status/1314233598711672835

This retweeted a map, though not an actual tube map

 

[ijmad]

Personally, I'd like to see every station that receives at least 4tph, this would include Elephant and Castle to Bickley, Herne Hill and Tulse Hill, but not the Wimbledon loop. It also would mean adding the Finsbury Park branch.

Frequency of 4tph has long been acknowledged as the minimum "turn up and go" frequency by TfL, even though there are a few edge cases that don't meet this already on the map.

 

[rebmcr]

Including more lines would be a lot more feasible with a unified style. The obsession with giving every different TOC its own colour is completely unnecessary in the context of a regional map.

 

[swt_passenger]

London Travelwatch have today issued a statement advising that they have persuaded TfL to put TLRailUK services on the next print of the Tube map. Not clear from the statement which stations will be included.

TLRailUK?
I hope that’s just Thameslink being autocorrected...

 

[Domh245]

TLRailUK?
I hope that’s just Thameslink being autocorrected...

It's their twitter handle!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's their twitter handle!

Oh right. Not real then.

 

[ijmad]

I wonder if one of the reasons TfL agreed is the Northern Line's Bank branch closure scheduled to last for well over a third of next year. Diverting customers on to Thameslink is seen as one of the key ways to manage the passenger flow.

 

[rebmcr]

I wonder if one of the reasons TfL agreed is the Northern Line's Bank branch closure scheduled to last for well over a third of next year. Diverting customers on to Thameslink is seen as one of the key ways to manage the passenger flow.

I think Andy Byford is going for the diplomatic option, to try and smooth TfL's troubled near-future in the minds of people who need to view it sympathetically.

 

[birchesgreen]

I am in two minds, it probably should appear on the map but the map is a complete mess now which needs a complete rethink from scratch.

 

[Ianno87]

I am in two minds, it probably should appear on the map but the map is a complete mess now which needs a complete rethink from scratch.

Good opportunity is when Crossrail (eventually) opens and is on the map too; it should be fairly 'static' after that.

 

[ijmad]

Good opportunity is when Crossrail (eventually) opens and is on the map too; it should be fairly 'static' after that.

There's not too many more major building projects for a while, but TfL may gain control of more services over the next 5 or 10 years.

For example TfL may get most of GN (everything out of Moorgate), gonna be fun fitting that on.

 

[LeeLivery]

Hurrah! Common sense prevails! I wonder whether it'll be labelled as "Thameslink" or "National Rail"? If it's the former, it may mean the need for better Thameslink branding on signage.

 

[ijmad]

Hurrah! Common sense prevails! I wonder whether it'll be labelled as "Thameslink" or "National Rail"? If it's the former, it may mean the need for better Thameslink branding on signage.

Interesting point. If it's shown as 'Thameslink' on the map people (especially tourists) are going to be looking for the interchange sign that says "Thameslink".

My bet would be on the reintroduction of generic white lines for 'National Rail' services.

 

[matt_world2004]

Are gtr going to be paying towards the costs of being on the map?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are gtr going to be paying towards the costs of being on the map?

GTR - funded by central government, paying TfL - funded by central government?

 

[LeeLivery]

Interesting point. If it's shown as 'Thameslink' on the map people (especially tourists) are going to be looking for the interchange sign that says "Thameslink".

My bet would be on the reintroduction of generic white lines for 'National Rail' services.

Exactly my thinking. I'd prefer "Thameslink" with proper name prominence like the Liz Line will be. However, I'm doubting it'll happen.

 

[ijmad]

Exactly my thinking. I'd prefer "Thameslink" with proper name prominence like the Liz Line will be. However, I'm doubting it'll happen.

Probably comes down to whether TfL should be given control of some or all of Thameslink. Probably not on the cards for the foreseeable.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting point. If it's shown as 'Thameslink' on the map people (especially tourists) are going to be looking for the interchange sign that says "Thameslink".

My bet would be on the reintroduction of generic white lines for 'National Rail' services.

I guess at London Bridge it may not be massively obvious that a "tube" line leaves from Platform 5 in the main station!

 

[ijmad]

I guess at London Bridge it may not be massively obvious that a "tube" line leaves from Platform 5 in the main station!

You think that's bad, imagine not realising and changing from the Victoria Line to Platform A/B at St Pancras

 

[Hadders]

Probably comes down to whether TfL should be given control of some or all of Thameslink. Probably not on the cards for the foreseeable.

I really can't see the point of doing this so I hope it doesn't happen.

 

[rebmcr]

I really can't see the point of doing this so I hope it doesn't happen.

Yes, no matter where the 'boundary' ended up, it would be an unworkable bodge.

 

[LeeLivery]

Yeah, there's no need for TfL taking Thameslink over, especially that far out of London. Paris shows you don't need RATP to run RER C, D & E to be an integral part of the network. You just need co-operation.

 

[Cdd89]

Looking at some of the arguments on this thread, I think the Tube Map is increasingly arbitrary.

• If minimum frequency is the criteria, much of the Overground and TfL Rail doesn’t belong.
• If consistent fare scales are the criteria, the Trams don’t belong.
• If operator is the criteria, then the DLR doesn’t belong.
• If centralness of services is the criteria, then why not Charing X to London Bridge and Waterloo to Wimbledon.
  

I never use the “tube map” (as opposed to the “tube and rail map”) and I don’t understand its purpose really. I think the tube map is most used only because it’s the one TfL make easily accessible.

In reality I suspect most people use neither - making this a moot point - because these days people use journey planners to navigate.

 

[ijmad]

Looking at some of the arguments on this thread, I think the Tube Map is increasingly arbitrary.

• If minimum frequency is the criteria, much of the Overground and TfL Rail doesn’t belong.
• If consistent fare scales are the criteria, the Trams don’t belong.
• If operator is the criteria, then the DLR doesn’t belong.
• If centralness of services is the criteria, then why not Charing X to London Bridge and Waterloo to Wimbledon.

I never use the “tube map” (as opposed to the “tube and rail map”) and I don’t understand its purpose really. I think the tube map is most used only because it’s the one TfL make easily accessible.

In reality I suspect most people use neither - making this a moot point - because these days people use journey planners to navigate.

Actually I think it's very simple. The current 'tube map' is a 'map of all services run by TfL' excluding busses.

Because TfL is now entirely funded by its own ticket revenue, it's not in their interests to promote services where they don't sell the tickets. Thameslink looks like it's going to be a sensible exception, though a far better 'fix' would come up with a sensible revenue/grant model where TfL could show useful high-frequency rail services without fear of kneecapping themselves.

You mention the DLR, but this works much like the Overground, it's a fixed fee management contract I believe. It's still very much a TfL service.

 

[BluePenguin]

Yes, Thameslink definitely belongs on the tube map. TFL have needed to acknowledge its existence for a long time.

Travelling between St Pancras on London Bridge is much more comfortable on Thameslink than the northern line especially with a heavy suitcase. It’s also included on a few national rail tickets.

I think that it is very important that people are aware of all their options and given a choice

 

[rebmcr]

Actually I think it's very simple. The current 'tube map' is a 'map of all services run by TfL' excluding busses.

This definition incorrectly excludes Thames Clippers.

 

[Cdd89]

Actually I think it's very simple. The current 'tube map' is a 'map of all services run by TfL' excluding busses.

In other words it's a map run for the benefit of TfL and nobody else. And as more journeys get arranged via journey planners - so if NR services are the best option, people will be guided toward them - the advantages of the map to TfL are beginning to be chipped away at.

I remain of the view that rather than trying to fix it with the odd service here and there, we need to ditch it entirely and have the R&T map as the only one. If people are only interested in Zone 1 then that's all they need to look at. Even there, maps are not that useful for journey planning because they don't speak to frequency of services - or journey times - or even price - for the route planned to be undertaken.