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Should the legal minimum age for doing certain things be raised or lowered?

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AY1975

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Do you think that the legal minimum age for doing certain things should be raised or lowered?

Currently in the UK (and AFAIK in most other countries at least in Europe, North America and Australasia) 18 is the age of legal majority, i.e. the age at which you legally become an adult and, as such, are considered to be mature enough to have most, if not all, the rights and duties of an adult citizen. In practice, though, the legal minimum age for doing some age-restricted things is lower or higher than 18.

For example the age of consent in the UK is 16, and until recently you could get married at 16 with parental consent (or without it in Scotland). But I believe that a new Act has recently been passed that has raised the legal age for marriage to 18 in all cases (except in Scotland where it's still 16, at least for now, though it remains to be seen whether Scotland will follow suit and raise it to 18).

In many ways this would seem sensible and logical, given that you now have to be in education or training until you're 18, although it raises the question of whether the age of consent (and therefore the age at which you can legally become a parent) should also be raised to 18.

In some ways doing that would be ironic, though, as the age of consent for gay men was 21 until some time in the 1990s or early 2000s when it was lowered to 18, and more recently it was lowered to 16 to bring it into line with the age of consent for heterosexuals and lesbian women.

Conversely, there have been calls from certain quarters for the voting age to be lowered to 16 (as I believe it now is for local elections in Scotland and Wales).

In the USA, the drinking age is 21 even though the age of legal majority in most other respects is 18 in most states. This creates an anomaly whereby at 18 you can do just about everything that an adult can do except drinking: for example at 18 you can vote, get married (but you presumably have to have a dry wedding reception), take out a mortgage, join the armed forces and be called for jury service, but booze remains a forbidden fruit for another three years. IMO it beggars belief that at 18 you're deemed mature enough to do all of those things but not mature enough to be responsible with alcohol.

Some other European countries also have 18 for drinking and some have 16. AIUI in Germany it's 16 for beer and wine and 18 for spirits. I believe that France and the Netherlands have raised their drinking ages from 16 to 18 in the last few years, presumably to combat teenage binge drinking. On the other hand, New Zealand lowered its drinking age from 20 to 18 in the late 1990s or early 2000s, presumably to bring it into line with the age of legal majority.
 
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birchesgreen

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I can only see the AOC being lowered, the right wing bros who seem to dominate our lives now are very keen on this for some reason.
 

nw1

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I can only see the AOC being lowered, the right wing bros who seem to dominate our lives now are very keen on this for some reason.

I can think of one former Conservative MP who would probably be in favour of lowering the age of consent by one year, at least.

On other matters, I would reduce the voting age to 16.

16 and 17 year olds are probably old enough to have sensible opinions about things, and have a lot of life ahead of them. And remember a government elected when you're 17 could stay in power until you're potentially almost 23, impacting upon the earliest years of your adult life. I think young people have a right to be resentful about governments which they didn't even have the chance to elect imposing policies which impact upon their initial years of adulthood. The poll tax is one example I can think of - this impacted greatly on young people yet many such young people were not old enough to have a say in 1987. Is it any wonder there was such anger and resentment?
 
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adc82140

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AOC should be reviewed and should be a sliding scale. We have the situation at the moment that a person aged 16 years and 1 day having consensual intercourse with someone 15 years 364 days is statutory rape. But a 55 year old sleeping with a 16 year old is legal. The AOC should be 15, but with a proviso that the partner is no more than 5 years older until the youngest person reaches the age of 18 (or perhaps 21).
 

PeterC

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AOC should be reviewed and should be a sliding scale. We have the situation at the moment that a person aged 16 years and 1 day having consensual intercourse with someone 15 years 364 days is statutory rape. But a 55 year old sleeping with a 16 year old is legal. The AOC should be 15, but with a proviso that the partner is no more than 5 years older until the youngest person reaches the age of 18 (or perhaps 21).
In all UK jurisdictions the term "Rape" is only used for consensual activity if the child is under 13
/pedant
 

dakta

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AIUI you can now only leave school at 16 if you're doing an apprenticeship or into fulltime education (i.e college)

I don't feel the never-ceasing push of virtually all people into continued learning does everyone good, nor society for that matter so whilst I wouldn't drop the age as such, if you really want to leave school in a proper sense at 16 then you should be able to.
 

PG

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AIUI you can now only leave school at 16 if you're doing an apprenticeship or into fulltime education (i.e college)

I don't feel the never-ceasing push of virtually all people into continued learning does everyone good, nor society for that matter so whilst I wouldn't drop the age as such, if you really want to leave school in a proper sense at 16 then you should be able to.
You can still leave school at 16 in Scotland.
 

Bletchleyite

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Age of consent is an awkward one. I think the Scout Association has probably got that one about right with their internal policy which is that a relationship between an over and under 18 is only acceptable if pre existing when both were under 18 and any conflict of interest must be removed (i.e. the over 18 can't be the under 18's leader or help on an event with them present as that creates the whole duty of care/position of responsibility thing).

Everything else (driving, smoking, voting etc) I'd just standardise on 18, it near enough is anyway. For large vehicles I'd drop the age thing and just require N years of evidenced* car driving experience first regardless of the age you started.

* Hard to evidence directly, but something like proof of being covered by insurance on a car for say 3 years before being allowed anything larger might be a way to do it.

It might seem weird but if a 20 year old wants to have a relationship with an 80 year old that's up to both of them. (There are 11 years between my sister and her husband for instance, they met at uni with her as a 20 year old ish student and him as a mature student). They are a loving family with 3 kids and there's nothing out of order about it at all. Edit: and it was her who approached him first, I'm told!

AIUI you can now only leave school at 16 if you're doing an apprenticeship or into fulltime education (i.e college)

I don't feel the never-ceasing push of virtually all people into continued learning does everyone good, nor society for that matter so whilst I wouldn't drop the age as such, if you really want to leave school in a proper sense at 16 then you should be able to.

I think we need a more (you guessed it) German approach with apprenticeships counting as 16-18 education and being much wider in scope than they are here now. It really works well there.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Legal minimum ages are always going to be arbitrary. The reality is that different people mature into adulthood at different rates, and no-one magically changes from a defenceless, innocent, child into a fully mature, capable, adult in the space of one day on their X'th birthday. So any law saying 'you can do this only after your X'th birthday' is going to be a (hopefully, least-bad) compromise between protecting people who emotionally mature into adulthood more slowly than most, while not wanting to unduly restrict those who mature into adulthood more quickly. If you reduce or raise any of the minimum legal ages, then you are simply replacing one imperfect compromise with another imperfect compromise. Personally, I can't see that doing that is worth all the hassle/expense/parliamentary time of changing the law when the UK has so many more pressing problems. So my vote is to generally leave everything as it is.
 

Trackman

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.. and until recently you could get married at 16 with parental consent (or without it in Scotland). But I believe that a new Act has recently been passed that has raised the legal age for marriage to 18 in all cases (except in Scotland where it's still 16, at least for now, though it remains to be seen whether Scotland will follow suit and raise it to 18).
Next month in comes into force.
 

Mojo

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Age of consent is an awkward one. I think the Scout Association has probably got that one about right with their internal policy which is that a relationship between an over and under 18 is only acceptable if pre existing when both were under 18 and any conflict of interest must be removed (i.e. the over 18 can't be the under 18's leader or help on an event with them present as that creates the whole duty of care/position of responsibility thing).
This makes sense in that the Sexual Offences Act 2003 created a number of offences which makes it illegal for someone in a position of trust aged over 18 to be involved in any form of sexual act with someone under 18. Whilst a scout worker doesn’t count as a position of trust in the law, it was expanded in 2022 to include things like sports coaches and religious ministers which are fairly similar.
 

Bletchleyite

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This makes sense in that the Sexual Offences Act 2003 created a number of offences which makes it illegal for someone in a position of trust aged over 18 to be involved in any form of sexual act with someone under 18. Whilst a scout worker doesn’t count as a position of trust in the law, it was expanded in 2022 to include things like sports coaches and religious ministers which are fairly similar.

It is extremely strange that that law wasn't wider - it indeed doesn't actually encompass a Scout Leader (though the Scout Association's own policy does basically do the same thing, and is enforced strictly) but there's no logic for it not doing - it should apply to anyone in a position of responsibility* over a child - just a badly drafted law I guess.

* An interesting question is whether it should apply to e.g. university lecturers and other similar people in a position of authority over young adults. There's a very strong argument that it should given that these people are often very vulnerable to such influence even though they're not legally Vulnerable Adults (unless they are for some other reason). Though again company policies tend to apply anyway - for instance few businesses will allow a manager to have a relationship with someone under them - if it does happen they tend to reassign roles to remove the conflict.
 

ABB125

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Why would that be so?
Young men are statistically more likely to die whilst driving than any other demographic, I believe.

I fundamentally disagree with encouraging sexism in law* - haven't many people (mostly women) spent their lives trying to remove gender inequality? (Answer - yes, they have)

*Not allowing men to drive until they are (for example) 21, but allowing women to drive at 17 is pure sexism and nothing else (but it's ok, because it's men who are being discriminated against :rolleyes:). I appreciate there may be an argument for this, but there's also an argument that alcohol should be banned because it's consumption causes all sorts of societal ills. But that's not going to happen...
 

gabrielhj07

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Young men are statistically more likely to die whilst driving than any other demographic, I believe.

I fundamentally disagree with encouraging sexism in law* - haven't many people (mostly women) spent their lives trying to remove gender inequality? (Answer - yes, they have)

*Not allowing men to drive until they are (for example) 21, but allowing women to drive at 17 is pure sexism and nothing else (but it's ok, because it's men who are being discriminated against :rolleyes:). I appreciate there may be an argument for this, but there's also an argument that alcohol should be banned because it's consumption causes all sorts of societal ills. But that's not going to happen...
Yes, quite.

Raising the age of driving for everyone will reduce education & employment for anyone who doesn't live near a big city, and raising the driving age just for men will only raise the average age at which we crash :lol:
 

ABB125

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Yes, quite.

Raising the age of driving for everyone will reduce education & employment for anyone who doesn't live near a big city, and raising the driving age just for men will only raise the average age at which we crash :lol:
Very much so. Even where I grew up, with several towns 5-10 miles away, not being able to drive until I was older would have been severely limiting. Even more so if I actually had a social life... :D

ps: you can drive a tractor on the road at 16. If there had been a slight change in family circumstances, that may well have been me too!
 

Bletchleyite

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ps: you can drive a tractor on the road at 16. If there had been a slight change in family circumstances, that may well have been me too!

Or (and quite common with teenagers in car dependent places) a 50cc motorcycle. My sister had one though it never appealed to me.
 

All Line Rover

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The AOC should be 15, but with a proviso that the partner is no more than 5 years older until the youngest person reaches the age of 18 (or perhaps 21).

Lord. You've just criminalised a lot of perfectly ordinary and healthy relationships. See @Bletchleyite's post for but one example.

The AOC is set where it is to avoid criminalising foolish youths. It is not a target set with the aim that everyone should be going at it like rabbits the moment they turn 16.

Personally I would be comfortable with the libertarian approach of setting almost all restrictions at 16, with the view that most young adults would act in accordance with their best interests and not use all their newfound "rights" straight away (except voting). Still, we're talking about the English and Scottish here who seem to have a problem with alcohol in particular, so perhaps I'm being too optimistic.
 

ABB125

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Or (and quite common with teenagers in car dependent places) a 50cc motorcycle. My sister had one though it never appealed to me.
A good few of those in my year at school (naturally, it was mostly people who lived in the countryside rather than the town where the school is). My mum made it very clear that neither I nor my brothers would be permitted to get one, as "they're dangerous". Which brings back loads of fond memories of dangerous things we've done in the past :D

I don't think there'd have been any objection to having a tractor at 16, had circumstances allowed!
 

Bletchleyite

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A good few of those in my year at school (naturally, it was mostly people who lived in the countryside rather than the town where the school is). My mum made it very clear that neither I nor my brothers would be permitted to get one, as "they're dangerous". Which brings back loads of fond memories of dangerous things we've done in the past :D

I don't think there'd have been any objection to having a tractor at 16, had circumstances allowed!

Interestingly my parents have always been more protective of her than me (something I quite often defended her on), but they didn't think they could tell her not to given that they both had one themselves when they were that age.

She did come off once I think (either black ice or an oil spill, I forget) but was generally quite cautious and always wore proper leathers so I don't recall it really doing any damage other than to the paintwork and her pride. We were talking about it at Christmas and I don't think either of her older kids are particularly interested in one (the youngest is too young to really understand).
 

DynamicSpirit

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* An interesting question is whether it should apply to e.g. university lecturers and other similar people in a position of authority over young adults.

I would say 'no' to that. Firstly because, if you recognise that a person is an adult - even if they are young adults, then that goes with recognising that they are entitled to form a consensual relationship with whomever they wish to form a relationship with (Obviously, as long as the other party is also an adult and able to give consent). And secondly because not all students are young. Mature students also exist - as do some very young members of staff.

In fact, a while back I was going out with a woman at University when we were both students (similar age - she was about 2 years younger than me). She subsequently became a member of staff at that university, while I remained a student. I guess according to your proposal, we would have been forced to end our (perfectly good and long-term) relationship as soon as she became a member of staff? ;)

On the other hand, there is a very clear conflict of interest if a student enters a relationship with a person who is directly responsible for or teaching them in any way, plus potential for abuse. I'd fully support a change in the law/or some regulations to ensure that in those circumstances, the member of staff must declare that relationship to their employer, and the University must make arrangements to protect the student from any bias in grading/etc. - which would almost certainly mean as a minimum not allowing the member of staff to have any unsupervised involvement in grading/etc. for that student).
 
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Bletchleyite

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On the other hand, there is a very clear conflict of interest if a student enters a relationship with a person who is directly responsible for or teaching them in any way, plus potential for abuse. I'd fully support a change in the law/or some regulations to ensure that in those circumstances, the member of staff must declare that relationship to their employer, and the University must make arrangements to protect the student from any bias in grading/etc. - which would almost certainly mean as a minimum not allowing the member of staff to have any unsupervised involvement in grading/etc. for that student).

I suspect that is already the case at most if not all universities. Integrity of the grading system is rather important.
 

GusB

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Raising the age at which one can learn to drive would be good, especially for males.
This, of course, would be accompanied by the introduction of a comprehensive public transport system in all parts of the country so that those people who live away from town and city centres are able to access education, work and leisure facilities.

What do you propose to increase the age to - 21? I can hear a collective sigh of relief from all those parents who know that their offspring will be safer from car accidents, followed by a much louder cry of horror as they realise that ParentCabs is going to be in operation for much longer than they anticipated! That assumes that the parents can actually drive in the first place; until I was 16 we were a carless household because my dad only passed his test 18 months before I did. Even then, once I'd passed mine, if you had asked my mum which of us she'd prefer to be in the driving seat, she'd have gone with the more measured, risk-averse driver.

Not all young male drivers are idiots, no matter what the statistics say.

---

On the matter of drinking alcohol, it's not quite a blanket restriction at 18:

Someone aged 16 or 17 and accompanied by an adult, can drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider with a meal at a licensed premises (except in Northern Ireland). But it’s illegal for people this age to drink spirits in a pub anywhere in the UK, even with a meal.
 

Mojo

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I’d leave the voting age and other things such as alcohol where it is at 18, primarily to avoid school children in year 11 being left behind where some people can do things and others not.

I’d say people gain a lot of maturity in those two years (particularly those going to a sixth form college) and thus at the age of 18 it is not a big of an issue.
 

Yew

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I’d leave the voting age and other things such as alcohol where it is at 18, primarily to avoid school children in year 11 being left behind where some people can do things and others not.
That just pushes the problem to year 13 though?
 

Mojo

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That just pushes the problem to year 13 though?
Isn’t so much of an issue at that age though as firstly not everyone is still in education then, secondly study leave and exams start earlier in that year, and thirdly people are already a lot more mature at that age.
 

Yew

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Isn’t so much of an issue at that age though as firstly not everyone is still in education then, secondly study leave and exams start earlier in that year, and thirdly people are already a lot more mature at that age.
I thought the laws had changed so that everyone must do year 13, or a college course of equivalent duration?
 

Mojo

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I thought the laws had changed so that everyone must do year 13, or a college course of equivalent duration?
Not if you’re on an apprenticeship.
 

Barn

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On other matters, I would reduce the voting age to 16.

16 and 17 year olds are probably old enough to have sensible opinions about things, and have a lot of life ahead of them. And remember a government elected when you're 17 could stay in power until you're potentially almost 23, impacting upon the earliest years of your adult life. I think young people have a right to be resentful about governments which they didn't even have the chance to elect imposing policies which impact upon their initial years of adulthood. The poll tax is one example I can think of - this impacted greatly on young people yet many such young people were not old enough to have a say in 1987. Is it any wonder there was such anger and resentment?
It's an interesting one this. I would say that over recent decades 16 and 17 year olds have become "younger" in the public eye. We now expect people of this age to remain in education or training. It is now less likely that a person of this age would now be making their own way in the world without parental support, due to the cost of rent. Many service providers won't deal with people under 18. Even before the changes to marriage law, we would think something had gone slightly wrong were they to marry or have children. A person some way into adulthood would be regarded with suspicion if he had a relationship with a person this age.

In short, we treat people this age as old children rather than young adults. In a world where we (rightly) are more and more concerned to protect and safeguard children, it seems odd that we might simultaneously think of treating them as adults for the purpose of voting.
 
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