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Should the railway be used as a job creation scheme post-COVID?
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PupCuff
Member
I'd be the first to welcome an increase in rail staff headcount, however it's difficult to see anything which would prompt a change from deskilling and destaffing which tends to be the current prevailing policy to the opposite.
Or as a passenger creation scheme?
The railways and the council used to be what were called "overmanned", well it seemed so if profit is the only thing you look for?
You would have say 5 people in a medium station like caterham or epsom whereas now it may be zero, one or two...
some of the "overmanning" was people who were great at say cleaning platforms and other station duties without any supervision at quite a gentle pace, but if asked to do anything outside the normal would find it difficult if they had reduced reading and writing skills ??
So roll on 40 years you now have people with various problems and limited skills who used to be employed by the government in productive rolls with a worthwhile job and a meaning in life such as a porter or bin man etc - but now unemployed, maybe in trouble with the police, possibly on drugs and robbing to pay a habit, sorry if this looks confusing but to me it looks perfectly clear, and perhaps i was one off the ones with reduced reading and writing skills ??
thank you
You would have say 5 people in a medium station like caterham or epsom whereas now it may be zero, one or two...
some of the "overmanning" was people who were great at say cleaning platforms and other station duties without any supervision at quite a gentle pace, but if asked to do anything outside the normal would find it difficult if they had reduced reading and writing skills ??
So roll on 40 years you now have people with various problems and limited skills who used to be employed by the government in productive rolls with a worthwhile job and a meaning in life such as a porter or bin man etc - but now unemployed, maybe in trouble with the police, possibly on drugs and robbing to pay a habit, sorry if this looks confusing but to me it looks perfectly clear, and perhaps i was one off the ones with reduced reading and writing skills ??
thank you
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Bantamzen
Established Member
It would be lovely to think that the railway could perform such a function. However having been told that trains are places that the virus thrives in, and so you must be muzzled to prevent you becoming the reasons that thousands of people will die, I going to go out on a limb here and say I expect rail travel to collapse and that jobs will be lost, not gained.
OK, that all sounds a bit dramatic, but in all seriousness do you really expect the industry to be able to sustain more jobs when a lot of people are likely not to use the network for a very long time thanks to the government's messaging?
OK, that all sounds a bit dramatic, but in all seriousness do you really expect the industry to be able to sustain more jobs when a lot of people are likely not to use the network for a very long time thanks to the government's messaging?
squizzler
Established Member
Yes but look at the straits that the most popular alternative in is...
With less commuting overall level of motoring will certainly reduce, and with it, the justification for car ownership. This will accelerate the trend of "peak car" we have been seeing in recent years. The need to reduce carbon emissions has not gone away, and air quality is something people have more awareness of now.
The economic contraction following our expulsion from the EU will make one-for-one replacement of dinosaur burners with clean but expensive electric models untenable. The future must therefore lie with mobility as a service.
With less commuting overall level of motoring will certainly reduce, and with it, the justification for car ownership. This will accelerate the trend of "peak car" we have been seeing in recent years. The need to reduce carbon emissions has not gone away, and air quality is something people have more awareness of now.
The economic contraction following our expulsion from the EU will make one-for-one replacement of dinosaur burners with clean but expensive electric models untenable. The future must therefore lie with mobility as a service.
I think that it will be difficult to justify increased day-to-day staffing on the railway, over and above what we have now.
There wil be less commuting, and as others have mentioned, the industry will have to work to bring back all of the other types of passengers that have been lost for the time being (not helped by everyone who's not a commuter effectively being forced off the trains for two months, but we are where we are), so it will be a case of getting by with less.
What I do expect to see in many walks of life is the creation of employment through capital investment, and assuming passenger numbers (outside of peak time commuting which will take a hit anyway) don't fall off a cliff, the railway has many projects in the drawer that could be a part of this.
There wil be less commuting, and as others have mentioned, the industry will have to work to bring back all of the other types of passengers that have been lost for the time being (not helped by everyone who's not a commuter effectively being forced off the trains for two months, but we are where we are), so it will be a case of getting by with less.
What I do expect to see in many walks of life is the creation of employment through capital investment, and assuming passenger numbers (outside of peak time commuting which will take a hit anyway) don't fall off a cliff, the railway has many projects in the drawer that could be a part of this.
It shouldn't be about employing more people on the railway to operate the existing service, that wouldn't be a good use of resources.
But building new infrastructure, for example HS2, East-West Rail etc would be an investment for the country, create jobs in construction and the supply chain and leave a legacy for decades to come that will make money for the country and pay back the investment.
But building new infrastructure, for example HS2, East-West Rail etc would be an investment for the country, create jobs in construction and the supply chain and leave a legacy for decades to come that will make money for the country and pay back the investment.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Agreed - passenger numbers will take a while to recover , and I can see a reduction in the timetable/ resource plans on many routes . which will require less trains in service / and everything that goes with that. Hopefully there will be a recovery in numbers , but not necessarily to recent patterns in operation.
The 1920's and 1930's saw a great amount of "public works" which in many areas , apart from the National Grid , school building (think how many schools you went to were new build in various "art-deco" styles ?) a stimulation of the private housing boom through cheap money and a benign planning regime , arterial roads and so on. Even cinema building assisted the Northern steel industries !
Transport wise you had the suburban Tube extensions , large station schemes such as Leeds (new) , Cardiff , Newton Abbot , Swansea High St , smaller stations such as South Kenton , Apsley etc , and large (for the time) power signalling schemes. Most pump primed by tax repeals , loans and other incentives.
theironroad
Established Member
Well if there was an option to increase jobs on the railway then it was now but the government have decided to go down the free labour route.
Thousands of 'journey makers' are currently being hired as volunteers to work at stations.
In the medium term as passenger demand only slowly recovers from its 95% drop I fear that in the medium term there may be a headcount loss.
While capacity is certainly needed right now to help with social distancing, I don't envisage a massive bounce when requirements for SD are dropped (whenever that is).
In places, I can see service levels being cut in the timetable and a freeze in non essential recruitment at the least.
I'd imagine any further headcount reduction could be achieved by a voluntary redundancy programme.
Thousands of 'journey makers' are currently being hired as volunteers to work at stations.
In the medium term as passenger demand only slowly recovers from its 95% drop I fear that in the medium term there may be a headcount loss.
While capacity is certainly needed right now to help with social distancing, I don't envisage a massive bounce when requirements for SD are dropped (whenever that is).
In places, I can see service levels being cut in the timetable and a freeze in non essential recruitment at the least.
I'd imagine any further headcount reduction could be achieved by a voluntary redundancy programme.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That may be no bad thing, particularly in very congested places like the south WCML and Castlefield. If and when custom builds again, hopefully sense will be seen and longer trains will be used instead of excessive frequencies.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's taking advantage, as things like NHS Volunteers are, of the considerable number of people on furlough. Once they go back to work, aside from enthusiasts on weekends, it'll be hard to get such people so you'd have to go back to paying them conventionally.
theironroad
Established Member
I don't know the timeframe the government has in mind for journey makers, but I imagine it can't be much past year end as the need to hand out masks, sanitizer and direct people in one way systems and provide reassurance will surely not be necessary by the new year.
I think using the railways for some job creation (paid on normal rates) should be considered but alas , despite unconvential times, it would be a major ideological 180 for a Tory government.
Looking at the airlines , I'm quite grateful that the government are currently keen to be involved in the railways as being under BA/RY/EJ or others right now doesn't look fun at all.
I'm generally supportive of the Keynsian priniple of the Govt stepping in to ensure full employment, though I would prefer if it was investment in infrastructure, rather than say, increased staffing at stations that wouldn't otherwise be justified. A new set of orders to keep Hitachi/Bombardier open would be welcome though, as lots of engineering disciplines (automotive, aerospace) are going through a tough time. I'd suggest that similar things could also apply to busses and other public works
underbank
Established Member
There are certainly some parts of the railway that need upgrading and it would be a good time to do it - potentially lots of unemployed and also less busy railways. I'm thinking lots of small scale improvements, such as lengthening stations which have only relatively recently been shortened - i.e. stations which used to cater for full length trains now scaled down to just 2 or 3 coaches - in many places, the land will still be there and probably not sold off/built on as it's still within the railway boundary. Some stations still have the full platform, but half the length is fenced off and allowed to grow wild. That type of thing should be relatively quick and cheap. That will allow for longer trains in the future for if passenger numbers return.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Without wishing to invoke a DOO debate, one option to create jobs with genuine value would be an OBS[1] on every presently DOO train. The justification would be an end to the requirement to book assistance for wheelchair use on those services.
[1] Other roles for a second member of staff are available, and this post expresses no particular preference for which, or whether they might open/close doors, dispatch, check tickets, sell KitKats and cups of tea or whatever, merely that they would be available on 100% of trains to place the ramp and load/unload a wheelchair using passenger who could then be sure to be able to turn up on spec at any station with level/lift access to platforms.
theironroad
Established Member
Certainly think infrastructure projects are a way forward and recently the dft progressed 10 candidates for line re-openings.
However, what they need to consider and plan for before announcing a raft of projects is whether the skills are there in sufficient numbers to get the project throut to being commissioned.
You wouldn't want to announce a whole load of electrification projects in various places around the country only to find that there weren't enough trained personnel to actually build and commission it all would you?
That would certainly be a benefit. A train without any non-driving member of staff present seems like a poor customer environment - something the railway will need to avoid in the coming months. It might be possible to cover that requirement with re-deployment though.
You wouldn't want to announce a whole load of electrification projects in various places around the country only to find that there weren't enough trained personnel to actually build and commission it all would you?
Certainly so, but I still feel there are lots of more generic things that don't require railway-specific skills. An off the cuff example would be refreshing stations, which seems as if it would be manageable with more generalised construction teams.
Even if there was an ambitions electrification programme, it wouldn't be a bad time to start taking on new staff, our carbon goals aren't going to meet themselves.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Safety and training considerations apart - a national trackside and graffiti / vegetation clearance programme might be in order. Relatively unskilled and fairly effective.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd love to see the justification for gating and staffing Altnabreac
(I suspect any such scheme would need to have designated Paytrain lines
)I'd love to see the justification for gating and staffing Altnabreac
(I suspect any such scheme would need to have designated Paytrain lines
OK, yes, there are stations that are at the bottom of the list but even without those, there are still many stations which could justify barriers. For example, pretty much any route with a commuter flow would be perfectly appropriate for barriers and first to last staffing. Even if we started with currently ungated stations in the conurbations it could create some level of employment.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
True, and Merseyrail does maintain this at all but a very small number of stations (but including some very quiet ones like Aughton Park), though it has been noted that the quality of the staff is in some cases a little lacking.
Perhaps with the simplified ticketing that is oft promised, it wouldn't matter if the staff were not well trained.
Merseyrail is a bit odd - the ticket offices are staffed but there has been no widespread extension of gating outside the main stations, presumably due to there not being enough space - you would think that the ticket office staff could have a dual role and do excess fares / watch barriers as part of their job.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
True, and they don't have problems with Merseyrail's simplified ticketing, the options being Anytime Day Single or Return, a day ticket or a Saveaway on Walrus (both valid after 9:30 until close), plus a few relatively simple season ticket options.
There is absolutely no point in creating jobs on the railway (or any other business) that add to the day to day costs of operating that business unless employing those people would bring in more than the cost of employing them (salary plus NI, pension, other benefits on costs). It would just make the business less efficient. Ideas for more onboard staff or barrier staff are highly unlikely to bring in more revenue than the cost of employing them.
As I said earlier what is worth doing is infrastructure projects that are an investment in the business. Things that increase the efficiency of the business and productivity of the nation in the long term. HS2, East-West Rail and dare I say it new roads fit this criteria. In the short term they provide large numbers of jobs and int he long term allow better efficiency and productivity.
As I said earlier what is worth doing is infrastructure projects that are an investment in the business. Things that increase the efficiency of the business and productivity of the nation in the long term. HS2, East-West Rail and dare I say it new roads fit this criteria. In the short term they provide large numbers of jobs and int he long term allow better efficiency and productivity.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Also if the economy recovers as the government would like, without the immigration that the government doesn't like, we may be facing labour shortages in the future.
It's debatable whether new roads actually improve efficiency, because of the induced demand effect that fills them up with discretionary traffic so the people who have to use the road find the journey isn't much better. But they are undoubtedly easier to get off the ground in large numbers than new railways are, if you're looking for job creation in the design and construction industries.
theironroad
Established Member
Absolutely and long overdue.
The training bit shouldn be an issue, though I guess finding spare NR staff to supervise the projects might be a push. Unfortunately a lot of the stuff track level would probably need a possession and there start the issues.....
Is not about business efficiency and the bottom line, it's about the government getting people into jobs and money in their pockets to spend to stop the economy defending into a multi year depression. Rather than paying universal credit, pay people to do a job and be able to stimulate demand elsewhere in the economy.
This isn't a corporate profit maximisation scheme , it's getting people into work.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Yes - both good points - and worthy of consideration. Getting people into work is incredibly important. Trickle down effects into the economy and all that.
On the first point - (veg clearance and painting) - a lot could be done on green zone working or similar. Ideally with local teams to reduce reliance on outbased contractors.
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